Given the large reserves that the WMF carries, and the savings from cancelling events such as Wikimania 2020, I would have thought that the WMF was one organisation that could afford to pause its fundraising for a few months. At least in countries where the economy is in freefall.
In a few months time lots of people will still be in a financial mess. But the large number of people who are currently going to be worried about their financial future will hopefully be divided into those who have kept their jobs. or got new ones and those who were right to be worried. Hopefully some of those who come through this financially OK will be in a position to donate.
WSC
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 11:25, wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
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Today's Topics:
- Annoying ads (John Erling Blad)
- Re: Annoying ads (Benjamin Ikuta)
- Re: Annoying ads (Robert Fernandez)
- Re: Annoying ads (Pierre-Yves Beaudouin)
- Re: Annoying ads (Nick Wilson (Quiddity))
- Re: Annoying ads (Samuel Klein)
- Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta)
- Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta)
Message: 1 Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 16:55:50 +0200 From: John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Annoying ads Message-ID: <CAJcMX2= 5GgwUNkrfG6EjJsn6sB1rBF1H_FnyPhPd_Wjr5otu0A@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Often I surf Wikipedia without being logged in, and so I did right now. I got the usual banners, but this time they popped up repeatedly in several locations. This quickly gets extremely annoying, and I find it unwise. Create one banner, and stick with that. Several banners are simply way over the top.
/jeblad
Hoi, To me this is similar to the argument why we do not really raise funds in some countries that "are poor". Some people are poor, certainly, but many others are not. The argument that we can afford has a relation to our aspirations, ambitions what can we do better, more particularly in the countries where people are stuck in their homes. If anything this is the time to adapt to changing circumstances. People are at home, there is this "captive audience" with many people that are helped mentally when they have something worthwhile to do.
We can reach out for readers, editors and donors. Thanks, GerardM
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 14:58, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
Given the large reserves that the WMF carries, and the savings from cancelling events such as Wikimania 2020, I would have thought that the WMF was one organisation that could afford to pause its fundraising for a few months. At least in countries where the economy is in freefall.
In a few months time lots of people will still be in a financial mess. But the large number of people who are currently going to be worried about their financial future will hopefully be divided into those who have kept their jobs. or got new ones and those who were right to be worried. Hopefully some of those who come through this financially OK will be in a position to donate.
WSC
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 11:25, wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..."
Today's Topics:
- Annoying ads (John Erling Blad)
- Re: Annoying ads (Benjamin Ikuta)
- Re: Annoying ads (Robert Fernandez)
- Re: Annoying ads (Pierre-Yves Beaudouin)
- Re: Annoying ads (Nick Wilson (Quiddity))
- Re: Annoying ads (Samuel Klein)
- Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta)
- Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta)
Message: 1 Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 16:55:50 +0200 From: John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Annoying ads Message-ID: <CAJcMX2= 5GgwUNkrfG6EjJsn6sB1rBF1H_FnyPhPd_Wjr5otu0A@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Often I surf Wikipedia without being logged in, and so I did right now. I got the usual banners, but this time they popped up repeatedly in several locations. This quickly gets extremely annoying, and I find it unwise. Create one banner, and stick with that. Several banners are simply way
over
the top.
/jeblad
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
This has been on our departments' minds for the past few months. Since the beginning of the pandemic, we have been changing our campaign schedules (including shortening the Italian campaign) and steadily revising our messaging. We are closely monitoring reader and donor feedback, responding to what we hear, and making adjustments as we go. There is a lot of interest in fundraising right now and how we adapt in the current environment and going forward (including amongst Affiliates and closely related external orgs whom we talk to). It’s uncertain when things will go back to “normal” so it is important we start learning how to fundraise in this environment. We are working on a plan to share more information and updates. Our team is working with limited capacity right now so these deeper updates may not happen right away, but we are making this a priority.
We'd also like to acknowledge GerardM’s point about giving people an opportunity to give, and note that we’re also hearing this from some donors - Some are giving because they are now realizing the huge value of the projects. These are some examples we can share:
"I was prompted quite a few times to donate but so far I always rejected even if it didn't feel right. Probably this virus situation made me more aware of my environment; what's important and what's not."
"I give because I appreciate that there is even a Wikipedia. Solid information ties in with our hope and is key to calming these uncertain times. Thanks again. Stay well and safe."
"We need Wikipedia, and if everyone give some, well you know... In Norway we have a special word for this act... "dugnad" (when everyone contributes, it will not be so big efforts for a few) Like we have this corona situation now. We must help each other, take care of each other, and do what the governments tell us to do. Then the virus will go away much faster."
"I really got into the Internet in 1995 with my 1st home PC…I never thought that one day, the global network would be our life-saving resource facing a global health crisis...You and all the Wikimedia teams do a TERRIFIC work. Wikipedia is the single most important website."
I hope that helps. Best, Nick
On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 8:47 AM Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, To me this is similar to the argument why we do not really raise funds in some countries that "are poor". Some people are poor, certainly, but many others are not. The argument that we can afford has a relation to our aspirations, ambitions what can we do better, more particularly in the countries where people are stuck in their homes. If anything this is the time to adapt to changing circumstances. People are at home, there is this "captive audience" with many people that are helped mentally when they have something worthwhile to do.
We can reach out for readers, editors and donors. Thanks, GerardM
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 14:58, WereSpielChequers < werespielchequers@gmail.com> wrote:
Given the large reserves that the WMF carries, and the savings from cancelling events such as Wikimania 2020, I would have thought that the
WMF
was one organisation that could afford to pause its fundraising for a few months. At least in countries where the economy is in freefall.
In a few months time lots of people will still be in a financial mess.
But
the large number of people who are currently going to be worried about their financial future will hopefully be divided into those who have kept their jobs. or got new ones and those who were right to be worried. Hopefully some of those who come through this financially OK will be in a position to donate.
WSC
I don't see a particular issue with requesting totally voluntary donations. It's not like we're putting up a paywall, so if someone can't afford it right now, they lose nothing by not donating. It may even be that for some (as per the feedback in the previous email from Nick) that making a small donation to something helps people to feel better when they have little other opportunity for social connection.
Todd
On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 2:13 PM Nick Wilson (Quiddity) nwilson@wikimedia.org wrote:
This has been on our departments' minds for the past few months. Since the beginning of the pandemic, we have been changing our campaign schedules (including shortening the Italian campaign) and steadily revising our messaging. We are closely monitoring reader and donor feedback, responding to what we hear, and making adjustments as we go. There is a lot of interest in fundraising right now and how we adapt in the current environment and going forward (including amongst Affiliates and closely related external orgs whom we talk to). It’s uncertain when things will go back to “normal” so it is important we start learning how to fundraise in this environment. We are working on a plan to share more information and updates. Our team is working with limited capacity right now so these deeper updates may not happen right away, but we are making this a priority.
We'd also like to acknowledge GerardM’s point about giving people an opportunity to give, and note that we’re also hearing this from some donors
- Some are giving because they are now realizing the huge value of the
projects. These are some examples we can share:
"I was prompted quite a few times to donate but so far I always rejected even if it didn't feel right. Probably this virus situation made me more aware of my environment; what's important and what's not."
"I give because I appreciate that there is even a Wikipedia. Solid information ties in with our hope and is key to calming these uncertain times. Thanks again. Stay well and safe."
"We need Wikipedia, and if everyone give some, well you know... In Norway we have a special word for this act... "dugnad" (when everyone contributes, it will not be so big efforts for a few) Like we have this corona situation now. We must help each other, take care of each other, and do what the governments tell us to do. Then the virus will go away much faster."
"I really got into the Internet in 1995 with my 1st home PC…I never thought that one day, the global network would be our life-saving resource facing a global health crisis...You and all the Wikimedia teams do a TERRIFIC work. Wikipedia is the single most important website."
I hope that helps. Best, Nick
On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 8:47 AM Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, To me this is similar to the argument why we do not really raise funds in some countries that "are poor". Some people are poor, certainly, but many others are not. The argument that we can afford has a relation to our aspirations, ambitions what can we do better, more particularly in the countries where people are stuck in their homes. If anything this is the time to adapt to changing circumstances. People are at home, there is
this
"captive audience" with many people that are helped mentally when they
have
something worthwhile to do.
We can reach out for readers, editors and donors. Thanks, GerardM
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 14:58, WereSpielChequers < werespielchequers@gmail.com> wrote:
Given the large reserves that the WMF carries, and the savings from cancelling events such as Wikimania 2020, I would have thought that the
WMF
was one organisation that could afford to pause its fundraising for a
few
months. At least in countries where the economy is in freefall.
In a few months time lots of people will still be in a financial mess.
But
the large number of people who are currently going to be worried about their financial future will hopefully be divided into those who have
kept
their jobs. or got new ones and those who were right to be worried. Hopefully some of those who come through this financially OK will be
in a
position to donate.
WSC
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Let's try kicking this perennial thead again.
This morning (5 Dec 2020) I paused cooling my porridge when looking up how Wikipedia describes 'Latinx' usage on my cellular, I was faced with a *2 page* advert. * The advert meant nothing of the article could be seen, not even the title, without having to pass the two pages of several big blue fundraising notices. * There's some statements in those notices that, frankly, look unencyclopaedic like "People told us we'd regret making Wikipedia a non-profit". That's a literally untrue Trumpian political sentence if ever I saw one. * The 2 pages close with "We ask you, humbly: don't scroll away" followed by a single option of a "MAYBE LATER" link (not a 'go away forever please' link, and yes, it's really in shouty all caps).
