Based on our amateur legal analysis at [[Commons:Deletion requests/Library and Archives Canada non-PD images]], there is a potentially large class of images which are PD in Canada, but not the US: those works whose copyright was initially held by corporations (or the Crown), which expire 50 years after publication, but only after 95 years in the US due to the URAA.
In the past, there had been an idea that the Canadian chapter, once it was formed, could host a collection of such materials for the intervening 45 years, to provide these PD materials to Canadian re-users, and to allow for efficient transferring to Wikimedia Commons once the PD date comes. When I floated this idea on the WMC list, someone suggested that the Foundation would be actually be interested in doing this itself.
Thus, I have a few questions:
1. Will the Foundation ever be interested in hosting works which are non-PD in the US, but are PD elsewhere? 2. Have any national chapters thought of doing this for their own country's PD works? 3. If Wikimedia Canada can't make this a priority right now (we are pretty busy with incorporation, etc), would anyone out there (presumably Commons users) be interested in contributing to a non-WMF, completely unofficial wiki of Canadian PD works? Or should I just stick to working by myself and hosting any of these I find on my Flickr account? 4. Alternately, would anyone object to my starting of such a private wiki on the grounds that it would be better to wait for this to become an official WMC or WMF project?
Thanks for any input. Padraic
2008/5/25 Padraic user.padraic@gmail.com:
Based on our amateur legal analysis at [[Commons:Deletion requests/Library and Archives Canada non-PD images]], there is a potentially large class of images which are PD in Canada, but not the US: those works whose copyright was initially held by corporations (or the Crown), which expire 50 years after publication, but only after 95 years in the US due to the URAA.
In the case of crown copyright can the government legaly enforce any claim or would they run into a domestic lawsuit if they tried? Secondly are you sure the US wouldn't consider crown copyright expired the equivalent of released into the public domain?
geni wrote:
2008/5/25 Padraic user.padraic@gmail.com:
Based on our amateur legal analysis at [[Commons:Deletion requests/Library and Archives Canada non-PD images]], there is a potentially large class of images which are PD in Canada, but not the US: those works whose copyright was initially held by corporations (or the Crown), which expire 50 years after publication, but only after 95 years in the US due to the URAA.
In the case of crown copyright can the government legaly enforce any claim or would they run into a domestic lawsuit if they tried?
Domestic lawsuit over what? After 50 years it's in the public domain. While the issue has previously been raised about public domain being overridden by crown privilege this seems contrary to the Canadian court tendency to diminish the influence of crown privilege.
Secondly are you sure the US wouldn't consider crown copyright expired the equivalent of released into the public domain?
One of the problems here is the continuing uncertainty over the US non-recognition of the rule of the shorter term. Canada does specifically recognize the shorter term except as it relates to works from the United States or Mexico.
Ec
On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 8:51 PM, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
geni wrote:
2008/5/25 Padraic user.padraic@gmail.com:
Based on our amateur legal analysis at [[Commons:Deletion requests/Library and Archives Canada non-PD images]], there is a potentially large class of images which are PD in Canada, but not the US: those works whose copyright was initially held by corporations (or the Crown), which expire 50 years after publication, but only after 95 years in the US due to the URAA.
In the case of crown copyright can the government legaly enforce any claim or would they run into a domestic lawsuit if they tried?
Domestic lawsuit over what? After 50 years it's in the public domain. While the issue has previously been raised about public domain being overridden by crown privilege this seems contrary to the Canadian court tendency to diminish the influence of crown privilege.
Err, presumeably the Queen of Canada could try to sue Wikimedia or the uploaders in an American court. These images are clearly PD in Canada (and some, at least, are explicitly acknowledged as such) but may not be PD in the States.
Secondly are you sure the US wouldn't consider crown copyright expired the equivalent of released into the public domain?
Err, this is very ambigious, but it's also not clear whether the images in question, when produced by Crown Corporations, would fall under Crown Copyright, or whether they're PD through a clause in Canadian Copyright law that puts photographs into the public domain 50 years after they're taken if their first own is a corporation.
One of the problems here is the continuing uncertainty over the US non-recognition of the rule of the shorter term. Canada does specifically recognize the shorter term except as it relates to works from the United States or Mexico.
Ec
WilyD
To clarify on the corporate copyright thing: I should have said works made after Jan 1 1946 -- since they would not have been PD in Canada on Jan 1 1996, when the URAA took effect in the US and ensured the copyright of foreign works for 95 years.
I can't speak to Crown copyright, but it's 50 years, so I assume the same logic would apply.
