Hi,
My name is Gerard Dummer and one of the people who started WikiKids.nl. WikiKids started as a project to write an encyclopedia for and by children. When we started with this project (janauary 2006) we had no idea what you could do with a wiki. And we didn't know if it would work. But we knew that we started a project that could have a great impact on education. That we could realize an authentic learning environment for children. Unlike any other project before to integrate ICT in education. To be precise: for children in the age of 8 - 13. Along the way we learned quite a lot of things. That is to say about the technical aspect as well as the educational aspects. This is a process that continues untill now and I believe will for the next few years. There are two main goals: 1)provide information for children to use in assigments 2) create a writing environment. This is a projected that is most of all an educational project. On the OnderwijsPortaal (EductionPortal) teacher can find different lessonplans, webquests, why they should use WikiKids in their classes and so on: http://kennisnet.wikia.com/wikikids/wiki/Portaal:Onderwijs This project differs from WikiJunior as mentioned by Mathias. @Robert. I have no experiences with other WikiMedia projects so I can't say anything about that. I very much believe that children can write articles for eachother. That doesn't mean that the articles are all perfect. But even an article that isn't finished is an opportunity for other children to rewrite that article to improve it. That is of course trying to use a weakness as a strength. I am very sorry to hear that there where any hostilities. I can't image that we would be hostile to any other Wikimediagroup. I hope this is a misunderstanding or that there is an other explanation. Also if you could tell something more about what you mean with a "motivated leader". What "next step" should be taken? @Matthias Anyone can contribute on WikiKids. Children, teens and adults. Just as long as the subjects are suitable. Just as on Vikidia teenagers also play an important role. Some are sysop. I agree also with that fact that children can write about a subject. But we also try to stimulate to write an article with a group of children or a class. Everyone can contribute that way.
Gerard Dummer www.wikikids.nl
Gerard Dummer wrote:
Hi,
My name is Gerard Dummer and one of the people who started WikiKids.nl. WikiKids started as a project to write an encyclopedia for and by children. When we started with this project (janauary 2006) we had no idea what you could do with a wiki. And we didn't know if it would work. But we knew that we started a project that could have a great impact on education. That we could realize an authentic learning environment for children. Unlike any other project before to integrate ICT in education. To be precise: for children in the age of 8 - 13. Along the way we learned quite a lot of things. That is to say about the technical aspect as well as the educational aspects. This is a process that continues untill now and I believe will for the next few years. There are two main goals: 1)provide information for children to use in assigments 2) create a writing environment. This is a projected that is most of all an educational project. On the OnderwijsPortaal (EductionPortal) teacher can find different lessonplans, webquests, why they should use WikiKids in their classes and so on: http://kennisnet.wikia.com/wikikids/wiki/Portaal:Onderwijs This project differs from WikiJunior as mentioned by Mathias. @Robert. I have no experiences with other WikiMedia projects so I can't say anything about that. I very much believe that children can write articles for eachother. That doesn't mean that the articles are all perfect. But even an article that isn't finished is an opportunity for other children to rewrite that article to improve it. That is of course trying to use a weakness as a strength. I am very sorry to hear that there where any hostilities. I can't image that we would be hostile to any other Wikimediagroup. I hope this is a misunderstanding or that there is an other explanation. Also if you could tell something more about what you mean with a "motivated leader". What "next step" should be taken? @Matthias Anyone can contribute on WikiKids. Children, teens and adults. Just as long as the subjects are suitable. Just as on Vikidia teenagers also play an important role. Some are sysop. I agree also with that fact that children can write about a subject. But we also try to stimulate to write an article with a group of children or a class. Everyone can contribute that way.
Gerard Dummer www.wikikids.nl
This mailing list, in addition to general business about the Wikimedia Foundation, also tends to be a discussion forum for new project ideas. This can take the form of both non-wiki as well as wiki-based projects, and a major reason for this is due to the new projects page on the Meta wiki requesting that individuals wishing to start new projects like this contact this very list. I've been lurking (and occasionally adding my $0.02 cents along the way) on this mailing list for more than two years, and I've seen these proposals come and go. Some have been successful and have produced their own independent communities, and a couple have even become full Wikimedia sister projects. I've even been involved with some of that effort on a few different levels.