I might have passed on thinking, gah, not again, but there is a further sting in this tale. After working out that there was a "No thanks" link back at the start in a font smaller than all the notice text, you are faced with a second big red fundraising notice. This one has a sad weeping emoji in it, because you are going to "look the other way". I guess the idea is to make it feel like you are heartlessly walking past a beggar on the street without having the humanity to look at them, not sure how else this is supposed to read. It closes with the same "humbly" sentence, but this time with two emojis that are begging or praying hands. Personally I find being prayed at slightly offensive, Wikipedia being a haven of logical thought, not a church, but that's probably me being too black hat.
Isn't it about time the $100,000,000+ a year WMF made a design choice to stay classy and avoid multiple full page banners begging the public for money like it was about to go bust? It looks desperate because there's no other honest way to describe it.
Stay safe, wear a mask, Fae
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 12:58, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
Given the large reserves that the WMF carries, and the savings from cancelling events such as Wikimania 2020, I would have thought that the WMF was one organisation that could afford to pause its fundraising for a few months. At least in countries where the economy is in freefall.
In a few months time lots of people will still be in a financial mess. But the large number of people who are currently going to be worried about their financial future will hopefully be divided into those who have kept their jobs. or got new ones and those who were right to be worried. Hopefully some of those who come through this financially OK will be in a position to donate.
WSC
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 11:25, wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..."
Today's Topics:
- Annoying ads (John Erling Blad)
- Re: Annoying ads (Benjamin Ikuta)
- Re: Annoying ads (Robert Fernandez)
- Re: Annoying ads (Pierre-Yves Beaudouin)
- Re: Annoying ads (Nick Wilson (Quiddity))
- Re: Annoying ads (Samuel Klein)
- Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta)
- Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta)
Cheers Message: 1 Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 16:55:50 +0200 From: John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Annoying ads Message-ID: <CAJcMX2= 5GgwUNkrfG6EjJsn6sB1rBF1H_FnyPhPd_Wjr5otu0A@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Often I surf Wikipedia without being logged in, and so I did right now. I got the usual banners, but this time they popped up repeatedly in several locations. This quickly gets extremely annoying, and I find it unwise. Create one banner, and stick with that. Several banners are simply way over the top.
/jeblad
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I opened a browser I’m not logged in on to see what these ads were.
Here is the text, unedited, of the second ad I was shown (after closing the first):
“Hi reader 🙂. Sorry for the interruption, but this Saturday Wikipedia really needs your help. This is the 3rd appeal we've shown you. 98% of our readers don't give; they look the other way 😢. All we ask is $2.75 and then you can get back to your article. We ask you, humbly: please don't scroll away 🙏🙏.“
It would be quite helpful if the WMF’s marketing and fundraising-focused teams weren’t so intent on destroying Wikipedia’s reputation. I, and I’m sure most editors, don’t care that praying and crying emojis illicit more money. There are social and reputation costs to portraying Wikipedia like a crying, praying beggar about to go broke. And though I understand the employees responsible for pushing this nonsense in front of every reader evidently do not care about the costs of their actions, and only whatever money they can get from it, it remains wholly unacceptable.
Tell me: why should I volunteer to work on a project whose owners, regardless of the incredibly large quantities of money they already have, seek frequently to illicit donations through methods that damage Wikipedia’s reputation? Why would I give hours of my time a week to make Wikimedia projects clear of vandalism and abuse, seeking to give readers the impression of a functional and reliable source of information, knowing that some marketing person could undo all of the volunteers’ work through some ad campaign?
And yes, I also understand that volunteers complain every time this happens. There’s very good reason to do so, as every time these campaigns go out they are worse than the last, wholly ignorant of community wishes, and taking no views into account other than those who reflect purely a goal of getting more donations.
Regards, Vermont
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 05:22 Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Let's try kicking this perennial thead again.
This morning (5 Dec 2020) I paused cooling my porridge when looking up how Wikipedia describes 'Latinx' usage on my cellular, I was faced with a *2 page* advert.
- The advert meant nothing of the article could be seen, not even the
title, without having to pass the two pages of several big blue fundraising notices.
- There's some statements in those notices that, frankly, look
unencyclopaedic like "People told us we'd regret making Wikipedia a non-profit". That's a literally untrue Trumpian political sentence if ever I saw one.
- The 2 pages close with "We ask you, humbly: don't scroll away"
followed by a single option of a "MAYBE LATER" link (not a 'go away forever please' link, and yes, it's really in shouty all caps).
I might have passed on thinking, gah, not again, but there is a further sting in this tale. After working out that there was a "No thanks" link back at the start in a font smaller than all the notice text, you are faced with a second big red fundraising notice. This one has a sad weeping emoji in it, because you are going to "look the other way". I guess the idea is to make it feel like you are heartlessly walking past a beggar on the street without having the humanity to look at them, not sure how else this is supposed to read. It closes with the same "humbly" sentence, but this time with two emojis that are begging or praying hands. Personally I find being prayed at slightly offensive, Wikipedia being a haven of logical thought, not a church, but that's probably me being too black hat.
Isn't it about time the $100,000,000+ a year WMF made a design choice to stay classy and avoid multiple full page banners begging the public for money like it was about to go bust? It looks desperate because there's no other honest way to describe it.
Stay safe, wear a mask, Fae
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 12:58, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
Given the large reserves that the WMF carries, and the savings from cancelling events such as Wikimania 2020, I would have thought that the
WMF
was one organisation that could afford to pause its fundraising for a few months. At least in countries where the economy is in freefall.
In a few months time lots of people will still be in a financial mess.
But
the large number of people who are currently going to be worried about their financial future will hopefully be divided into those who have kept their jobs. or got new ones and those who were right to be worried. Hopefully some of those who come through this financially OK will be in a position to donate.
WSC
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 11:25, wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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You can reach the person managing the list at wikimedia-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..."
Today's Topics:
- Annoying ads (John Erling Blad)
- Re: Annoying ads (Benjamin Ikuta)
- Re: Annoying ads (Robert Fernandez)
- Re: Annoying ads (Pierre-Yves Beaudouin)
- Re: Annoying ads (Nick Wilson (Quiddity))
- Re: Annoying ads (Samuel Klein)
- Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta)
- Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta)
Cheers Message: 1 Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 16:55:50 +0200 From: John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Annoying ads Message-ID: <CAJcMX2= 5GgwUNkrfG6EjJsn6sB1rBF1H_FnyPhPd_Wjr5otu0A@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Often I surf Wikipedia without being logged in, and so I did right
now. I
got the usual banners, but this time they popped up repeatedly in
several
locations. This quickly gets extremely annoying, and I find it unwise. Create one banner, and stick with that. Several banners are simply way
over
the top.
/jeblad
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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tend to agree there should be a mobile friendly version, the article should be visible at the same time. What wording is used it definitely should not have religious actions or symbology in it... the other emojis do seem childish
On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 at 21:58, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
I opened a browser I’m not logged in on to see what these ads were.
Here is the text, unedited, of the second ad I was shown (after closing the first):
“Hi reader 🙂. Sorry for the interruption, but this Saturday Wikipedia really needs your help. This is the 3rd appeal we've shown you. 98% of our readers don't give; they look the other way 😢. All we ask is $2.75 and then you can get back to your article. We ask you, humbly: please don't scroll away 🙏🙏.“
It would be quite helpful if the WMF’s marketing and fundraising-focused teams weren’t so intent on destroying Wikipedia’s reputation. I, and I’m sure most editors, don’t care that praying and crying emojis illicit more money. There are social and reputation costs to portraying Wikipedia like a crying, praying beggar about to go broke. And though I understand the employees responsible for pushing this nonsense in front of every reader evidently do not care about the costs of their actions, and only whatever money they can get from it, it remains wholly unacceptable.
Tell me: why should I volunteer to work on a project whose owners, regardless of the incredibly large quantities of money they already have, seek frequently to illicit donations through methods that damage Wikipedia’s reputation? Why would I give hours of my time a week to make Wikimedia projects clear of vandalism and abuse, seeking to give readers the impression of a functional and reliable source of information, knowing that some marketing person could undo all of the volunteers’ work through some ad campaign?
And yes, I also understand that volunteers complain every time this happens. There’s very good reason to do so, as every time these campaigns go out they are worse than the last, wholly ignorant of community wishes, and taking no views into account other than those who reflect purely a goal of getting more donations.
Regards, Vermont
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 05:22 Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Let's try kicking this perennial thead again.
This morning (5 Dec 2020) I paused cooling my porridge when looking up how Wikipedia describes 'Latinx' usage on my cellular, I was faced with a *2 page* advert.
- The advert meant nothing of the article could be seen, not even the
title, without having to pass the two pages of several big blue fundraising notices.
- There's some statements in those notices that, frankly, look
unencyclopaedic like "People told us we'd regret making Wikipedia a non-profit". That's a literally untrue Trumpian political sentence if ever I saw one.
- The 2 pages close with "We ask you, humbly: don't scroll away"
followed by a single option of a "MAYBE LATER" link (not a 'go away forever please' link, and yes, it's really in shouty all caps).
