Hoi, According to an article on the BBC website, it is now possible to have a URL that is completely in the script used for a language. This means that a Russian URL would be completely in the Cyrillic script and it would not need to end with .org.
I would like the Wikimedia Foundation to get the necessary domains to support the scripts that we have language versions in. The BBC article explains that people do find the need to move from one script to the other as problematic and cumbersome. Obviously, we can have the necessary mapping from our current Latin based URLs to the ones in other scripts. This will be an important feature because we want people to easily move between our projects. Thanks, GerardM
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
According to an article on the BBC website, it is now possible to have a URL that is completely in the script used for a language. This means that a Russian URL would be completely in the Cyrillic script and it would not need to end with .org.
I would like the Wikimedia Foundation to get the necessary domains to support the scripts that we have language versions in. The BBC article explains that people do find the need to move from one script to the other as problematic and cumbersome. Obviously, we can have the necessary mapping from our current Latin based URLs to the ones in other scripts. This will be an important feature because we want people to easily move between our projects.
I'm not sure how popular such domains will become. However, I believe at least a few key ones should be registered, in order to prevent squatters and protect the trademarks. It appears that 维基百科.com is already registered, though it doesn't point anywhere. 维基百科.org is still free...
Hoi, The news is that you do not need the .org part anymore in the Latin script. You mention that you do not know if it will be popular ... this is the kind of thing that will slowly grow and then mushroom. Where you indicate that domain names are squatted, there are procedures to gain those names. For a project like Wikipedia it is obvious that we can gain specific domains.. The thing is what word in Cyrillic or other script will be the one that we will use. Thanks, GerardM
2009/10/30 Nikola Smolenski smolensk@eunet.rs
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
According to an article on the BBC website, it is now possible to have a
URL
that is completely in the script used for a language. This means that a Russian URL would be completely in the Cyrillic script and it would not
need
to end with .org.
I would like the Wikimedia Foundation to get the necessary domains to support the scripts that we have language versions in. The BBC article explains that people do find the need to move from one script to the
other
as problematic and cumbersome. Obviously, we can have the necessary
mapping
from our current Latin based URLs to the ones in other scripts. This will
be
an important feature because we want people to easily move between our projects.
I'm not sure how popular such domains will become. However, I believe at least a few key ones should be registered, in order to prevent squatters and protect the trademarks. It appears that 维基百科.comhttp://xn--3js032e7ich4g.comis already registered, though it doesn't point anywhere. 维基百科.orghttp://xn--3js032e7ich4g.orgis still free...
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On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, The news is that you do not need the .org part anymore in the Latin script. You mention that you do not know if it will be popular ... this is the kind of thing that will slowly grow and then mushroom. Where you indicate that domain names are squatted, there are procedures to gain those names. For a project like Wikipedia it is obvious that we can gain specific domains.. The thing is what word in Cyrillic or other script will be the one that we will use. Thanks, GerardM
2009/10/30 Nikola Smolenski smolensk@eunet.rs
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
According to an article on the BBC website, it is now possible to have a
URL
that is completely in the script used for a language. This means that a Russian URL would be completely in the Cyrillic script and it would not
need
to end with .org.
I would like the Wikimedia Foundation to get the necessary domains to support the scripts that we have language versions in. The BBC article explains that people do find the need to move from one script to the
other
as problematic and cumbersome. Obviously, we can have the necessary
mapping
from our current Latin based URLs to the ones in other scripts. This will
be
an important feature because we want people to easily move between our projects.
I'm not sure how popular such domains will become. However, I believe at least a few key ones should be registered, in order to prevent squatters and protect the trademarks. It appears that 维基百科.comhttp://xn--3js032e7ich4g.comis already registered, though it doesn't point anywhere. 维基百科.orghttp://xn--3js032e7ich4g.orgis still free...
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This got talked about on the Rachel Maddow show on MSNBC this evening, her guest was one of the editors from BoingBoing. Thought it was cool that it's getting some high-level media mention :)
-Chad
Gerard,
I don't think we currently register wikipedia.cn or 维基百科.cnhttp://%e7%bb%b4%e5%9f%ba%e7%99%be%e7%a7%91.org/or 维基百科.org http://%e7%bb%b4%e5%9f%ba%e7%99%be%e7%a7%91.org/. When the new ICANN policies are in place, as I understand it, there will be four new domains possible: wikipedia.c?n?, wikipedia.o?r?g?, 维基百科.c?n?http://%e7%bb%b4%e5%9f%ba%e7%99%be%e7%a7%91.org/and 维基百科.o?r?g? http://%e7%bb%b4%e5%9f%ba%e7%99%be%e7%a7%91.org/... which of these are you suggesting using?