What I'm talking about here with a "motivated leader" in regards to actually starting a new Wikimedia sister project, as opposed to advertising some wiki-based website that you are seeking some cooperation, is that you can't "own" the idea yourself, no matter how hard you try. There is a certain bureaucratic process that goes into establishing a sister project, and I'm beginning to see a bit of wisdom to that process as well. I should note that 95% (I think it is actually worse than this) of all new project ideas are shot down or left in a sort of "development hell" (to borrow a term from the motion picture industry) where a couple of ideas keep recurring, but don't seem to take off for some reason or another. A children's oriented encyclopedia happens to be one of those recurring ideas, I should point out, and you nor those you are working with are the first to come up with this idea. I don't think you will be the last to bring it up in this forum either.
A small number of these projects actually get to the point that instead of "waiting" for approval from the WMF, they simply go and start their own independent wiki server. The disadvantage of this is that the relationship with the other Wikimedia projects tends to be quite a bit weaker, and many contributors don't see a relationship at all. The advantages and disadvantages of becoming a Wikimedia sister project are too numerous to mention in a short post, but I could write a multi page paper on that from my experience at this point. Perhaps I should for an upcoming Wikimania :)
To cut to the point, you have been trying to defend your project here on this mailing list, and I'm still not entirely sure what it is that you would like to see happen ultimately with this project proposal of yours if everything went exactly as you would like it to happen. If your goal here was merely to let people know that your project exists and that you are recruiting individuals to help out, by itself that isn't a terrible thing, but I would note that there are much more effective places and means to "advertise" a non-foundation wiki than on this Foundation mailing list. I've given some mild criticism, but at the same time this is something that I too would like to developed further. I should also note that nearly all of the "regular" people who post to this list are usually *very* busy with life, and what free time they have it already devoted to some Wikimedia project, whether as an administrator or key user/community leader on one of the Wikimedia sister projects or with some aspect of the Wikimedia Foundation. I would much more strongly recommend that you post something on one of the Village Pump pages on Wikipedia if this is your goal, and you will have much more success for your effort.
The reason I bring up Wikijunior is because there are people who read the discussion pages for Wikijunior that may have a bit more time on their hands, looking for something more to do that is very similar in nature to what they are already doing with Wikijunior. And posting a message on those talk pages is not likely to be lost in the pages of debate that sometimes rage on the Village Pump or other high volume discussion forii. There are topics on the English Wikijunior talk page that are over a year old.... and they do get read by new users all of the time. The French Wikijunior talk page has only a couple of comments on it, and the Dutch Wikijunior talk page is still blank. The Dutch Wikibooks "Staff Lounge" (http://nl.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Lerarenkamer) does have some modest discussion about Wikijunior, including some recent comments from what I can see that the Wikimedia trademark "Wikijunior" in the form of (http://www.wikijunior.nl) is currently redirecting to your project. I'll leave that point alone for now, but that may be a minor problem that perhaps should be corrected.
I hope that your site remains successful, and there certainly is a learning curve to try and maintain a healthy wiki site.
Robert Horning
Hoi, You indicate that Wikijunior is a WMF trademark... I would not be so sure about that. Is there somewhere a link that indicates this is the case ?
NB a domain does not make a trademark Thanks, GerardM
On 5/30/07, Robert Horning robert_horning@netzero.net wrote:
Gerard Dummer wrote:
Hi,
My name is Gerard Dummer and one of the people who started WikiKids.nl.
WikiKids started as a project to write an encyclopedia for and by children.
When we started with this project (janauary 2006) we had no idea what
you could do with a wiki. And we didn't know if it would work. But we knew that we started a project that could have a great impact on education. That we could realize an authentic learning environment for children. Unlike any other project before to integrate ICT in education. To be precise: for children in the age of 8 - 13.
Along the way we learned quite a lot of things. That is to say about the
technical aspect as well as the educational aspects. This is a process that continues untill now and I believe will for the next few years.
There are two main goals: 1)provide information for children to use in
assigments 2) create a writing environment.