I might have passed on thinking, gah, not again, but there is a further sting in this tale. After working out that there was a "No thanks" link back at the start in a font smaller than all the notice text, you are faced with a second big red fundraising notice. This one has a sad weeping emoji in it, because you are going to "look the other way". I guess the idea is to make it feel like you are heartlessly walking past a beggar on the street without having the humanity to look at them, not sure how else this is supposed to read. It closes with the same "humbly" sentence, but this time with two emojis that are begging or praying hands. Personally I find being prayed at slightly offensive, Wikipedia being a haven of logical thought, not a church, but that's probably me being too black hat.
Isn't it about time the $100,000,000+ a year WMF made a design choice to stay classy and avoid multiple full page banners begging the public for money like it was about to go bust? It looks desperate because there's no other honest way to describe it.
Stay safe, wear a mask, Fae
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 12:58, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
Given the large reserves that the WMF carries, and the savings from cancelling events such as Wikimania 2020, I would have thought that the
WMF
was one organisation that could afford to pause its fundraising for a
few
months. At least in countries where the economy is in freefall.
In a few months time lots of people will still be in a financial mess.
But
the large number of people who are currently going to be worried about their financial future will hopefully be divided into those who have
kept
their jobs. or got new ones and those who were right to be worried. Hopefully some of those who come through this financially OK will be in
a
position to donate.
WSC
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 11:25, wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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You can reach the person managing the list at wikimedia-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..."
Today's Topics:
- Annoying ads (John Erling Blad)
- Re: Annoying ads (Benjamin Ikuta)
- Re: Annoying ads (Robert Fernandez)
- Re: Annoying ads (Pierre-Yves Beaudouin)
- Re: Annoying ads (Nick Wilson (Quiddity))
- Re: Annoying ads (Samuel Klein)
- Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta)
- Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta)
Cheers Message: 1 Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 16:55:50 +0200 From: John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Annoying ads Message-ID: <CAJcMX2= 5GgwUNkrfG6EjJsn6sB1rBF1H_FnyPhPd_Wjr5otu0A@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Often I surf Wikipedia without being logged in, and so I did right
now. I
got the usual banners, but this time they popped up repeatedly in
several
locations. This quickly gets extremely annoying, and I find it unwise. Create one banner, and stick with that. Several banners are simply
way over
the top.
/jeblad
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Hey all,
To avoid burying the lead, the feedback is appreciated and we do listen whenever feedback is raised. I've just been coordinating with the team, and we've rolled back this change.
For some background, the emojis in this messaging were a recent addition earlier this week. Emojis have become a core part of the way the world communicates, especially with younger demographics, practically becoming an ideographic language in and of itself. The team has been keen to see if there are ways we can leverage this, especially on mobile and we’ve been experimenting with them over the last couple of years in a number of campaigns.
I want to recognise that we missed the mark on this one and that your feedback is heard, much appreciated and acted upon. The team really does care about the messaging and how it represents us, and the projects as a whole. Our processes on approving content have massively improved over the years and I think it reflects in the messaging we use. A number of people have noted that it has improved for the better over the years.
At the same time I want to take some ownership of this misstep myself. I've been proactively working in real time with some volunteers, discussing concepts and gathering feedback on campaigns. This feedback has definitely shown that for such a new concept, I should have made sure to have highlighted and gotten more input on this.
I'll be gathering input on how we use emojis in our messaging and I'd be happy to follow up with people about this. Just an additional note that if anyone wants to talk through any feedback with me I can be found on IRC, Discord, Telegram or send it through via email ( seddon at wikimedia.org ).
My apologies but also my genuine thanks for the feedback.
Seddon
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 2:24 PM Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
tend to agree there should be a mobile friendly version, the article should be visible at the same time. What wording is used it definitely should not have religious actions or symbology in it... the other emojis do seem childish
On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 at 21:58, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
I opened a browser I’m not logged in on to see what these ads were.
Here is the text, unedited, of the second ad I was shown (after closing the first):
“Hi reader 🙂. Sorry for the interruption, but this Saturday Wikipedia really needs your help. This is the 3rd appeal we've shown you. 98% of our readers don't give; they look the other way 😢. All we ask is $2.75 and then you can get back to your article. We ask you, humbly: please don't scroll away 🙏🙏.“
It would be quite helpful if the WMF’s marketing and fundraising-focused teams weren’t so intent on destroying Wikipedia’s reputation. I, and I’m sure most editors, don’t care that praying and crying emojis illicit more money. There are social and reputation costs to portraying Wikipedia like a crying, praying beggar about to go broke. And though I understand the employees responsible for pushing this nonsense in front of every reader evidently do not care about the costs of their actions, and only whatever money they can get from it, it remains wholly unacceptable.
Tell me: why should I volunteer to work on a project whose owners, regardless of the incredibly large quantities of money they already have, seek frequently to illicit donations through methods that damage Wikipedia’s reputation? Why would I give hours of my time a week to make Wikimedia projects clear of vandalism and abuse, seeking to give readers the impression of a functional and reliable source of information, knowing that some marketing person could undo all of the volunteers’ work through some ad campaign?
And yes, I also understand that volunteers complain every time this happens. There’s very good reason to do so, as every time these campaigns go out they are worse than the last, wholly ignorant of community wishes, and taking no views into account other than those who reflect purely a goal of getting more donations.
Regards, Vermont
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 05:22 Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Let's try kicking this perennial thead again.
This morning (5 Dec 2020) I paused cooling my porridge when looking up how Wikipedia describes 'Latinx' usage on my cellular, I was faced with a *2 page* advert.
- The advert meant nothing of the article could be seen, not even the
title, without having to pass the two pages of several big blue fundraising notices.
- There's some statements in those notices that, frankly, look
unencyclopaedic like "People told us we'd regret making Wikipedia a non-profit". That's a literally untrue Trumpian political sentence if ever I saw one.
- The 2 pages close with "We ask you, humbly: don't scroll away"
followed by a single option of a "MAYBE LATER" link (not a 'go away forever please' link, and yes, it's really in shouty all caps).
I might have passed on thinking, gah, not again, but there is a further sting in this tale. After working out that there was a "No thanks" link back at the start in a font smaller than all the notice text, you are faced with a second big red fundraising notice. This one has a sad weeping emoji in it, because you are going to "look the other way". I guess the idea is to make it feel like you are heartlessly walking past a beggar on the street without having the humanity to look at them, not sure how else this is supposed to read. It closes with the same "humbly" sentence, but this time with two emojis that are begging or praying hands. Personally I find being prayed at slightly offensive, Wikipedia being a haven of logical thought, not a church, but that's probably me being too black hat.
Isn't it about time the $100,000,000+ a year WMF made a design choice to stay classy and avoid multiple full page banners begging the public for money like it was about to go bust? It looks desperate because there's no other honest way to describe it.
Stay safe, wear a mask, Fae
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 12:58, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
Given the large reserves that the WMF carries, and the savings from cancelling events such as Wikimania 2020, I would have thought that
the WMF
was one organisation that could afford to pause its fundraising for a
few
months. At least in countries where the economy is in freefall.
In a few months time lots of people will still be in a financial mess.
But
the large number of people who are currently going to be worried about their financial future will hopefully be divided into those who have
kept
their jobs. or got new ones and those who were right to be worried. Hopefully some of those who come through this financially OK will be
in a
position to donate.
WSC
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 11:25, wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..."
Today's Topics:
- Annoying ads (John Erling Blad)
- Re: Annoying ads (Benjamin Ikuta)
- Re: Annoying ads (Robert Fernandez)
- Re: Annoying ads (Pierre-Yves Beaudouin)
- Re: Annoying ads (Nick Wilson (Quiddity))
- Re: Annoying ads (Samuel Klein)
- Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta)
- Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta)
Cheers Message: 1 Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 16:55:50 +0200 From: John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Annoying ads Message-ID: <CAJcMX2= 5GgwUNkrfG6EjJsn6sB1rBF1H_FnyPhPd_Wjr5otu0A@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Often I surf Wikipedia without being logged in, and so I did right
now. I
got the usual banners, but this time they popped up repeatedly in
several
locations. This quickly gets extremely annoying, and I find it
unwise.
Create one banner, and stick with that. Several banners are simply
way over
the top.
/jeblad
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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-- GN.
*Power of Diverse Collaboration* *Sharing knowledge brings people together* Wikimania Bangkok 2021 August hosted by ESEAP
Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u
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I don't quite think the emoji were the only thing people hated about this.
On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 at 17:09, Joseph Seddon jseddon@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hey all,
To avoid burying the lead, the feedback is appreciated and we do listen whenever feedback is raised. I've just been coordinating with the team, and we've rolled back this change.
For some background, the emojis in this messaging were a recent addition earlier this week. Emojis have become a core part of the way the world communicates, especially with younger demographics, practically becoming an ideographic language in and of itself. The team has been keen to see if there are ways we can leverage this, especially on mobile and we’ve been experimenting with them over the last couple of years in a number of campaigns.
I want to recognise that we missed the mark on this one and that your feedback is heard, much appreciated and acted upon. The team really does care about the messaging and how it represents us, and the projects as a whole. Our processes on approving content have massively improved over the years and I think it reflects in the messaging we use. A number of people have noted that it has improved for the better over the years.
At the same time I want to take some ownership of this misstep myself. I've been proactively working in real time with some volunteers, discussing concepts and gathering feedback on campaigns. This feedback has definitely shown that for such a new concept, I should have made sure to have highlighted and gotten more input on this.