SJ
On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 7:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.comwrote:
Hoi, According to an article on the BBC website, it is now possible to have a URL that is completely in the script used for a language. This means that a Russian URL would be completely in the Cyrillic script and it would not need to end with .org.
I would like the Wikimedia Foundation to get the necessary domains to support the scripts that we have language versions in. The BBC article explains that people do find the need to move from one script to the other as problematic and cumbersome. Obviously, we can have the necessary mapping from our current Latin based URLs to the ones in other scripts. This will be an important feature because we want people to easily move between our projects. Thanks, GerardM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8333209.stm _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Hoi, In your question the key thing to appreciate is that it is the .org part that does not need to be in the Latin script any more. What I propose is that we support the whole "wikipedia.org" part and "wiktionary.org" part once in each script.
What the word is for Wikipedia is not my call. This is either obvious or a choice is to be made. We will gain a lot in usability when our whole experience can be wholly in the one script that is most comfortable to the user. It is relevant to note that the language codes we use in front of " wikipedia.org" need to be transcribed. Thanks, GerardM
2009/10/31 Samuel Klein meta.sj@gmail.com
Gerard,
I don't think we currently register wikipedia.cn or 维基百科.cn http://xn--3js032e7ich4g.cnhttp:// %e7%bb%b4%e5%9f%ba%e7%99%be%e7%a7%91.org/or 维基百科.org http://xn--3js032e7ich4g.org http:// %e7%bb%b4%e5%9f%ba%e7%99%be%e7%a7%91.org/. When the new ICANN policies are in place, as I understand it, there will be four new domains possible: wikipedia.c?n?, wikipedia.o?r?g?, 维基百科.c?n?http://%e7%bb%b4%e5%9f%ba%e7%99%be%e7%a7%91.org/and 维基百科.o?r?g? http://%e7%bb%b4%e5%9f%ba%e7%99%be%e7%a7%91.org/... which of these are you suggesting using?
SJ
On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 7:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.comwrote:
Hoi, According to an article on the BBC website, it is now possible to have a URL that is completely in the script used for a language. This means that a Russian URL would be completely in the Cyrillic script and it would not need to end with .org.
I would like the Wikimedia Foundation to get the necessary domains to support the scripts that we have language versions in. The BBC article explains that people do find the need to move from one script to the
other
as problematic and cumbersome. Obviously, we can have the necessary
mapping
from our current Latin based URLs to the ones in other scripts. This will be an important feature because we want people to easily move between our projects. Thanks, GerardM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8333209.stm _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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I see. So you'd like to see double the number of site registrations; in this case adding 维基百科.o?r?g? to zh.wikipedia.org
That strikes me as a significant expense for uncertain result; but it would make a good strategy proposal -- especially if you can find users from ar, zh, ru, and indic-language communities to weigh in on how often they visit non-latin-script url's today. [presumably someone who really prefers using non-latin scripts would be visiting sites today whose full url, other than the TLD code, was in a non-latin script.]
SJ
On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 2:27 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.comwrote:
Hoi, In your question the key thing to appreciate is that it is the .org part that does not need to be in the Latin script any more. What I propose is that we support the whole "wikipedia.org" part and "wiktionary.org" part once in each script.
What the word is for Wikipedia is not my call. This is either obvious or a choice is to be made. We will gain a lot in usability when our whole experience can be wholly in the one script that is most comfortable to the user. It is relevant to note that the language codes we use in front of " wikipedia.org" need to be transcribed. Thanks, GerardM
2009/10/31 Samuel Klein meta.sj@gmail.com
Gerard,
I don't think we currently register wikipedia.cn or 维基百科.cn http://xn--3js032e7ich4g.cn <http://xn--3js032e7ich4g.cn http:// %e7%bb%b4%e5%9f%ba%e7%99%be%e7%a7%91.org/or 维基百科.org http://xn--3js032e7ich4g.org http://xn--3js032e7ich4g.org
<http://
%e7%bb%b4%e5%9f%ba%e7%99%be%e7%a7%91.org/>. When the new ICANN policies are in place, as I understand it, there will be four new domains possible: wikipedia.c?n?, wikipedia.o?r?g?, 维基百科.c?n?http://%e7%bb%b4%e5%9f%ba%e7%99%be%e7%a7%91.org/and 维基百科.o?r?g? http://%e7%bb%b4%e5%9f%ba%e7%99%be%e7%a7%91.org/... which
of
these are you suggesting using?
SJ
On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 7:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.comwrote:
Hoi, According to an article on the BBC website, it is now possible to have
a
URL that is completely in the script used for a language. This means that a Russian URL would be completely in the Cyrillic script and it would not need to end with .org.