2008/5/26 Wily D wilydoppelganger@gmail.com:
On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 8:51 PM, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
geni wrote:
2008/5/25 Padraic user.padraic@gmail.com:
Based on our amateur legal analysis at [[Commons:Deletion
requests/Library
and Archives Canada non-PD images]], there is a potentially large class
of
images which are PD in Canada, but not the US: those works whose
copyright
was initially held by corporations (or the Crown), which expire 50
years
after publication, but only after 95 years in the US due to the URAA.
In the case of crown copyright can the government legaly enforce any claim or would they run into a domestic lawsuit if they tried?
Domestic lawsuit over what? After 50 years it's in the public domain. While the issue has previously been raised about public domain being overridden by crown privilege this seems contrary to the Canadian court tendency to diminish the influence of crown privilege.
Err, presumeably the Queen of Canada could try to sue Wikimedia or the uploaders in an American court. These images are clearly PD in Canada (and some, at least, are explicitly acknowledged as such) but may not be PD in the States.
Secondly are you sure the US wouldn't consider crown copyright expired the equivalent of released into the public domain?
Err, this is very ambigious, but it's also not clear whether the images in question, when produced by Crown Corporations, would fall under Crown Copyright, or whether they're PD through a clause in Canadian Copyright law that puts photographs into the public domain 50 years after they're taken if their first own is a corporation.
One of the problems here is the continuing uncertainty over the US non-recognition of the rule of the shorter term. Canada does specifically recognize the shorter term except as it relates to works from the United States or Mexico.
Ec
WilyD
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Err, on or after Jan 1, 1946 (a photograph taken that day entered the Public Domain in Canada at 12:00 Jan 1, 1997). In fact, all photographs taken by December 31, 1948 (inclusive) in Canada are in the Public Domain here, but Uruguay Rounds Agreement means those taken in '47 and '48 probably are not in the Public Domain Stateside. (In 1999, Canada extended photographs from "50 years from production" to a more complicated scheme, so photographs taken in 1948 or previous are all public domain, as it was a straight 50 years).
Current copyright on photographs is life +50, unless they're produced for a corporation, in which case its 50 from production, or they produced for the Queen of Canada or one of her ministries, in which case its 50 from publication. For something like the National Film Board, it's pretty unclear whether the "corporate exception" applies, Crown copyright applies or both apply and what that means. Either way the photographs of Elizabeth's Coronation in '53 taken by the National Film Board and immeadiately-ishly published are PD here, but may be problematic for commons.
WilyD
On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 10:09 AM, Padraic user.padraic@gmail.com wrote:
To clarify on the corporate copyright thing: I should have said works made after Jan 1 1946 -- since they would not have been PD in Canada on Jan 1 1996, when the URAA took effect in the US and ensured the copyright of foreign works for 95 years.
I can't speak to Crown copyright, but it's 50 years, so I assume the same logic would apply.
2008/5/26 Wily D wilydoppelganger@gmail.com:
On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 8:51 PM, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
geni wrote:
2008/5/25 Padraic user.padraic@gmail.com:
Based on our amateur legal analysis at [[Commons:Deletion
requests/Library
and Archives Canada non-PD images]], there is a potentially large class
of
images which are PD in Canada, but not the US: those works whose
copyright
was initially held by corporations (or the Crown), which expire 50
years
after publication, but only after 95 years in the US due to the URAA.
In the case of crown copyright can the government legaly enforce any claim or would they run into a domestic lawsuit if they tried?
Domestic lawsuit over what? After 50 years it's in the public domain. While the issue has previously been raised about public domain being overridden by crown privilege this seems contrary to the Canadian court tendency to diminish the influence of crown privilege.
Err, presumeably the Queen of Canada could try to sue Wikimedia or the uploaders in an American court. These images are clearly PD in Canada (and some, at least, are explicitly acknowledged as such) but may not be PD in the States.
Secondly are you sure the US wouldn't consider crown copyright expired the equivalent of released into the public domain?
Err, this is very ambigious, but it's also not clear whether the images in question, when produced by Crown Corporations, would fall under Crown Copyright, or whether they're PD through a clause in Canadian Copyright law that puts photographs into the public domain 50 years after they're taken if their first own is a corporation.
One of the problems here is the continuing uncertainty over the US non-recognition of the rule of the shorter term. Canada does specifically recognize the shorter term except as it relates to works from the United States or Mexico.
Ec
WilyD
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Padraic ha scritto:
- Have any national chapters thought of doing this for their own country's
PD works?
In the Italian chapter we have launched a project called "Biblioteca" (Library) which contains works that although PD in Italy (70 years pma) are not PD in the US (published after 1923) and are therefore uneligible for wikisource at the moment. Cruccone
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