I'll be gathering input on how we use emojis in our messaging and I'd be happy to follow up with people about this. Just an additional note that if anyone wants to talk through any feedback with me I can be found on IRC, Discord, Telegram or send it through via email ( seddon at wikimedia.org ).
My apologies but also my genuine thanks for the feedback.
Seddon
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 2:24 PM Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
tend to agree there should be a mobile friendly version, the article should be visible at the same time. What wording is used it definitely should not have religious actions or symbology in it... the other emojis do seem childish
On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 at 21:58, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
I opened a browser I’m not logged in on to see what these ads were.
Here is the text, unedited, of the second ad I was shown (after closing the first):
“Hi reader 🙂. Sorry for the interruption, but this Saturday Wikipedia really needs your help. This is the 3rd appeal we've shown you. 98% of our readers don't give; they look the other way 😢. All we ask is $2.75 and then you can get back to your article. We ask you, humbly: please don't scroll away 🙏🙏.“
It would be quite helpful if the WMF’s marketing and fundraising-focused teams weren’t so intent on destroying Wikipedia’s reputation. I, and I’m sure most editors, don’t care that praying and crying emojis illicit more money. There are social and reputation costs to portraying Wikipedia like a crying, praying beggar about to go broke. And though I understand the employees responsible for pushing this nonsense in front of every reader evidently do not care about the costs of their actions, and only whatever money they can get from it, it remains wholly unacceptable.
Tell me: why should I volunteer to work on a project whose owners, regardless of the incredibly large quantities of money they already have, seek frequently to illicit donations through methods that damage Wikipedia’s reputation? Why would I give hours of my time a week to make Wikimedia projects clear of vandalism and abuse, seeking to give readers the impression of a functional and reliable source of information, knowing that some marketing person could undo all of the volunteers’ work through some ad campaign?
And yes, I also understand that volunteers complain every time this happens. There’s very good reason to do so, as every time these campaigns go out they are worse than the last, wholly ignorant of community wishes, and taking no views into account other than those who reflect purely a goal of getting more donations.
Regards, Vermont
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 05:22 Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Let's try kicking this perennial thead again.
This morning (5 Dec 2020) I paused cooling my porridge when looking up how Wikipedia describes 'Latinx' usage on my cellular, I was faced with a *2 page* advert.
- The advert meant nothing of the article could be seen, not even the
title, without having to pass the two pages of several big blue fundraising notices.
- There's some statements in those notices that, frankly, look
unencyclopaedic like "People told us we'd regret making Wikipedia a non-profit". That's a literally untrue Trumpian political sentence if ever I saw one.
- The 2 pages close with "We ask you, humbly: don't scroll away"
followed by a single option of a "MAYBE LATER" link (not a 'go away forever please' link, and yes, it's really in shouty all caps).
I might have passed on thinking, gah, not again, but there is a further sting in this tale. After working out that there was a "No thanks" link back at the start in a font smaller than all the notice text, you are faced with a second big red fundraising notice. This one has a sad weeping emoji in it, because you are going to "look the other way". I guess the idea is to make it feel like you are heartlessly walking past a beggar on the street without having the humanity to look at them, not sure how else this is supposed to read. It closes with the same "humbly" sentence, but this time with two emojis that are begging or praying hands. Personally I find being prayed at slightly offensive, Wikipedia being a haven of logical thought, not a church, but that's probably me being too black hat.
Isn't it about time the $100,000,000+ a year WMF made a design choice to stay classy and avoid multiple full page banners begging the public for money like it was about to go bust? It looks desperate because there's no other honest way to describe it.
Stay safe, wear a mask, Fae
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 12:58, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
Given the large reserves that the WMF carries, and the savings from cancelling events such as Wikimania 2020, I would have thought that
the WMF
was one organisation that could afford to pause its fundraising for a
few
months. At least in countries where the economy is in freefall.
In a few months time lots of people will still be in a financial
mess. But
the large number of people who are currently going to be worried about their financial future will hopefully be divided into those who have
kept
their jobs. or got new ones and those who were right to be worried. Hopefully some of those who come through this financially OK will be
in a
position to donate.
WSC
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 11:25, <wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
wrote:
Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
You can reach the person managing the list at wikimedia-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..."
Today's Topics:
- Annoying ads (John Erling Blad)
- Re: Annoying ads (Benjamin Ikuta)
- Re: Annoying ads (Robert Fernandez)
- Re: Annoying ads (Pierre-Yves Beaudouin)
- Re: Annoying ads (Nick Wilson (Quiddity))
- Re: Annoying ads (Samuel Klein)
- Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta)
- Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta)
Cheers Message: 1 Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 16:55:50 +0200 From: John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Annoying ads Message-ID: <CAJcMX2= 5GgwUNkrfG6EjJsn6sB1rBF1H_FnyPhPd_Wjr5otu0A@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Often I surf Wikipedia without being logged in, and so I did right
now. I
got the usual banners, but this time they popped up repeatedly in
several
locations. This quickly gets extremely annoying, and I find it
unwise.
Create one banner, and stick with that. Several banners are simply
way over
the top.
/jeblad
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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-- GN.
*Power of Diverse Collaboration* *Sharing knowledge brings people together* Wikimania Bangkok 2021 August hosted by ESEAP
Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Seddon
*Senior Community Relations Specialist* *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hey Michel,
There are some other points that Fae raised particularly around user experience and technical implementation that are distinctly more complex tasks and we are going to need to discuss and plan our testing to work on them, and the team is at very limited capacity on a Saturday. (I myself had been out enjoying the rather brisk winter air that's visiting the UK). Due to their very nature, rolling back the emoji's in the messaging could be done immediately.
I've already brought the feedback back to the team, and I'll be reviewing with the team on Monday and hopefully work on them this week.
Seddon
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 4:36 PM Michel Vuijlsteke wikipedia@zog.org wrote:
I don't quite think the emoji were the only thing people hated about this.
On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 at 17:09, Joseph Seddon jseddon@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hey all,
To avoid burying the lead, the feedback is appreciated and we do listen whenever feedback is raised. I've just been coordinating with the team, and we've rolled back this change.
For some background, the emojis in this messaging were a recent addition earlier this week. Emojis have become a core part of the way the world communicates, especially with younger demographics, practically becoming an ideographic language in and of itself. The team has been keen to see if there are ways we can leverage this, especially on mobile and we’ve been experimenting with them over the last couple of years in a number of campaigns.
I want to recognise that we missed the mark on this one and that your feedback is heard, much appreciated and acted upon. The team really does care about the messaging and how it represents us, and the projects as a whole. Our processes on approving content have massively improved over the years and I think it reflects in the messaging we use. A number of people have noted that it has improved for the better over the years.
At the same time I want to take some ownership of this misstep myself. I've been proactively working in real time with some volunteers, discussing concepts and gathering feedback on campaigns. This feedback has definitely shown that for such a new concept, I should have made sure to have highlighted and gotten more input on this.
I'll be gathering input on how we use emojis in our messaging and I'd be happy to follow up with people about this. Just an additional note that if anyone wants to talk through any feedback with me I can be found on IRC, Discord, Telegram or send it through via email ( seddon at wikimedia.org ).
My apologies but also my genuine thanks for the feedback.
Seddon
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 2:24 PM Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
tend to agree there should be a mobile friendly version, the article should be visible at the same time. What wording is used it definitely should not have religious actions or symbology in it... the other emojis do seem childish
On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 at 21:58, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
I opened a browser I’m not logged in on to see what these ads were.
Here is the text, unedited, of the second ad I was shown (after closing the first):
“Hi reader 🙂. Sorry for the interruption, but this Saturday Wikipedia really needs your help. This is the 3rd appeal we've shown you. 98% of our readers don't give; they look the other way 😢. All we ask is $2.75 and then you can get back to your article. We ask you, humbly: please don't scroll away 🙏🙏.“
It would be quite helpful if the WMF’s marketing and fundraising-focused teams weren’t so intent on destroying Wikipedia’s reputation. I, and I’m sure most editors, don’t care that praying and crying emojis illicit more money. There are social and reputation costs to portraying Wikipedia like a crying, praying beggar about to go broke. And though I understand the employees responsible for pushing this nonsense in front of every reader evidently do not care about the costs of their actions, and only whatever money they can get from it, it remains wholly unacceptable.
Tell me: why should I volunteer to work on a project whose owners, regardless of the incredibly large quantities of money they already have, seek frequently to illicit donations through methods that damage Wikipedia’s reputation? Why would I give hours of my time a week to make Wikimedia projects clear of vandalism and abuse, seeking to give readers the impression of a functional and reliable source of information, knowing that some marketing person could undo all of the volunteers’ work through some ad campaign?
And yes, I also understand that volunteers complain every time this happens. There’s very good reason to do so, as every time these campaigns go out they are worse than the last, wholly ignorant of community wishes, and taking no views into account other than those who reflect purely a goal of getting more donations.
Regards, Vermont
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 05:22 Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Let's try kicking this perennial thead again.
This morning (5 Dec 2020) I paused cooling my porridge when looking up how Wikipedia describes 'Latinx' usage on my cellular, I was faced with a *2 page* advert.
- The advert meant nothing of the article could be seen, not even the
title, without having to pass the two pages of several big blue fundraising notices.
- There's some statements in those notices that, frankly, look
unencyclopaedic like "People told us we'd regret making Wikipedia a non-profit". That's a literally untrue Trumpian political sentence if ever I saw one.