This is a projected that is most of all an educational project. On the
OnderwijsPortaal (EductionPortal) teacher can find different lessonplans, webquests, why they should use WikiKids in their classes and so on: http://kennisnet.wikia.com/wikikids/wiki/Portaal:Onderwijs
This project differs from WikiJunior as mentioned by Mathias. @Robert. I have no experiences with other WikiMedia projects so I can't
say anything about that. I very much believe that children can write articles for eachother. That doesn't mean that the articles are all perfect. But even an article that isn't finished is an opportunity for other children to rewrite that article to improve it. That is of course trying to use a weakness as a strength.
I am very sorry to hear that there where any hostilities. I can't image
that we would be hostile to any other Wikimediagroup. I hope this is a misunderstanding or that there is an other explanation.
Also if you could tell something more about what you mean with a
"motivated leader". What "next step" should be taken?
@Matthias Anyone can contribute on WikiKids. Children, teens and adults. Just as
long as the subjects are suitable. Just as on Vikidia teenagers also play an important role. Some are sysop.
I agree also with that fact that children can write about a subject. But
we also try to stimulate to write an article with a group of children or a class. Everyone can contribute that way.
Gerard Dummer www.wikikids.nl
This mailing list, in addition to general business about the Wikimedia Foundation, also tends to be a discussion forum for new project ideas. This can take the form of both non-wiki as well as wiki-based projects, and a major reason for this is due to the new projects page on the Meta wiki requesting that individuals wishing to start new projects like this contact this very list. I've been lurking (and occasionally adding my $0.02 cents along the way) on this mailing list for more than two years, and I've seen these proposals come and go. Some have been successful and have produced their own independent communities, and a couple have even become full Wikimedia sister projects. I've even been involved with some of that effort on a few different levels.
What I'm talking about here with a "motivated leader" in regards to actually starting a new Wikimedia sister project, as opposed to advertising some wiki-based website that you are seeking some cooperation, is that you can't "own" the idea yourself, no matter how hard you try. There is a certain bureaucratic process that goes into establishing a sister project, and I'm beginning to see a bit of wisdom to that process as well. I should note that 95% (I think it is actually worse than this) of all new project ideas are shot down or left in a sort of "development hell" (to borrow a term from the motion picture industry) where a couple of ideas keep recurring, but don't seem to take off for some reason or another. A children's oriented encyclopedia happens to be one of those recurring ideas, I should point out, and you nor those you are working with are the first to come up with this idea. I don't think you will be the last to bring it up in this forum either.
A small number of these projects actually get to the point that instead of "waiting" for approval from the WMF, they simply go and start their own independent wiki server. The disadvantage of this is that the relationship with the other Wikimedia projects tends to be quite a bit weaker, and many contributors don't see a relationship at all. The advantages and disadvantages of becoming a Wikimedia sister project are too numerous to mention in a short post, but I could write a multi page paper on that from my experience at this point. Perhaps I should for an upcoming Wikimania :)
To cut to the point, you have been trying to defend your project here on this mailing list, and I'm still not entirely sure what it is that you would like to see happen ultimately with this project proposal of yours if everything went exactly as you would like it to happen. If your goal here was merely to let people know that your project exists and that you are recruiting individuals to help out, by itself that isn't a terrible thing, but I would note that there are much more effective places and means to "advertise" a non-foundation wiki than on this Foundation mailing list. I've given some mild criticism, but at the same time this is something that I too would like to developed further. I should also note that nearly all of the "regular" people who post to this list are usually *very* busy with life, and what free time they have it already devoted to some Wikimedia project, whether as an administrator or key user/community leader on one of the Wikimedia sister projects or with some aspect of the Wikimedia Foundation. I would much more strongly recommend that you post something on one of the Village Pump pages on Wikipedia if this is your goal, and you will have much more success for your effort.
The reason I bring up Wikijunior is because there are people who read the discussion pages for Wikijunior that may have a bit more time on their hands, looking for something more to do that is very similar in nature to what they are already doing with Wikijunior. And posting a message on those talk pages is not likely to be lost in the pages of debate that sometimes rage on the Village Pump or other high volume discussion forii. There are topics on the English Wikijunior talk page that are over a year old.... and they do get read by new users all of the time. The French Wikijunior talk page has only a couple of comments on it, and the Dutch Wikijunior talk page is still blank. The Dutch Wikibooks "Staff Lounge" (http://nl.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Lerarenkamer) does have some modest discussion about Wikijunior, including some recent comments from what I can see that the Wikimedia trademark "Wikijunior" in the form of (http://www.wikijunior.nl) is currently redirecting to your project. I'll leave that point alone for now, but that may be a minor problem that perhaps should be corrected.
