Hoi, You indicate that Wikijunior is a WMF trademark... I would not be so sure about that. Is there somewhere a link that indicates this is the case ?

NB a domain does not make a trademark Thanks, GerardM On 5/30/07, Robert Horning <robert_horning(a)netzero.net> wrote: > Gerard Dummer wrote: >> Hi, >> >> My name is Gerard Dummer and one of the people who started WikiKids.nl. > WikiKids started as a project to write an encyclopedia for and by children. >> When we started with this project (janauary 2006) we had no idea what > you could do with a wiki. And we didn't know if it would work. But we knew > that we started a project that could have a great impact on education. That > we could realize an authentic learning environment for children. Unlike any > other project before to integrate ICT in education. To be precise: for > children in the age of 8 - 13. >> Along the way we learned quite a lot of things. That is to say about the > technical aspect as well as the educational aspects. This is a process that > continues untill now and I believe will for the next few years. >> There are two main goals: 1)provide information for children to use in > assigments 2) create a writing environment. >> This is a projected that is most of all an educational project. On the > OnderwijsPortaal (EductionPortal) teacher can find different lessonplans, > webquests, why they should use WikiKids in their classes and so on: > http://kennisnet.wikia.com/wikikids/wiki/Portaal:Onderwijs >> This project differs from WikiJunior as mentioned by Mathias. >> @Robert. I have no experiences with other WikiMedia projects so I can't > say anything about that. I very much believe that children can write > articles for eachother. That doesn't mean that the articles are all perfect. > But even an article that isn't finished is an opportunity for other children > to rewrite that article to improve it. That is of course trying to use a > weakness as a strength. >> I am very sorry to hear that there where any hostilities. I can't image > that we would be hostile to any other Wikimediagroup. I hope this is a > misunderstanding or that there is an other explanation. >> Also if you could tell something more about what you mean with a > "motivated leader". What "next step" should be taken? >> @Matthias >> Anyone can contribute on WikiKids. Children, teens and adults. Just as > long as the subjects are suitable. Just as on Vikidia teenagers also play an > important role. Some are sysop. >> I agree also with that fact that children can write about a subject. But > we also try to stimulate to write an article with a group of children or a > class. Everyone can contribute that way. >> Gerard Dummer >> www.wikikids.nl >> > This mailing list, in addition to general business about the Wikimedia > Foundation, also tends to be a discussion forum for new project ideas. > This can take the form of both non-wiki as well as wiki-based projects, > and a major reason for this is due to the new projects page on the Meta > wiki requesting that individuals wishing to start new projects like this > contact this very list. I've been lurking (and occasionally adding my > $0.02 cents along the way) on this mailing list for more than two years, > and I've seen these proposals come and go. Some have been successful > and have produced their own independent communities, and a couple have > even become full Wikimedia sister projects. I've even been involved > with some of that effort on a few different levels. > > What I'm talking about here with a "motivated leader" in regards to > actually starting a new Wikimedia sister project, as opposed to > advertising some wiki-based website that you are seeking some > cooperation, is that you can't "own" the idea yourself, no matter how > hard you try. There is a certain bureaucratic process that goes into > establishing a sister project, and I'm beginning to see a bit of wisdom > to that process as well. I should note that 95% (I think it is actually > worse than this) of all new project ideas are shot down or left in a > sort of "development hell" (to borrow a term from the motion picture > industry) where a couple of ideas keep recurring, but don't seem to take > off for some reason or another. A children's oriented encyclopedia > happens to be one of those recurring ideas, I should point out, and you > nor those you are working with are the first to come up with this idea. > I don't think you will be the last to bring it up in this forum either. > > A small number of these projects actually get to the point that instead > of "waiting" for approval from the WMF, they simply go and start their > own independent wiki server. The disadvantage of this is that the > relationship with the other Wikimedia projects tends to be quite a bit > weaker, and many contributors don't see a relationship at all. The > advantages and disadvantages of becoming a Wikimedia sister project are > too numerous to mention in a short post, but I could write a multi page > paper on that from my experience at this point. Perhaps I should for an > upcoming Wikimania :) > > To cut to the point, you have been trying to defend your project here on > this mailing list, and I'm still not entirely sure what it is that you > would like to see happen ultimately with this project proposal of yours > if everything went exactly as you would like it to happen. If your goal > here was merely to let people know that your project exists and that you > are recruiting individuals to help out, by itself that isn't a terrible > thing, but I would note that there are much more effective places and > means to "advertise" a non-foundation wiki than on this Foundation > mailing list. I've given some mild criticism, but at the same time this > is something that I too would like to developed further. I should also > note that nearly all of the "regular" people who post to this list are > usually *very* busy with life, and what free time they have it already > devoted to some Wikimedia project, whether as an administrator or key > user/community leader on one of the Wikimedia sister projects or with > some aspect of the Wikimedia Foundation. I would much more strongly > recommend that you post something on one of the Village Pump pages on > Wikipedia if this is your goal, and you will have much more success for > your effort. > > The reason I bring up Wikijunior is because there are people who read > the discussion pages for Wikijunior that may have a bit more time on > their hands, looking for something more to do that is very similar in > nature to what they are already doing with Wikijunior. And posting a > message on those talk pages is not likely to be lost in the pages of > debate that sometimes rage on the Village Pump or other high volume > discussion forii. There are topics on the English Wikijunior talk page > that are over a year old.... and they do get read by new users all of > the time. The French Wikijunior talk page has only a couple of comments > on it, and the Dutch Wikijunior talk page is still blank. The Dutch > Wikibooks "Staff Lounge" > (http://nl.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Lerarenkamer) does have some > modest discussion about Wikijunior, including some recent comments from > what I can see that the Wikimedia trademark "Wikijunior" in the form of > (http://www.wikijunior.nl) is currently redirecting to your project. > I'll leave that point alone for now, but that may be a minor problem > that perhaps should be corrected. > > I hope that your site remains successful, and there certainly is a > learning curve to try and maintain a healthy wiki site. > > Robert Horning > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l >