- The 2 pages close with "We ask you, humbly: don't scroll away"
followed by a single option of a "MAYBE LATER" link (not a 'go away forever please' link, and yes, it's really in shouty all caps).
I might have passed on thinking, gah, not again, but there is a further sting in this tale. After working out that there was a "No thanks" link back at the start in a font smaller than all the notice text, you are faced with a second big red fundraising notice. This one has a sad weeping emoji in it, because you are going to "look the other way". I guess the idea is to make it feel like you are heartlessly walking past a beggar on the street without having the humanity to look at them, not sure how else this is supposed to read. It closes with the same "humbly" sentence, but this time with two emojis that are begging or praying hands. Personally I find being prayed at slightly offensive, Wikipedia being a haven of logical thought, not a church, but that's probably me being too black hat.
Isn't it about time the $100,000,000+ a year WMF made a design choice to stay classy and avoid multiple full page banners begging the public for money like it was about to go bust? It looks desperate because there's no other honest way to describe it.
Stay safe, wear a mask, Fae
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 12:58, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
Given the large reserves that the WMF carries, and the savings from cancelling events such as Wikimania 2020, I would have thought that
the WMF
was one organisation that could afford to pause its fundraising for
a few
months. At least in countries where the economy is in freefall.
In a few months time lots of people will still be in a financial
mess. But
the large number of people who are currently going to be worried
about
their financial future will hopefully be divided into those who have
kept
their jobs. or got new ones and those who were right to be worried. Hopefully some of those who come through this financially OK will be
in a
position to donate.
WSC
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 11:25, <
wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org>
wrote:
> Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > wikimedia-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Annoying ads (John Erling Blad) > 2. Re: Annoying ads (Benjamin Ikuta) > 3. Re: Annoying ads (Robert Fernandez) > 4. Re: Annoying ads (Pierre-Yves Beaudouin) > 5. Re: Annoying ads (Nick Wilson (Quiddity)) > 6. Re: Annoying ads (Samuel Klein) > 7. Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta) > 8. Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta) > > >
>Cheers > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 16:55:50 +0200 > From: John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com > To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Annoying ads > Message-ID: > <CAJcMX2= > 5GgwUNkrfG6EjJsn6sB1rBF1H_FnyPhPd_Wjr5otu0A@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Often I surf Wikipedia without being logged in, and so I did right
now. I
> got the usual banners, but this time they popped up repeatedly in
several
> locations. This quickly gets extremely annoying, and I find it
unwise.
> Create one banner, and stick with that. Several banners are simply
way over
> the top. > > /jeblad > > > ------------------------------ > > ***************************** > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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-- GN.
*Power of Diverse Collaboration* *Sharing knowledge brings people together* Wikimania Bangkok 2021 August hosted by ESEAP
Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u
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*Senior Community Relations Specialist* *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Apart from the usual suspects [ a. I think whether a certain emoji is religious is not a grave problem; b. civil society orgs survive on donations and fundraising is important; c. as a movement we can't probably ever have everyone agreeing on everything but pushing fundraising messages that brings some decent buck cannot be stopped -- after all, the same buck is used for maintaining servers or fighting oppressive regimes that pose a threat to open knowledge ] a few things really need to be thought through while designing fundraising messages:
- How does the message look on a low-end smartphone used by someone who lives in a place where data is expensive (say Vanuatu or a small island economy)? Can the real goal of the movement -- furthering open knowledge -- be seriously hampered by displaying too much text/image in the fundraiser?
- Can the opt out message be displayed more clearly so that a user can clearly see it and turn off. It has often been a real pain for me to turn off the ads while trying to check something on Wikipedia when I am not logged in and I'm on a private tab/using VPN.
- From an accessibility PoV a user should be able to identify that the ad is different from the content. It's otherwise a pesky way to fool a user who might at times confuse a fundraising ad as Wikipedia content. Probably a different background color or a distinguishable border or a clear sign would help.
Subhashish
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 10:34 PM Joseph Seddon jseddon@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hey Michel,
There are some other points that Fae raised particularly around user experience and technical implementation that are distinctly more complex tasks and we are going to need to discuss and plan our testing to work on them, and the team is at very limited capacity on a Saturday. (I myself had been out enjoying the rather brisk winter air that's visiting the UK). Due to their very nature, rolling back the emoji's in the messaging could be done immediately.
I've already brought the feedback back to the team, and I'll be reviewing with the team on Monday and hopefully work on them this week.
Seddon
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 4:36 PM Michel Vuijlsteke wikipedia@zog.org wrote:
I don't quite think the emoji were the only thing people hated about this.
On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 at 17:09, Joseph Seddon jseddon@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hey all,
To avoid burying the lead, the feedback is appreciated and we do listen whenever feedback is raised. I've just been coordinating with the team, and we've rolled back this change.
For some background, the emojis in this messaging were a recent addition earlier this week. Emojis have become a core part of the way the world communicates, especially with younger demographics, practically becoming an ideographic language in and of itself. The team has been keen to see if there are ways we can leverage this, especially on mobile and we’ve been experimenting with them over the last couple of years in a number of campaigns.
I want to recognise that we missed the mark on this one and that your feedback is heard, much appreciated and acted upon. The team really does care about the messaging and how it represents us, and the projects as a whole. Our processes on approving content have massively improved over the years and I think it reflects in the messaging we use. A number of people have noted that it has improved for the better over the years.
At the same time I want to take some ownership of this misstep myself. I've been proactively working in real time with some volunteers, discussing concepts and gathering feedback on campaigns. This feedback has definitely shown that for such a new concept, I should have made sure to have highlighted and gotten more input on this.
I'll be gathering input on how we use emojis in our messaging and I'd be happy to follow up with people about this. Just an additional note that if anyone wants to talk through any feedback with me I can be found on IRC, Discord, Telegram or send it through via email ( seddon at wikimedia.org ).
My apologies but also my genuine thanks for the feedback.
Seddon
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 2:24 PM Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
tend to agree there should be a mobile friendly version, the article should be visible at the same time. What wording is used it definitely should not have religious actions or symbology in it... the other emojis do seem childish
On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 at 21:58, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
I opened a browser I’m not logged in on to see what these ads were.
Here is the text, unedited, of the second ad I was shown (after closing the first):
“Hi reader 🙂. Sorry for the interruption, but this Saturday Wikipedia really needs your help. This is the 3rd appeal we've shown you. 98% of our readers don't give; they look the other way 😢. All we ask is $2.75 and then you can get back to your article. We ask you, humbly: please don't scroll away 🙏🙏.“
It would be quite helpful if the WMF’s marketing and fundraising-focused teams weren’t so intent on destroying Wikipedia’s reputation. I, and I’m sure most editors, don’t care that praying and crying emojis illicit more money. There are social and reputation costs to portraying Wikipedia like a crying, praying beggar about to go broke. And though I understand the employees responsible for pushing this nonsense in front of every reader evidently do not care about the costs of their actions, and only whatever money they can get from it, it remains wholly unacceptable.
Tell me: why should I volunteer to work on a project whose owners, regardless of the incredibly large quantities of money they already have, seek frequently to illicit donations through methods that damage Wikipedia’s reputation? Why would I give hours of my time a week to make Wikimedia projects clear of vandalism and abuse, seeking to give readers the impression of a functional and reliable source of information, knowing that some marketing person could undo all of the volunteers’ work through some ad campaign?
And yes, I also understand that volunteers complain every time this happens. There’s very good reason to do so, as every time these campaigns go out they are worse than the last, wholly ignorant of community wishes, and taking no views into account other than those who reflect purely a goal of getting more donations.
Regards, Vermont
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 05:22 Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Let's try kicking this perennial thead again.
This morning (5 Dec 2020) I paused cooling my porridge when looking up how Wikipedia describes 'Latinx' usage on my cellular, I was faced with a *2 page* advert.
- The advert meant nothing of the article could be seen, not even the
title, without having to pass the two pages of several big blue fundraising notices.
- There's some statements in those notices that, frankly, look
unencyclopaedic like "People told us we'd regret making Wikipedia a non-profit". That's a literally untrue Trumpian political sentence if ever I saw one.
- The 2 pages close with "We ask you, humbly: don't scroll away"
followed by a single option of a "MAYBE LATER" link (not a 'go away forever please' link, and yes, it's really in shouty all caps).
I might have passed on thinking, gah, not again, but there is a further sting in this tale. After working out that there was a "No thanks" link back at the start in a font smaller than all the notice text, you are faced with a second big red fundraising notice. This one has a sad weeping emoji in it, because you are going to "look the other way". I guess the idea is to make it feel like you are heartlessly walking past a beggar on the street without having the humanity to look at them, not sure how else this is supposed to read. It closes with the same "humbly" sentence, but this time with two emojis that are begging or praying hands. Personally I find being prayed at slightly offensive, Wikipedia being a haven of logical thought, not a church, but that's probably me being too black hat.
Isn't it about time the $100,000,000+ a year WMF made a design choice to stay classy and avoid multiple full page banners begging the public for money like it was about to go bust? It looks desperate because there's no other honest way to describe it.
