[Foundation-l] Bosnia's Top Cultural Institutions Shutting Down

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[Foundation-l] Wikimania 2012 now...

emijrp

7 Jan 2012 7 Jan '12

1:01 p.m.

Dear all; Bosnia's top cultural institutions[1] (National Museum, Historical Museum, National Gallery) and the National Library which was burnt in 1992, are closing their doors for funding disputes. This is a disaster for the spreading of human knowledge, and I don't see any blog post in the Wikimedia blog. Are you so worried and biased with the US bills? Imagine the WMF reaction if Library of Congress closes. Regards, emijrp [1] http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=144755322

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geni

7 Jan 7 Jan

3:02 p.m.

On 7 January 2012 13:01, emijrp <emijrp(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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emijrp

4:53 p.m.

It is sure that LOC is in the top priorities for Americans, and the BNL for Serbians, don't you think so? Thanks for showing your patent chauvinism. Funding disputes can be sorted out in the same fashion SOPA disputes, if agents work to solve them and show interest. We can't say we care about all human knowledge when we give priority to cases depending on our birthplace. 2012/1/7 geni <geniice(a)gmail.com>

...

On 7 January 2012 13:01, emijrp <emijrp(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Dear all; Bosnia's top cultural institutions[1] (National Museum, Historical

Museum,

National Gallery) and the National Library which was burnt in 1992, are closing their doors for funding disputes. This is a disaster for the spreading of human knowledge, and I don't see any blog post in the Wikimedia blog. Are you so worried and biased with

the

US bills? Imagine the WMF reaction if Library of Congress closes.

Well lets face it the LOC and the Bosnian National Library are not really in the same league. In any case is there any particular reason to think that the funding disputes wont eventually be sorted out? -- geni _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

geni

7:05 p.m.

On 7 January 2012 16:53, emijrp <emijrp(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

It is sure that LOC is in the top priorities for Americans, and the BNL for Serbians, don't you think so? Thanks for showing your patent chauvinism.

Never ever imply that I am American again.

...

Funding disputes can be sorted out in the same fashion SOPA disputes, if agents work to solve them and show interest.

We are not interested in sorting out the SOPA dispute. We want to stop SOPA happening. Different ballgame

...

We can't say we care about all human knowledge when we give priority to cases depending on our birthplace.

Yes and I'm British. The reality is that museums and libraries close all the time for various reasons. There isn't much we can do about it. The National and University Library of Bosnia and Herzegovina had 1.5 million books when it was largely destroyed in 1992. The British Library has just under 14 million books and 150 million documents total. The library of congress is much the same. So as I said slightly different league, -- geni

Yaroslav M. Blanter

7:17 p.m.

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Yes and I'm British. The reality is that museums and libraries close all the time for various reasons. There isn't much we can do about it.

Well, just in this case a GLAM/GLAM-like initiative could help enormously, taking the museum expositions online. The problem is that AFAIR we do not have a Bosnian Chapter, and I doubt we have anyone residing in Saraevo to sort out the issues. Though it might be not a bad investment of WMF funds if someone agrees to take a lead. Cheers Yaroslav

Strainu

7:38 p.m.

2012/1/7 geni <geniice(a)gmail.com>om>:

...

We can't say we care about all human knowledge when we give priority to cases depending on our birthplace.

J Alexandr Ledbury-Romanov

7:52 p.m.

I'm struggling to see *why* people are arguing over whose cultural institution is larger/more important than the other's. Surely the point, as Yaroslav suggests, is to see how the WMF might be able to get involved ? Alex 2012/1/7 Strainu <strainu10(a)gmail.com>

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2012/1/7 geni <geniice(a)gmail.com>om>:

We can't say we care about all human knowledge when we give priority to cases depending on our birthplace.

That's an awful thing to say, but so specific to representatives of anglo-saxon culture (sic!). Why don't you think of it this way: The National and University Library of Bosnia and Herzegovina had X million books from Bosnian authors. How many does the British Library has? I'm guessing much less than X. Strainu _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

emijrp

8:12 p.m.

2012/1/7 geni <geniice(a)gmail.com>

...

On 7 January 2012 16:53, emijrp <emijrp(a)gmail.com> wrote:

It is sure that LOC is in the top priorities for Americans, and the BNL

for

Serbians, don't you think so? Thanks for showing your patent chauvinism.

Never ever imply that I am American again.

I'm not implying that you are American. I'm just saying that you are an ignorant chauvinist. The Historical Museum of Bosnia and Herzegovina holds 400,000 artifacts. Any National Cultural Institution closing is a disaster.

Ole Palnatoke Andersen

8:34 p.m.

On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 9:12 PM, emijrp <emijrp(a)gmail.com> wrote: ...

...

I'm not implying that you are American. I'm just saying that you are an ignorant chauvinist.

And there ends my subscription to Foundation-L. -- http://palnatoke.org * @palnatoke * +4522934588

David Gerard

8:39 p.m.

On 7 January 2012 20:12, emijrp <emijrp(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

The Historical Museum of Bosnia and Herzegovina holds 400,000 artifacts. Any National Cultural Institution closing is a disaster.