I hope that your site remains successful, and there certainly is a learning curve to try and maintain a healthy wiki site.
Robert Horning
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
GerardM wrote:
Hoi, You indicate that Wikijunior is a WMF trademark... I would not be so sure about that. Is there somewhere a link that indicates this is the case ?
registration in the USA.
Filled up on date 2006-07-07 Last information : dec 06
GOODS AND/OR SERVICES International Class: 041 Class Status: Active Providing information in the field of general encyclopedic knowledge for children via the Internet Basis: 1(a) First Use Date: 2004-10-24 First Use in Commerce Date: 2004-11-07
ant
NB a domain does not make a trademark Thanks, GerardM
On 5/30/07, Robert Horning robert_horning@netzero.net wrote:
Gerard Dummer wrote:
Hi,
My name is Gerard Dummer and one of the people who started WikiKids.nl.
WikiKids started as a project to write an encyclopedia for and by children.
When we started with this project (janauary 2006) we had no idea what
you could do with a wiki. And we didn't know if it would work. But we knew that we started a project that could have a great impact on education. That we could realize an authentic learning environment for children. Unlike any other project before to integrate ICT in education. To be precise: for children in the age of 8 - 13.
Along the way we learned quite a lot of things. That is to say about the
technical aspect as well as the educational aspects. This is a process that continues untill now and I believe will for the next few years.
There are two main goals: 1)provide information for children to use in
assigments 2) create a writing environment.
This is a projected that is most of all an educational project. On the
OnderwijsPortaal (EductionPortal) teacher can find different lessonplans, webquests, why they should use WikiKids in their classes and so on: http://kennisnet.wikia.com/wikikids/wiki/Portaal:Onderwijs
This project differs from WikiJunior as mentioned by Mathias. @Robert. I have no experiences with other WikiMedia projects so I can't
say anything about that. I very much believe that children can write articles for eachother. That doesn't mean that the articles are all perfect. But even an article that isn't finished is an opportunity for other children to rewrite that article to improve it. That is of course trying to use a weakness as a strength.
I am very sorry to hear that there where any hostilities. I can't image
that we would be hostile to any other Wikimediagroup. I hope this is a misunderstanding or that there is an other explanation.
Also if you could tell something more about what you mean with a
"motivated leader". What "next step" should be taken?
@Matthias Anyone can contribute on WikiKids. Children, teens and adults. Just as
long as the subjects are suitable. Just as on Vikidia teenagers also play an important role. Some are sysop.
I agree also with that fact that children can write about a subject. But
we also try to stimulate to write an article with a group of children or a class. Everyone can contribute that way.
Gerard Dummer www.wikikids.nl
This mailing list, in addition to general business about the Wikimedia Foundation, also tends to be a discussion forum for new project ideas. This can take the form of both non-wiki as well as wiki-based projects, and a major reason for this is due to the new projects page on the Meta wiki requesting that individuals wishing to start new projects like this contact this very list. I've been lurking (and occasionally adding my $0.02 cents along the way) on this mailing list for more than two years, and I've seen these proposals come and go. Some have been successful and have produced their own independent communities, and a couple have even become full Wikimedia sister projects. I've even been involved with some of that effort on a few different levels.
What I'm talking about here with a "motivated leader" in regards to actually starting a new Wikimedia sister project, as opposed to advertising some wiki-based website that you are seeking some cooperation, is that you can't "own" the idea yourself, no matter how hard you try. There is a certain bureaucratic process that goes into establishing a sister project, and I'm beginning to see a bit of wisdom to that process as well. I should note that 95% (I think it is actually worse than this) of all new project ideas are shot down or left in a sort of "development hell" (to borrow a term from the motion picture industry) where a couple of ideas keep recurring, but don't seem to take off for some reason or another. A children's oriented encyclopedia happens to be one of those recurring ideas, I should point out, and you nor those you are working with are the first to come up with this idea. I don't think you will be the last to bring it up in this forum either.