Stay safe, wear a mask, Fae
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 12:58, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote: > > Given the large reserves that the WMF carries, and the savings from > cancelling events such as Wikimania 2020, I would have thought that the WMF > was one organisation that could afford to pause its fundraising for a few > months. At least in countries where the economy is in freefall. > > In a few months time lots of people will still be in a financial mess. But > the large number of people who are currently going to be worried about > their financial future will hopefully be divided into those who have kept > their jobs. or got new ones and those who were right to be worried. > Hopefully some of those who come through this financially OK will be in a > position to donate. > > WSC > > On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 11:25, < wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org> > wrote: > > > Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to > > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > wikimedia-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Annoying ads (John Erling Blad) > > 2. Re: Annoying ads (Benjamin Ikuta) > > 3. Re: Annoying ads (Robert Fernandez) > > 4. Re: Annoying ads (Pierre-Yves Beaudouin) > > 5. Re: Annoying ads (Nick Wilson (Quiddity)) > > 6. Re: Annoying ads (Samuel Klein) > > 7. Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta) > > 8. Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta) > > > >
> >
> >Cheers > > Message: 1 > > Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 16:55:50 +0200 > > From: John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Annoying ads > > Message-ID: > > <CAJcMX2= > > 5GgwUNkrfG6EjJsn6sB1rBF1H_FnyPhPd_Wjr5otu0A@mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > > Often I surf Wikipedia without being logged in, and so I did right now. I > > got the usual banners, but this time they popped up repeatedly in several > > locations. This quickly gets extremely annoying, and I find it unwise. > > Create one banner, and stick with that. Several banners are simply way over > > the top. > > > > /jeblad > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > ***************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto: wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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-- GN.
*Power of Diverse Collaboration* *Sharing knowledge brings people together* Wikimania Bangkok 2021 August hosted by ESEAP
Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Seddon
*Senior Community Relations Specialist* *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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-- Seddon
*Senior Community Relations Specialist* *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hey Seddon,
Thank you for reading and considering the feedback provided. I'd like to add one more perspective to the picture:
IIRC in recent years the amount of donations was constantly increasing year-by-year and it's now far more than what's necessary to cover operational expenses of the WMF. I believe one of the concerns with the fundraiser is that the size and pushiness of the ad keeps growing while the WMF becomes less in need of those donations. While it seems that the ad's size is proportional to the funds raised, making this a successful strategy in the short term, it does not come free as Wikipedia's reputation is traded in the long term.
A major concern is the sentences that manipulate readers' emotions to feel bad if they don't donate. I think we have seen that approach for fundraising many times in our lives from different sources, past and present and it never raised trust.
Another non-obvious reason in my opinion why a big part of the community can't condone these fundraisers is that we see the donations being channeled to causes that don't benefit the communities proportionally to the costs. At the same time directly beneficial areas such as the developer team lacks the funds to hire decently productive engineers with current knowledge - leaving the software that makes Wikipedia possible always a decade behind current software development and UX design practices. The WMF's current goals with the Movement Strategy would also benefit from hiring professional mediators and code of conduct educators to give a chance for the UCoC to be implemented true to its purpose instead of a dangerous tool in the hands of presumably untrained personnel.
These investments would make me suggest people to donate to the WMF, as it goes to a clearly beneficial causes, but currently the way I see it the WMF has more donations than it can invest beneficially. I find only a message that's *humble in its length* - instead of just claiming to be humble - would be appropriate.
Thank you for reading.
Aron
On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 at 18:04, Joseph Seddon jseddon@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hey Michel,
There are some other points that Fae raised particularly around user experience and technical implementation that are distinctly more complex tasks and we are going to need to discuss and plan our testing to work on them, and the team is at very limited capacity on a Saturday. (I myself had been out enjoying the rather brisk winter air that's visiting the UK). Due to their very nature, rolling back the emoji's in the messaging could be done immediately.
I've already brought the feedback back to the team, and I'll be reviewing with the team on Monday and hopefully work on them this week.
Seddon
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 4:36 PM Michel Vuijlsteke wikipedia@zog.org wrote:
I don't quite think the emoji were the only thing people hated about this.
On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 at 17:09, Joseph Seddon jseddon@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hey all,
To avoid burying the lead, the feedback is appreciated and we do listen whenever feedback is raised. I've just been coordinating with the team, and we've rolled back this change.
For some background, the emojis in this messaging were a recent addition earlier this week. Emojis have become a core part of the way the world communicates, especially with younger demographics, practically becoming an ideographic language in and of itself. The team has been keen to see if there are ways we can leverage this, especially on mobile and we’ve been experimenting with them over the last couple of years in a number of campaigns.
I want to recognise that we missed the mark on this one and that your feedback is heard, much appreciated and acted upon. The team really does care about the messaging and how it represents us, and the projects as a whole. Our processes on approving content have massively improved over the years and I think it reflects in the messaging we use. A number of people have noted that it has improved for the better over the years.
At the same time I want to take some ownership of this misstep myself. I've been proactively working in real time with some volunteers, discussing concepts and gathering feedback on campaigns. This feedback has definitely shown that for such a new concept, I should have made sure to have highlighted and gotten more input on this.
I'll be gathering input on how we use emojis in our messaging and I'd be happy to follow up with people about this. Just an additional note that if anyone wants to talk through any feedback with me I can be found on IRC, Discord, Telegram or send it through via email ( seddon at wikimedia.org ).
My apologies but also my genuine thanks for the feedback.
Seddon
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 2:24 PM Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
tend to agree there should be a mobile friendly version, the article should be visible at the same time. What wording is used it definitely should not have religious actions or symbology in it... the other emojis do seem childish
On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 at 21:58, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
I opened a browser I’m not logged in on to see what these ads were.
Here is the text, unedited, of the second ad I was shown (after closing the first):
“Hi reader 🙂. Sorry for the interruption, but this Saturday Wikipedia really needs your help. This is the 3rd appeal we've shown you. 98% of our readers don't give; they look the other way 😢. All we ask is $2.75 and then you can get back to your article. We ask you, humbly: please don't scroll away 🙏🙏.“
It would be quite helpful if the WMF’s marketing and fundraising-focused teams weren’t so intent on destroying Wikipedia’s reputation. I, and I’m sure most editors, don’t care that praying and crying emojis illicit more money. There are social and reputation costs to portraying Wikipedia like a crying, praying beggar about to go broke. And though I understand the employees responsible for pushing this nonsense in front of every reader evidently do not care about the costs of their actions, and only whatever money they can get from it, it remains wholly unacceptable.
Tell me: why should I volunteer to work on a project whose owners, regardless of the incredibly large quantities of money they already have, seek frequently to illicit donations through methods that damage Wikipedia’s reputation? Why would I give hours of my time a week to make Wikimedia projects clear of vandalism and abuse, seeking to give readers the impression of a functional and reliable source of information, knowing that some marketing person could undo all of the volunteers’ work through some ad campaign?
And yes, I also understand that volunteers complain every time this happens. There’s very good reason to do so, as every time these campaigns go out they are worse than the last, wholly ignorant of community wishes, and taking no views into account other than those who reflect purely a goal of getting more donations.
Regards, Vermont
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 05:22 Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Let's try kicking this perennial thead again.
This morning (5 Dec 2020) I paused cooling my porridge when looking up how Wikipedia describes 'Latinx' usage on my cellular, I was faced with a *2 page* advert.
- The advert meant nothing of the article could be seen, not even the
title, without having to pass the two pages of several big blue fundraising notices.
- There's some statements in those notices that, frankly, look
unencyclopaedic like "People told us we'd regret making Wikipedia a non-profit". That's a literally untrue Trumpian political sentence if ever I saw one.
- The 2 pages close with "We ask you, humbly: don't scroll away"
followed by a single option of a "MAYBE LATER" link (not a 'go away forever please' link, and yes, it's really in shouty all caps).
I might have passed on thinking, gah, not again, but there is a further sting in this tale. After working out that there was a "No thanks" link back at the start in a font smaller than all the notice text, you are faced with a second big red fundraising notice. This one has a sad weeping emoji in it, because you are going to "look the other way". I guess the idea is to make it feel like you are heartlessly walking past a beggar on the street without having the humanity to look at them, not sure how else this is supposed to read. It closes with the same "humbly" sentence, but this time with two emojis that are begging or praying hands. Personally I find being prayed at slightly offensive, Wikipedia being a haven of logical thought, not a church, but that's probably me being too black hat.
Isn't it about time the $100,000,000+ a year WMF made a design choice to stay classy and avoid multiple full page banners begging the public for money like it was about to go bust? It looks desperate because there's no other honest way to describe it.
Stay safe, wear a mask, Fae
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 12:58, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote: > > Given the large reserves that the WMF carries, and the savings from > cancelling events such as Wikimania 2020, I would have thought that the WMF > was one organisation that could afford to pause its fundraising for a few > months. At least in countries where the economy is in freefall. > > In a few months time lots of people will still be in a financial mess. But > the large number of people who are currently going to be worried about > their financial future will hopefully be divided into those who have kept > their jobs. or got new ones and those who were right to be worried. > Hopefully some of those who come through this financially OK will be in a > position to donate. > > WSC > > On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 11:25, < wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org> > wrote: > > > Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to > > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > wikimedia-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Annoying ads (John Erling Blad) > > 2. Re: Annoying ads (Benjamin Ikuta) > > 3. Re: Annoying ads (Robert Fernandez) > > 4. Re: Annoying ads (Pierre-Yves Beaudouin) > > 5. Re: Annoying ads (Nick Wilson (Quiddity)) > > 6. Re: Annoying ads (Samuel Klein) > > 7. Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta) > > 8. Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta) > > > >
> >
> >Cheers > > Message: 1 > > Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 16:55:50 +0200 > > From: John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Annoying ads > > Message-ID: > > <CAJcMX2= > > 5GgwUNkrfG6EjJsn6sB1rBF1H_FnyPhPd_Wjr5otu0A@mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > > Often I surf Wikipedia without being logged in, and so I did right now. I > > got the usual banners, but this time they popped up repeatedly in several > > locations. This quickly gets extremely annoying, and I find it unwise. > > Create one banner, and stick with that. Several banners are simply way over > > the top. > > > > /jeblad > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > ***************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto: wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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-- GN.