Yes, it is. So what's the game plan? - d.

emijrp

9:13 p.m.

2012/1/7 David Gerard <dgerard(a)gmail.com>

...

On 7 January 2012 20:12, emijrp <emijrp(a)gmail.com> wrote:

The Historical Museum of Bosnia and Herzegovina holds 400,000 artifacts. Any National Cultural Institution closing is a disaster.

Yes, it is. So what's the game plan?

I'm not sure. If the WMF goals are to collect/preserve/disseminate educational content, they can start with the holdings in endangered cultural institutions. It is not my work, but some suggestions, from low to high involvement: * blog post exposing the events * a call to the museums, showing that we are concerned * offering wikimedia projects to host any materials they want to give * marathon to create related articles * organize a "Wiki Invades..." to take photos and notes of the collections * wikipedian in residence and put some money to fund some activities * any other high profile partnership And read international news related to our long-term goals. Regards, emijrp

Yaroslav M. Blanter

9:25 p.m.

On Sat, 7 Jan 2012 22:13:58 +0100, emijrp <emijrp(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

2012/1/7 David Gerard <dgerard(a)gmail.com>

On 7 January 2012 20:12, emijrp <emijrp(a)gmail.com> wrote:

The Historical Museum of Bosnia and Herzegovina holds 400,000 artifacts. Any National Cultural Institution closing is a disaster.

Yes, it is. So what's the game plan?

...

high involvement: * blog post exposing the events * a call to the museums, showing that we are concerned * offering wikimedia projects to host any materials they want to give * marathon to create related articles * organize a "Wiki Invades..." to take photos and notes of the

collections

...

* wikipedian in residence and put some money to fund some activities * any other high profile partnership And read international news related to our long-term goals. Regards, emijrp

May be checking with WM Serbia (I am not sure they can do anything, but it would be good to know) and leaving a message on Serbian Wikipedia asking for advise/clarification/actions. Everybody can leave this message, but probably the most efficient would be to find someone who speaks Serbian. Cheers Yaroslav

David Gerard

9:30 p.m.

On 7 January 2012 21:13, emijrp <emijrp(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

You realise that having raised it, you're the volunteer who gets to do the coordination and heavy lifting ;-) Are there any nearby local Wikimedia chapters/groups or similar groups (CC, librarians, etc) reading this who can help?

...

And read international news related to our long-term goals.

This was the very first I'd heard of it, I glance at the news ... so thanks for alerting us :-) I see it's hit the news big time now, e.g. http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Bosnian-closure-threatened-museum-get… and 185 similar articles on Google News ... - d.

Kevin Gorman

11:36 p.m.

Although the problem has not been solved, it appears that it has at least been staved off: http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9S3I7DO1.htm ---- Kevin Gorman User:Kgorman-UCB

Milos Rancic

11:57 p.m.

On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 00:36, Kevin Gorman <kgorman(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Although the problem has not been solved, it appears that it has at least been staved off: http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9S3I7DO1.htm

Obviously, cultural institutions are in bad situation and not just in Bosnia, but in the whole region, at least. However, I think that this is a kind of hard move to raise awareness about the problem. Besides that, there are no Wikimedia goals in any kind of structural help to GLAM institutions from the region. If they are aware of free knowledge, they usually oppose to it, or, at best, they are not able to articulate sensible decision because of their internal problems. Every involvement should be carefully analyzed and just clearly knowledge-liberating projects should be supported.

geni

8 Jan 8 Jan

12:16 a.m.

On 7 January 2012 21:30, David Gerard <dgerard(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Wikimedia Serbia. I'm sure you see the problem. Wikimedia Macedonia isn't much of an improvement. Beyond that there is Hungary but I understand there may be some historic issues. I guess that would leave us with Italy and there is a fair bit of water in the way. For most Wikipedians bosnia-herzegovina is a far away country of which we know little and we need to be honest about that.

...

And read international news related to our long-term goals.

This was the very first I'd heard of it, I glance at the news ... so thanks for alerting us :-)

It made it to the front page of the BBC news website. -- geni

emijrp

16 Jan 16 Jan

5:31 p.m.

2012/1/7 emijrp <emijrp(a)gmail.com>

...

2012/1/7 David Gerard <dgerard(a)gmail.com>

On 7 January 2012 20:12, emijrp <emijrp(a)gmail.com> wrote:

The Historical Museum of Bosnia and Herzegovina holds 400,000 artifacts. Any National Cultural Institution closing is a disaster.

Yes, it is. So what's the game plan?

WMF reply to this thread http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Field_cricket_Gryllus_pennsylvanicus.ogg Step 1 was not taken yet.

...

Regards, emijrp

David Gerard

5:52 p.m.

On 16 January 2012 17:31, emijrp <emijrp(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

WMF reply to this thread http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Field_cricket_Gryllus_pennsylvanicus.ogg Step 1 was not taken yet.

As I noted, you want it to happen, you would be the person to write the post. - d.

emijrp

6:40 p.m.

2012/1/16 David Gerard <dgerard(a)gmail.com>

...