A small number of these projects actually get to the point that instead of "waiting" for approval from the WMF, they simply go and start their own independent wiki server. The disadvantage of this is that the relationship with the other Wikimedia projects tends to be quite a bit weaker, and many contributors don't see a relationship at all. The advantages and disadvantages of becoming a Wikimedia sister project are too numerous to mention in a short post, but I could write a multi page paper on that from my experience at this point. Perhaps I should for an upcoming Wikimania :)
To cut to the point, you have been trying to defend your project here on this mailing list, and I'm still not entirely sure what it is that you would like to see happen ultimately with this project proposal of yours if everything went exactly as you would like it to happen. If your goal here was merely to let people know that your project exists and that you are recruiting individuals to help out, by itself that isn't a terrible thing, but I would note that there are much more effective places and means to "advertise" a non-foundation wiki than on this Foundation mailing list. I've given some mild criticism, but at the same time this is something that I too would like to developed further. I should also note that nearly all of the "regular" people who post to this list are usually *very* busy with life, and what free time they have it already devoted to some Wikimedia project, whether as an administrator or key user/community leader on one of the Wikimedia sister projects or with some aspect of the Wikimedia Foundation. I would much more strongly recommend that you post something on one of the Village Pump pages on Wikipedia if this is your goal, and you will have much more success for your effort.
The reason I bring up Wikijunior is because there are people who read the discussion pages for Wikijunior that may have a bit more time on their hands, looking for something more to do that is very similar in nature to what they are already doing with Wikijunior. And posting a message on those talk pages is not likely to be lost in the pages of debate that sometimes rage on the Village Pump or other high volume discussion forii. There are topics on the English Wikijunior talk page that are over a year old.... and they do get read by new users all of the time. The French Wikijunior talk page has only a couple of comments on it, and the Dutch Wikijunior talk page is still blank. The Dutch Wikibooks "Staff Lounge" (http://nl.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Lerarenkamer) does have some modest discussion about Wikijunior, including some recent comments from what I can see that the Wikimedia trademark "Wikijunior" in the form of (http://www.wikijunior.nl) is currently redirecting to your project. I'll leave that point alone for now, but that may be a minor problem that perhaps should be corrected.
I hope that your site remains successful, and there certainly is a learning curve to try and maintain a healthy wiki site.
Robert Horning
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Thanks, GerardM
On 5/30/07, Florence Devouard Anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
GerardM wrote:
Hoi, You indicate that Wikijunior is a WMF trademark... I would not be so
sure
about that. Is there somewhere a link that indicates this is the case ?
registration in the USA.
Filled up on date 2006-07-07 Last information : dec 06
GOODS AND/OR SERVICES International Class: 041 Class Status: Active Providing information in the field of general encyclopedic knowledge for children via the Internet Basis: 1(a) First Use Date: 2004-10-24 First Use in Commerce Date: 2004-11-07
ant
NB a domain does not make a trademark Thanks, GerardM
On 5/30/07, Robert Horning robert_horning@netzero.net wrote:
Gerard Dummer wrote:
Hi,
My name is Gerard Dummer and one of the people who started WikiKids.nl
.
WikiKids started as a project to write an encyclopedia for and by
children.
When we started with this project (janauary 2006) we had no idea what
you could do with a wiki. And we didn't know if it would work. But we
knew
that we started a project that could have a great impact on education.
That
we could realize an authentic learning environment for children. Unlike
any
other project before to integrate ICT in education. To be precise: for children in the age of 8 - 13.
Along the way we learned quite a lot of things. That is to say about
the
technical aspect as well as the educational aspects. This is a process
that
continues untill now and I believe will for the next few years.
There are two main goals: 1)provide information for children to use in
assigments 2) create a writing environment.
This is a projected that is most of all an educational project. On the
OnderwijsPortaal (EductionPortal) teacher can find different
lessonplans,
webquests, why they should use WikiKids in their classes and so on: http://kennisnet.wikia.com/wikikids/wiki/Portaal:Onderwijs
This project differs from WikiJunior as mentioned by Mathias. @Robert. I have no experiences with other WikiMedia projects so I
can't
say anything about that. I very much believe that children can write articles for eachother. That doesn't mean that the articles are all
perfect.
But even an article that isn't finished is an opportunity for other
children
to rewrite that article to improve it. That is of course trying to use
a
weakness as a strength.