*Power of Diverse Collaboration* *Sharing knowledge brings people together* Wikimania Bangkok 2021 August hosted by ESEAP
Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u
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-- Seddon
*Senior Community Relations Specialist* *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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-- Seddon
*Senior Community Relations Specialist* *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Dear all,
In the context of this discussion, I think it might be appropriate to share the following. A few days ago I had a brief conversation with a (non-Wikipedian) user on social media regarding a fundraising banner they were seeing. In their case they had an additional concern with the banners (apart from "making Wikipedia unusable"). They wrote:
"<...> I find it more than a little creepy that wikipedia is tracking how often I visit."
Curious, I asked if the popup said anything about their browsing behavior, and it did (citing a snippet they have shared with me):
"Hi, reader in Canada, it seems you use Wikipedia a lot; that's great! It's awkward, but this Tuesday we need your help. This is the 10th appeal we've shown you. We don't have salespeople. Thanks to the donations of 2% of our readers, Wikipedia remains open to all. If you donate just $2.75, or whatever you can this Tuesday, Wikipedia could keep thriving. Thank you."
I have decided to look this up in the Privacy Policy, and indeed:
We want to make the Wikimedia Sites better for you by learning more about how you use them. Examples of this might include how often you visit the Wikimedia Sites, what you like, what you find helpful, how you get to the Wikimedia Sites, and whether you would use a helpful feature more if we explained it differently.
https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Privacy_policy#Information_Related_to_...
This contradicted my intition about the privacy of anonymous Wikipedia readers. It seems like some behavioral data is collected and then used to target readers for fundraising in some ways.
Is it specified in more detail anywhere what kind of behavioral data is collected, for how long it is stored, how it is associated with a reader's device(s), and what behavioral data is used in the context of fundraising specifically?
Best, -- Yury Bulka https://mamot.fr/@setthemfree #NotOnFacebook
Hey Yury,
I want to note that my response specifically deals with the messaging you raised. I will note that the privacy of our users is of paramount importance across the organisation and is taken seriously and with care. You can view with Wikimedia Foundation's data retention guidelines on Meta. [1]
Regarding the specifics about fundraising, the system that delivers banners is CentralNotice and the tools that we use are fairly basic. [2] [3]
CentralNotice notes how many times someone has seen a particular fundraising campaign. This number is counted and kept within the web browsers localstorage and not a cookie. This means that information is NOT stored in the HTTP request header sent to our servers.
This feature is used for all sorts of community and programmatic banners as well as fundraising. It means that when an individual has seen X number of banners within their browser they don't see anymore. We wrote a blog post about this a couple of years ago. [4]
All we are doing is taking the same number that is stored and using that to note in the message. We don't track users through CentralNotice across browsers to set messaging, nor do we track across devices via CentralNotice to set messaging.
I will say that even though it IS privacy sensitive, the potential perception of it is something we will need to think about and along with the other feedback will be something we talk about as a team this week.
Regards Seddon
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Data_retention_guidelines [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:CentralNotice [3] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:CentralNotice [4] https://diff.wikimedia.org/2017/10/03/fundraising-banner-limit/
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 7:40 PM Yury Bulka setthemfree@privacyrequired.com wrote:
Dear all,
In the context of this discussion, I think it might be appropriate to share the following. A few days ago I had a brief conversation with a (non-Wikipedian) user on social media regarding a fundraising banner they were seeing. In their case they had an additional concern with the banners (apart from "making Wikipedia unusable"). They wrote:
"<...> I find it more than a little creepy that wikipedia is tracking how often I visit."
Curious, I asked if the popup said anything about their browsing behavior, and it did (citing a snippet they have shared with me):
"Hi, reader in Canada, it seems you use Wikipedia a lot; that's great! It's awkward, but this Tuesday we need your help. This is the 10th appeal we've shown you. We don't have salespeople. Thanks to the donations of 2% of our readers, Wikipedia remains open to all. If you donate just $2.75, or whatever you can this Tuesday, Wikipedia could keep thriving. Thank you."
I have decided to look this up in the Privacy Policy, and indeed:
We want to make the Wikimedia Sites better for you by learning more about how you use them. Examples of this might include how often you visit the Wikimedia Sites, what you like, what you find helpful, how you get to the Wikimedia Sites, and whether you would use a helpful feature more if we explained it differently.
https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Privacy_policy#Information_Related_to_...
This contradicted my intition about the privacy of anonymous Wikipedia readers. It seems like some behavioral data is collected and then used to target readers for fundraising in some ways.
Is it specified in more detail anywhere what kind of behavioral data is collected, for how long it is stored, how it is associated with a reader's device(s), and what behavioral data is used in the context of fundraising specifically?
Best,
Yury Bulka https://mamot.fr/@setthemfree #NotOnFacebook
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hi Seddon,
Thanks for removing the emojis; without them, the banner is infinitely more professional.
Regards, Vermont
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 11:09 Joseph Seddon jseddon@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hey all,
To avoid burying the lead, the feedback is appreciated and we do listen whenever feedback is raised. I've just been coordinating with the team, and we've rolled back this change.
For some background, the emojis in this messaging were a recent addition earlier this week. Emojis have become a core part of the way the world communicates, especially with younger demographics, practically becoming an ideographic language in and of itself. The team has been keen to see if there are ways we can leverage this, especially on mobile and we’ve been experimenting with them over the last couple of years in a number of campaigns.
I want to recognise that we missed the mark on this one and that your feedback is heard, much appreciated and acted upon. The team really does care about the messaging and how it represents us, and the projects as a whole. Our processes on approving content have massively improved over the years and I think it reflects in the messaging we use. A number of people have noted that it has improved for the better over the years.
At the same time I want to take some ownership of this misstep myself. I've been proactively working in real time with some volunteers, discussing concepts and gathering feedback on campaigns. This feedback has definitely shown that for such a new concept, I should have made sure to have highlighted and gotten more input on this.
I'll be gathering input on how we use emojis in our messaging and I'd be happy to follow up with people about this. Just an additional note that if anyone wants to talk through any feedback with me I can be found on IRC, Discord, Telegram or send it through via email ( seddon at wikimedia.org ).
My apologies but also my genuine thanks for the feedback.
Seddon
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 2:24 PM Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
tend to agree there should be a mobile friendly version, the article should be visible at the same time. What wording is used it definitely should not have religious actions or symbology in it... the other emojis do seem childish
On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 at 21:58, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
I opened a browser I’m not logged in on to see what these ads were.
Here is the text, unedited, of the second ad I was shown (after closing the first):
“Hi reader 🙂. Sorry for the interruption, but this Saturday Wikipedia really needs your help. This is the 3rd appeal we've shown you. 98% of our readers don't give; they look the other way 😢. All we ask is $2.75 and then you can get back to your article. We ask you, humbly: please don't scroll away 🙏🙏.“
It would be quite helpful if the WMF’s marketing and fundraising-focused teams weren’t so intent on destroying Wikipedia’s reputation. I, and I’m sure most editors, don’t care that praying and crying emojis illicit more money. There are social and reputation costs to portraying Wikipedia like a crying, praying beggar about to go broke. And though I understand the employees responsible for pushing this nonsense in front of every reader evidently do not care about the costs of their actions, and only whatever money they can get from it, it remains wholly unacceptable.
Tell me: why should I volunteer to work on a project whose owners, regardless of the incredibly large quantities of money they already have, seek frequently to illicit donations through methods that damage Wikipedia’s reputation? Why would I give hours of my time a week to make Wikimedia projects clear of vandalism and abuse, seeking to give readers the impression of a functional and reliable source of information, knowing that some marketing person could undo all of the volunteers’ work through some ad campaign?
And yes, I also understand that volunteers complain every time this happens. There’s very good reason to do so, as every time these campaigns go out they are worse than the last, wholly ignorant of community wishes, and taking no views into account other than those who reflect purely a goal of getting more donations.
Regards, Vermont
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 05:22 Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Let's try kicking this perennial thead again.
This morning (5 Dec 2020) I paused cooling my porridge when looking up how Wikipedia describes 'Latinx' usage on my cellular, I was faced with a *2 page* advert.
- The advert meant nothing of the article could be seen, not even the
title, without having to pass the two pages of several big blue fundraising notices.
- There's some statements in those notices that, frankly, look
unencyclopaedic like "People told us we'd regret making Wikipedia a non-profit". That's a literally untrue Trumpian political sentence if ever I saw one.
- The 2 pages close with "We ask you, humbly: don't scroll away"
followed by a single option of a "MAYBE LATER" link (not a 'go away forever please' link, and yes, it's really in shouty all caps).