There is a certain bureaucratic process that goes into establishing a sister project, and I'm beginning to see a bit of wisdom to that process as well. I should note that 95% (I think it is actually worse than this) of all new project ideas are shot down or left in a sort of "development hell" (to borrow a term from the motion picture industry) where a couple of ideas keep recurring, but don't seem to take off for some reason or another. A children's oriented encyclopedia happens to be one of those recurring ideas, I should point out, and you nor those you are working with are the first to come up with this idea. I don't think you will be the last to bring it up in this forum either.

(...) I'm still not entirely sure what it is that you would like to see happen ultimately with this project proposal of yours if everything went exactly as you would like it to happen.

This becomes a bit confusing for me. I only posted on this list because Matthias pointed out the discussion that was going on this list. I do not at this moment see any reason to become an Wikimedia sister project. I don't even know what that means. What are the advantages? This also isn't really a project proposal. WikiKids isn't an project in the "development hell". It is up and running. Maybe this was the wrong place to post a message. Again, I only posted here to explain what WikiKids is. There already is a small community around WikiKids in the Netherlands. And it's growing. Also with people from Belgium (Flanders).

Mathias Damour wrote: actually take would really like to develop further. I hope you don't want this project to be left in a "sort of development hell" for years ! Anyway we are not in a "development hell" right now. that this to happen: same, as those of WikiKids.nl would be kept, nevertheless try to simulate or help other Vikidia-type encyclopedia in other languages, and let them be coordinated, but we won't use this mailing-list for that. So I guess you would like sister project status for at least the French version of this project. BTW, in regards to "development hell", see this Wikipedia article on the topic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_hell This was my intention. And as a Wikimedia sister project, this proposal certainly is in this state at the moment, even though you have an active "demo project" at the moment. If you don't want "approval" from the WMF, but are here to merely advertise your project, this term simply doesn't apply, although by your own admission you have gone through some of the same growth stages that nearly all Wiki projects go through at one point or another. One of the significant advantages of becoming a Wikimedia sister project is that you have some people who can help out to deal with some of these growing pains and help with both administrative overhead and establishing basic policies that seem to work. Mainly some considerable experience with leadership of massive volunteer collaborative writing groups. Also, if this is to become a sister project, some sort of effort must happen to work with those who are currently producing Wikijunior content. And the two "communities" must simply have a much higher level of cooperation than seems to currently exist. I'm also strongly suggesting that this cooperation still happen even if Wikikids stays as a completely independent group apart from being associated with the Wikimedia Foundation. _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l