I am very sorry to hear that there where any hostilities. I can't
image
that we would be hostile to any other Wikimediagroup. I hope this is a misunderstanding or that there is an other explanation.
Also if you could tell something more about what you mean with a
"motivated leader". What "next step" should be taken?
@Matthias Anyone can contribute on WikiKids. Children, teens and adults. Just as
long as the subjects are suitable. Just as on Vikidia teenagers also
play an
important role. Some are sysop.
I agree also with that fact that children can write about a subject.
But
we also try to stimulate to write an article with a group of children
or a
class. Everyone can contribute that way.
Gerard Dummer www.wikikids.nl
This mailing list, in addition to general business about the Wikimedia Foundation, also tends to be a discussion forum for new project ideas. This can take the form of both non-wiki as well as wiki-based projects, and a major reason for this is due to the new projects page on the Meta wiki requesting that individuals wishing to start new projects like
this
contact this very list. I've been lurking (and occasionally adding my $0.02 cents along the way) on this mailing list for more than two
years,
and I've seen these proposals come and go. Some have been successful and have produced their own independent communities, and a couple have even become full Wikimedia sister projects. I've even been involved with some of that effort on a few different levels.
What I'm talking about here with a "motivated leader" in regards to actually starting a new Wikimedia sister project, as opposed to advertising some wiki-based website that you are seeking some cooperation, is that you can't "own" the idea yourself, no matter how hard you try. There is a certain bureaucratic process that goes into establishing a sister project, and I'm beginning to see a bit of wisdom to that process as well. I should note that 95% (I think it is
actually
worse than this) of all new project ideas are shot down or left in a sort of "development hell" (to borrow a term from the motion picture industry) where a couple of ideas keep recurring, but don't seem to
take
off for some reason or another. A children's oriented encyclopedia happens to be one of those recurring ideas, I should point out, and you nor those you are working with are the first to come up with this idea. I don't think you will be the last to bring it up in this forum either.
A small number of these projects actually get to the point that instead of "waiting" for approval from the WMF, they simply go and start their own independent wiki server. The disadvantage of this is that the relationship with the other Wikimedia projects tends to be quite a bit weaker, and many contributors don't see a relationship at all. The advantages and disadvantages of becoming a Wikimedia sister project are too numerous to mention in a short post, but I could write a multi page paper on that from my experience at this point. Perhaps I should for
an
upcoming Wikimania :)
To cut to the point, you have been trying to defend your project here
on
this mailing list, and I'm still not entirely sure what it is that you would like to see happen ultimately with this project proposal of yours if everything went exactly as you would like it to happen. If your
goal
here was merely to let people know that your project exists and that
you
are recruiting individuals to help out, by itself that isn't a terrible thing, but I would note that there are much more effective places and means to "advertise" a non-foundation wiki than on this Foundation mailing list. I've given some mild criticism, but at the same time
this
is something that I too would like to developed further. I should also note that nearly all of the "regular" people who post to this list are usually *very* busy with life, and what free time they have it already devoted to some Wikimedia project, whether as an administrator or key user/community leader on one of the Wikimedia sister projects or with some aspect of the Wikimedia Foundation. I would much more strongly recommend that you post something on one of the Village Pump pages on Wikipedia if this is your goal, and you will have much more success for your effort.
The reason I bring up Wikijunior is because there are people who read the discussion pages for Wikijunior that may have a bit more time on their hands, looking for something more to do that is very similar in nature to what they are already doing with Wikijunior. And posting a message on those talk pages is not likely to be lost in the pages of debate that sometimes rage on the Village Pump or other high volume discussion forii. There are topics on the English Wikijunior talk page that are over a year old.... and they do get read by new users all of the time. The French Wikijunior talk page has only a couple of
comments
on it, and the Dutch Wikijunior talk page is still blank. The Dutch Wikibooks "Staff Lounge" (http://nl.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Lerarenkamer) does have some modest discussion about Wikijunior, including some recent comments from what I can see that the Wikimedia trademark "Wikijunior" in the form of (http://www.wikijunior.nl) is currently redirecting to your project. I'll leave that point alone for now, but that may be a minor problem that perhaps should be corrected.
I hope that your site remains successful, and there certainly is a learning curve to try and maintain a healthy wiki site.