I might have passed on thinking, gah, not again, but there is a further sting in this tale. After working out that there was a "No thanks" link back at the start in a font smaller than all the notice text, you are faced with a second big red fundraising notice. This one has a sad weeping emoji in it, because you are going to "look the other way". I guess the idea is to make it feel like you are heartlessly walking past a beggar on the street without having the humanity to look at them, not sure how else this is supposed to read. It closes with the same "humbly" sentence, but this time with two emojis that are begging or praying hands. Personally I find being prayed at slightly offensive, Wikipedia being a haven of logical thought, not a church, but that's probably me being too black hat.
Isn't it about time the $100,000,000+ a year WMF made a design choice to stay classy and avoid multiple full page banners begging the public for money like it was about to go bust? It looks desperate because there's no other honest way to describe it.
Stay safe, wear a mask, Fae
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 12:58, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
Given the large reserves that the WMF carries, and the savings from cancelling events such as Wikimania 2020, I would have thought that
the WMF
was one organisation that could afford to pause its fundraising for a
few
months. At least in countries where the economy is in freefall.
In a few months time lots of people will still be in a financial
mess. But
the large number of people who are currently going to be worried about their financial future will hopefully be divided into those who have
kept
their jobs. or got new ones and those who were right to be worried. Hopefully some of those who come through this financially OK will be
in a
position to donate.
WSC
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 11:25, <wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
wrote:
Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Today's Topics:
- Annoying ads (John Erling Blad)
- Re: Annoying ads (Benjamin Ikuta)
- Re: Annoying ads (Robert Fernandez)
- Re: Annoying ads (Pierre-Yves Beaudouin)
- Re: Annoying ads (Nick Wilson (Quiddity))
- Re: Annoying ads (Samuel Klein)
- Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta)
- Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta)
Cheers Message: 1 Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 16:55:50 +0200 From: John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Annoying ads Message-ID: <CAJcMX2= 5GgwUNkrfG6EjJsn6sB1rBF1H_FnyPhPd_Wjr5otu0A@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Often I surf Wikipedia without being logged in, and so I did right
now. I
got the usual banners, but this time they popped up repeatedly in
several
locations. This quickly gets extremely annoying, and I find it
unwise.
Create one banner, and stick with that. Several banners are simply
way over
the top.
/jeblad
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-- GN.
*Power of Diverse Collaboration* *Sharing knowledge brings people together* Wikimania Bangkok 2021 August hosted by ESEAP
Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Seddon
*Senior Community Relations Specialist* *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Kaya Aron
The software engineers are decent and many of them also have a Wikimedia contribution background giving them the knowledge to benefit all the projects, they are also spread across the globe making sure there is someone available at all times to keep on top of any system issue should they arise.
The WMF has hired people for movement strategy implementation, there have been significant discussions on implementation over the last few months. Both the key points you raised are being addressed and funded.
As a community we invested a lot of time and resources to be taken seriously, we continue to do so. I agree with Vermont here that without the emojis the banner looks more professional, whether emojis return or not the must also remember that the projects are neutral, that they dont exclude people nor drive them away.
Boodarwun
On Sun, 6 Dec 2020 at 06:23, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
Hi Seddon,
Thanks for removing the emojis; without them, the banner is infinitely more professional.
Regards, Vermont
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 11:09 Joseph Seddon jseddon@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hey all,
To avoid burying the lead, the feedback is appreciated and we do listen whenever feedback is raised. I've just been coordinating with the team, and we've rolled back this change.
For some background, the emojis in this messaging were a recent addition earlier this week. Emojis have become a core part of the way the world communicates, especially with younger demographics, practically becoming an ideographic language in and of itself. The team has been keen to see if there are ways we can leverage this, especially on mobile and we’ve been experimenting with them over the last couple of years in a number of campaigns.
I want to recognise that we missed the mark on this one and that your feedback is heard, much appreciated and acted upon. The team really does care about the messaging and how it represents us, and the projects as a whole. Our processes on approving content have massively improved over the years and I think it reflects in the messaging we use. A number of people have noted that it has improved for the better over the years.
At the same time I want to take some ownership of this misstep myself. I've been proactively working in real time with some volunteers, discussing concepts and gathering feedback on campaigns. This feedback has definitely shown that for such a new concept, I should have made sure to have highlighted and gotten more input on this.
I'll be gathering input on how we use emojis in our messaging and I'd be happy to follow up with people about this. Just an additional note that if anyone wants to talk through any feedback with me I can be found on IRC, Discord, Telegram or send it through via email ( seddon at wikimedia.org ).
My apologies but also my genuine thanks for the feedback.
Seddon
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 2:24 PM Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
tend to agree there should be a mobile friendly version, the article should be visible at the same time. What wording is used it definitely should not have religious actions or symbology in it... the other emojis do seem childish
On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 at 21:58, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
I opened a browser I’m not logged in on to see what these ads were.
Here is the text, unedited, of the second ad I was shown (after closing the first):
“Hi reader 🙂. Sorry for the interruption, but this Saturday Wikipedia really needs your help. This is the 3rd appeal we've shown you. 98% of our readers don't give; they look the other way 😢. All we ask is $2.75 and then you can get back to your article. We ask you, humbly: please don't scroll away 🙏🙏.“
It would be quite helpful if the WMF’s marketing and fundraising-focused teams weren’t so intent on destroying Wikipedia’s reputation. I, and I’m sure most editors, don’t care that praying and crying emojis illicit more money. There are social and reputation costs to portraying Wikipedia like a crying, praying beggar about to go broke. And though I understand the employees responsible for pushing this nonsense in front of every reader evidently do not care about the costs of their actions, and only whatever money they can get from it, it remains wholly unacceptable.
Tell me: why should I volunteer to work on a project whose owners, regardless of the incredibly large quantities of money they already have, seek frequently to illicit donations through methods that damage Wikipedia’s reputation? Why would I give hours of my time a week to make Wikimedia projects clear of vandalism and abuse, seeking to give readers the impression of a functional and reliable source of information, knowing that some marketing person could undo all of the volunteers’ work through some ad campaign?
And yes, I also understand that volunteers complain every time this happens. There’s very good reason to do so, as every time these campaigns go out they are worse than the last, wholly ignorant of community wishes, and taking no views into account other than those who reflect purely a goal of getting more donations.
Regards, Vermont
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 05:22 Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Let's try kicking this perennial thead again.
This morning (5 Dec 2020) I paused cooling my porridge when looking up how Wikipedia describes 'Latinx' usage on my cellular, I was faced with a *2 page* advert.
- The advert meant nothing of the article could be seen, not even the
title, without having to pass the two pages of several big blue fundraising notices.
- There's some statements in those notices that, frankly, look
unencyclopaedic like "People told us we'd regret making Wikipedia a non-profit". That's a literally untrue Trumpian political sentence if ever I saw one.
- The 2 pages close with "We ask you, humbly: don't scroll away"
followed by a single option of a "MAYBE LATER" link (not a 'go away forever please' link, and yes, it's really in shouty all caps).
I might have passed on thinking, gah, not again, but there is a further sting in this tale. After working out that there was a "No thanks" link back at the start in a font smaller than all the notice text, you are faced with a second big red fundraising notice. This one has a sad weeping emoji in it, because you are going to "look the other way". I guess the idea is to make it feel like you are heartlessly walking past a beggar on the street without having the humanity to look at them, not sure how else this is supposed to read. It closes with the same "humbly" sentence, but this time with two emojis that are begging or praying hands. Personally I find being prayed at slightly offensive, Wikipedia being a haven of logical thought, not a church, but that's probably me being too black hat.
Isn't it about time the $100,000,000+ a year WMF made a design choice to stay classy and avoid multiple full page banners begging the public for money like it was about to go bust? It looks desperate because there's no other honest way to describe it.
Stay safe, wear a mask, Fae
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 12:58, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
Given the large reserves that the WMF carries, and the savings from cancelling events such as Wikimania 2020, I would have thought that
the WMF
was one organisation that could afford to pause its fundraising for
a few
months. At least in countries where the economy is in freefall.
In a few months time lots of people will still be in a financial
mess. But
the large number of people who are currently going to be worried
about
their financial future will hopefully be divided into those who have
kept
their jobs. or got new ones and those who were right to be worried. Hopefully some of those who come through this financially OK will be
in a
position to donate.
WSC
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 11:25, <
wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org>
wrote:
> Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > wikimedia-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Annoying ads (John Erling Blad) > 2. Re: Annoying ads (Benjamin Ikuta) > 3. Re: Annoying ads (Robert Fernandez) > 4. Re: Annoying ads (Pierre-Yves Beaudouin) > 5. Re: Annoying ads (Nick Wilson (Quiddity)) > 6. Re: Annoying ads (Samuel Klein) > 7. Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta) > 8. Re: Annoying ads (Paulo Santos Perneta) > > >
>Cheers > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 16:55:50 +0200 > From: John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com > To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Annoying ads > Message-ID: > <CAJcMX2= > 5GgwUNkrfG6EjJsn6sB1rBF1H_FnyPhPd_Wjr5otu0A@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Often I surf Wikipedia without being logged in, and so I did right
now. I
> got the usual banners, but this time they popped up repeatedly in
several
> locations. This quickly gets extremely annoying, and I find it
unwise.
> Create one banner, and stick with that. Several banners are simply
way over
> the top. > > /jeblad > > > ------------------------------ > > ***************************** > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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-- GN.
*Power of Diverse Collaboration* *Sharing knowledge brings people together* Wikimania Bangkok 2021 August hosted by ESEAP
Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Seddon
*Senior Community Relations Specialist* *Advancement (Fundraising), Wikimedia Foundation* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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