On 16 January 2012 17:31, emijrp <emijrp(a)gmail.com> wrote:

WMF reply to this thread

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Field_cricket_Gryllus_pennsylvanicus.ogg

Step 1 was not taken yet.

As I noted, you want it to happen, you would be the person to write the post.

If I write that post, I will post it on my blog. Making WMF work is not my interest. My interest is to remark the biased behaviour of them and post some suggestions.

David Gerard

7:44 p.m.

On 16 January 2012 18:40, emijrp <emijrp(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

If I write that post, I will post it on my blog. Making WMF work is not my interest. My interest is to remark the biased behaviour of them and post some suggestions.

Handy hint for the future: this is volunteer land. If you really want something to happen with the Wikimedia name attached, an effective method is to do quite a bit of it yourself in a manner that uses the resources available. An ineffective method is to post about how awful other people are for not having already done it for you. - d.

emijrp

8:21 p.m.

2012/1/16 David Gerard <dgerard(a)gmail.com>

...

On 16 January 2012 18:40, emijrp <emijrp(a)gmail.com> wrote:

If I write that post, I will post it on my blog. Making WMF work is not

interest. My interest is to remark the biased behaviour of them and post some suggestions.

No. Me and you (probably) are in volunteer land. They are in paid land, so it is their job. I spend much time working for free for these wiki projects. I don't have more resources, money or time to spend on more stuff. But I know what I have to do the next time I see a dangerous cultural situation that need help. I won't give a damn.

David Gerard

8:33 p.m.

On 16 January 2012 20:21, emijrp <emijrp(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

But I know what I have to do the next time I see a dangerous cultural situation that need help. I won't give a damn.

If you post about it in a manner that doesn't come across like an abusive idiot, you may get further. It's worth a try!! - d.

emijrp

9:02 p.m.

2012/1/16 David Gerard <dgerard(a)gmail.com>

...

On 16 January 2012 20:21, emijrp <emijrp(a)gmail.com> wrote:

But I know what I have to do the next time I see a dangerous cultural situation that need help. I won't give a damn.

If you post about it in a manner that doesn't come across like an abusive idiot, you may get further. It's worth a try!!

I have proposed several high profile and long-term important projects to WMF goals before this one for months, like the archive of all external links and references at Internet Archive/WebCitation to preserve all our sources,[1] or the XML dumps mirroring using universities network resources.[2] None of them had success because WMF didn't give a damn. Patience has its limits. You say that I'm an idiot, you have no memory. But man, no problem, enjoy attacking the wrong side. Regards, emijrp [1] http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-August/060646.html [2] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mirroring_Wikimedia_project_XML_dumps

geni

8 Jan 8 Jan

12:06 a.m.

On 7 January 2012 20:12, emijrp <emijrp(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

I'm not implying that you are American. I'm just saying that you are an ignorant chauvinist.

Oh no nothing so nice I'm afraid. I'm a person who takes a genuinely internationalist view.

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The Historical Museum of Bosnia and Herzegovina holds 400,000 artifacts. Any National Cultural Institution closing is a disaster.

How much did you care when Birmingham's Museum of Science and Industry closed? Cold hard maths says that the Bosnian institutions are of only limited international significance. The fact that the English Wikipedia articles are not only short but lack interlanguage links to any other languages including members of the south slavic diasystem particularly doesn't look good. But even if we accept them as first rank institutions that we really should care about, the funding issues appear to involve a bunch of local political and ethnic issues that it is unlikely that anyone at the foundation really understands. So trying to get involved would first involve understanding what is actually going on which we don't really have the resources to do. -- geni

David Gerard

7 Jan 7 Jan

7:45 p.m.

On 7 January 2012 16:53, emijrp <emijrp(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Ignoring Geni for the moment, it's clearly a very bad thing to happen. Is there something we can meaningfully do to help in this case? Are there groups working on the problem we can lend a hand or our good name to? - d.

Kevin Gorman

8:58 p.m.

The WMF isn't telepathic, at least to the best of my knowledge. Before you sent this did you have any reason to believe that the WMF was already aware of the situation and its significance? If not - this email chain probably would have been more likely to be productive if your first email was just "This is kind of a big deal and I don't see any blog post up about it yet, can I write one?" I've always found that all other things being equal, people are much more likely to want to assist me if I'm not already assuming that their actions are malicious. ---- Kevin Gorman User:Kgorman-ucb On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 5:01 AM, emijrp <emijrp(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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phoebe ayers

9:09 p.m.

Thanks Kevin :) Yes, I am a professional librarian who follows such things (and listens to NPR!) and I somehow missed this story. I don't think it is a well known or reported on event. Thank you for bringing it to everyone's attention, it sounds like a tragedy. Following David, if anyone has suggested actions to take that would be great. -- phoebe On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Kevin Gorman <kgorman(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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_______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

-- * I use this address for lists; send personal messages to phoebe.ayers <at> gmail.com *

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participants (10)

David Gerard
emijrp
geni
J Alexandr Ledbury-Romanov
Kevin Gorman
Milos Rancic
Ole Palnatoke Andersen
phoebe ayers
Strainu
Yaroslav M. Blanter