Robert Horning
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Hi,
Robert Horning a écrit :
There is a certain bureaucratic process that goes into establishing a sister project, and I'm beginning to see a bit of wisdom to that process as well. I should note that 95% (I think it is actually worse than this) of all new project ideas are shot down or left in a sort of "development hell" (to borrow a term from the motion picture industry) where a couple of ideas keep recurring, but don't seem to take off for some reason or another. A children's oriented encyclopedia happens to be one of those recurring ideas, I should point out, and you nor those you are working with are the first to come up with this idea. I don't think you will be the last to bring it up in this forum either.
(...) I'm still not entirely sure what it is that you would like to see happen ultimately with this project proposal of yours if everything went exactly as you would like it to happen.
Well I wonder what *you* would like to happen for this idea and if you would really like to develop further. I hope you don't want this project to be left in a "sort of development hell" for years ! Anyway we are not in a "development hell" right now. Let's anserw to this question "In the best of the cases" I would like that this to happen: - The WMF would approve the project - the main features of Vikidia which are very closed, not to say the same, as those of WikiKids.nl would be kept, - I would give the fr.vikidia wiki and the domain name if needed, - I would be "paid", let's say, a scholarship for Wikimania, - children encyclopedia could be launched in other languages.
If the anserw is no, we would continue like now, and propably nevertheless try to simulate or help other Vikidia-type encyclopedia in other languages, and let them be coordinated, but we won't use this mailing-list for that.
Gerard Dummer a écrit :
This becomes a bit confusing for me. I only posted on this list because Matthias pointed out the discussion that was going on this list. I do not at this moment see any reason to become an Wikimedia sister project. I don't even know what that means. What are the advantages? This also isn't really a project proposal. WikiKids isn't an project in the "development hell". It is up and running. Maybe this was the wrong place to post a message. Again, I only posted here to explain what WikiKids is. There already is a small community around WikiKids in the Netherlands. And it's growing. Also with people from Belgium (Flanders).
I'm sorry if you have felt critical comments because of me, and thank you for your explanation about Wikikids.nl.
Mathias Damour
Mathias Damour wrote:
Hi,
Robert Horning a écrit :
There is a certain bureaucratic process that goes into establishing a sister project, and I'm beginning to see a bit of wisdom to that process as well. I should note that 95% (I think it is actually worse than this) of all new project ideas are shot down or left in a sort of "development hell" (to borrow a term from the motion picture industry) where a couple of ideas keep recurring, but don't seem to take off for some reason or another. A children's oriented encyclopedia happens to be one of those recurring ideas, I should point out, and you nor those you are working with are the first to come up with this idea. I don't think you will be the last to bring it up in this forum either.
(...) I'm still not entirely sure what it is that you would like to see happen ultimately with this project proposal of yours if everything went exactly as you would like it to happen.
Well I wonder what *you* would like to happen for this idea and if you would really like to develop further. I hope you don't want this project to be left in a "sort of development hell" for years ! Anyway we are not in a "development hell" right now. Let's anserw to this question "In the best of the cases" I would like that this to happen:
- The WMF would approve the project
- the main features of Vikidia which are very closed, not to say the same, as those of WikiKids.nl would be kept,
- I would give the fr.vikidia wiki and the domain name if needed,
- I would be "paid", let's say, a scholarship for Wikimania,
- children encyclopedia could be launched in other languages.
If the anserw is no, we would continue like now, and propably nevertheless try to simulate or help other Vikidia-type encyclopedia in other languages, and let them be coordinated, but we won't use this mailing-list for that.
So I guess you would like sister project status for at least the French version of this project. BTW, in regards to "development hell", see this Wikipedia article on the topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_hell
This was my intention. And as a Wikimedia sister project, this proposal certainly is in this state at the moment, even though you have an active "demo project" at the moment. If you don't want "approval" from the WMF, but are here to merely advertise your project, this term simply doesn't apply, although by your own admission you have gone through some of the same growth stages that nearly all Wiki projects go through at one point or another. One of the significant advantages of becoming a Wikimedia sister project is that you have some people who can help out to deal with some of these growing pains and help with both administrative overhead and establishing basic policies that seem to work. Mainly some considerable experience with leadership of massive volunteer collaborative writing groups.
Also, if this is to become a sister project, some sort of effort must happen to work with those who are currently producing Wikijunior content. And the two "communities" must simply have a much higher level of cooperation than seems to currently exist. I'm also strongly suggesting that this cooperation still happen even if Wikikids stays as a completely independent group apart from being associated with the Wikimedia Foundation.
Hoi, This notion of "developer hell" is absolutely not that relevant. Only when you have a need of specific functionality for your project, you will find that there is this developer hell because things do not get developed and even when they are it does not mean that they lead to inclusion in the MediaWiki software.
When you have, like Wikikids does, have an organisation like Kennisnet supporting a project, then there is no such thing like developer hell. Kennisnet provides the projects it supports with one of the best people that can help you start a new project. When there is a need for trying out things, not only storange and bandwith are part of the deal but a really knowledgeable support as well.
This is really the gold standard for how this should be done. When you compare it with how new Wikipedia projects are to be started, you will find that many projects fail because of lack of interest and because of a lack of support. With the new policy for new languages, we try to get to a point where there is sufficient activity before a project gets out of the incubator. In this way we hope that a project will survive.
At this stage the WMF can only deal with the most extreme requirements for our projects. We do not have the money and the people to really support languages and projects in a sustained way. There is money and interest available from organisations that are interested in supporting a WIKIPEDIA (warts and all) for specific languages. At this moment it seems that the WMF does not have the resources to even entertain these notions.
An other point, there are many wikis that do extremely well, OpenWetWare is one Wikieducator is another. They provide a service, they develop new and added functionality based on MediaWiki .. There are plenty more examples that prove that you can create your own Wiki and be really special in the field that you make your own.
Thanks, GerardM
On 5/31/07, Robert Horning robert_horning@netzero.net wrote:
Mathias Damour wrote:
Hi,
Robert Horning a écrit :
There is a certain bureaucratic process that goes into establishing a sister project, and I'm beginning to see a bit of wisdom to that process as well. I should note that 95% (I think it is
actually
worse than this) of all new project ideas are shot down or left in a sort of "development hell" (to borrow a term from the motion picture industry) where a couple of ideas keep recurring, but don't seem to
take
off for some reason or another. A children's oriented encyclopedia happens to be one of those recurring ideas, I should point out, and you nor those you are working with are the first to come up with this idea. I don't think you will be the last to bring it up in this forum either.
(...) I'm still not entirely sure what it is that you would like to see happen ultimately with this project proposal of yours if everything went exactly as you would like it to happen.
Well I wonder what *you* would like to happen for this idea and if you
would really like to develop further. I hope you don't want this project to be left in a "sort of development hell" for years ! Anyway we are not in a "development hell" right now.
Let's anserw to this question "In the best of the cases" I would like
that this to happen:
- The WMF would approve the project
- the main features of Vikidia which are very closed, not to say the
same, as those of WikiKids.nl would be kept,
- I would give the fr.vikidia wiki and the domain name if needed,
- I would be "paid", let's say, a scholarship for Wikimania,
- children encyclopedia could be launched in other languages.
If the anserw is no, we would continue like now, and propably
nevertheless try to simulate or help other Vikidia-type encyclopedia in other languages, and let them be coordinated, but we won't use this mailing-list for that.
So I guess you would like sister project status for at least the French version of this project. BTW, in regards to "development hell", see this Wikipedia article on the topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_hell
This was my intention. And as a Wikimedia sister project, this proposal certainly is in this state at the moment, even though you have an active "demo project" at the moment. If you don't want "approval" from the WMF, but are here to merely advertise your project, this term simply doesn't apply, although by your own admission you have gone through some of the same growth stages that nearly all Wiki projects go through at one point or another. One of the significant advantages of becoming a Wikimedia sister project is that you have some people who can help out to deal with some of these growing pains and help with both administrative overhead and establishing basic policies that seem to work. Mainly some considerable experience with leadership of massive volunteer collaborative writing groups.
Also, if this is to become a sister project, some sort of effort must happen to work with those who are currently producing Wikijunior content. And the two "communities" must simply have a much higher level of cooperation than seems to currently exist. I'm also strongly suggesting that this cooperation still happen even if Wikikids stays as a completely independent group apart from being associated with the Wikimedia Foundation.
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