I would like the Wikimedia Foundation to get the necessary domains to support the scripts that we have language versions in. The BBC article explains that people do find the need to move from one script to the
other
as problematic and cumbersome. Obviously, we can have the necessary
mapping
from our current Latin based URLs to the ones in other scripts. This
will
be an important feature because we want people to easily move between our projects. Thanks, GerardM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8333209.stm _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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By the way Hungary supports accented domains for some years now and the experience shows that they are not used at all. Penetration is so low that I couldn't even tell you one to test.
(We have, for example http://wikip%C3%A9dia.hu/, but it's rather a test than a real usage.)
Apart from that Wikipedia is large enough to create trends, so by no means take my comment as an opposition.
grin
Hoi, The Hungarian Wikipedia is written in the Latin script so the experience cannot be compared. Thanks, GerardM
2009/10/31 Peter Gervai grinapo@gmail.com
By the way Hungary supports accented domains for some years now and the experience shows that they are not used at all. Penetration is so low that I couldn't even tell you one to test.
(We have, for example http://wikip%C3%A9dia.hu/ http://xn--wikipdia-f1a.hu/, but it's rather a test than a real usage.)
Apart from that Wikipedia is large enough to create trends, so by no means take my comment as an opposition.
grin
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On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 08:02, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
The Hungarian Wikipedia is written in the Latin script
I'm kind of guessed that. :-]
so the experience cannot be compared.
It is not the same, but indeed they can be compared. Straight denial doesn't always helpful. And no need to debate, just acknowledge the fact that people's habit may be stronger than you guess. :-)
regards, grin
Hoi, So you want to have a comparison.
When you type in the Korean script, you have to change your keyboard in order to be able to type a URL. Alternatively for the advanced users, you know the codes for the characters that are the suffix for a domain. The vast majority of people do not know how to do this.
When you type in the Latin script, when your language is Hungarian, you do not have to change your keyboard mapping. I expect that the characters are right there in front of you.
Our objective is to reach out to all people of this world and provide them with the information that they seek. Sue indicated that she wishes for the WMF projects to have the number five reach in every country. It helps when our wikis are super usable, when our usability is much improved. Remember that in a UNESCO study they found that 100% of a group of testsubjects were not able to create a new article. This means that the argument of what some people are used to is not that strong.
The good news is, every thing will remain the same for the hu.wikipedia.org. It does not need any change. Other languages like Russian, Chinese, Hindi have the potential to grow much bigger then they are today, they have a different script, they may benefit when we consider measures that make it easy on the many people who are new to Wikipedia. When a URL can be fully in one script, you will find increasingly people who will not be interested in those websites that are not considered enough to reach out.
I have presented you with the arguments why we should adopt full URL's in other scripts in addition to our current domains. I hope that you see my point but we can debate them anyway. Thanks, GerardM
2009/10/31 Peter Gervai grinapo@gmail.com
On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 08:02, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
The Hungarian Wikipedia is written in the Latin script
I'm kind of guessed that. :-]
so the experience cannot be compared.
It is not the same, but indeed they can be compared. Straight denial doesn't always helpful. And no need to debate, just acknowledge the fact that people's habit may be stronger than you guess. :-)
regards, grin
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On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 16:56, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
So you want to have a comparison.
No. I have offered experience.
When you type in the Korean script,
[...]
The vast majority of people do not know how to do this.
What does a korean end user do now, when s/he wants to see a webpage? They cannot type any URL, right? I wonder.
our wikis are super usable, when our usability is much improved.
I would guess, without any prior research, that people who cannot type latin script (though how they type URLs then is a mistery to me) would use search engines, and those doesn't really care about domain names.
that in a UNESCO study they found that 100% of a group of testsubjects were not able to create a new article.
You mean no Korean citizen whatsoever was able to create a new article? Weird.
The good news is, every thing will remain the same for the hu.wikipedia.org.
I work with domains for the last 10 or so years, so I guess I have some limited insights with these matters, but thanks for the relieving comment. :-)
It does not need any change. Other languages like Russian, Chinese, Hindi have the potential to grow much bigger then they are today, they have a
You probably have missed my last sentence informing you about my comment not being an opposition, so really you do not need to either defend or debate the topic. But I'm really interested in current real world usage of the internet there, how they type URLs, how they access the pages without latin script, or are they even able to know what these funny letters are what we use. I have no idea what kind of education people have who have access to the net. And whether there are large percentage of those with access not being able to type latin script. (All of the asians I know have keyboard switching active and they are fully able to use latin script for URLs. But that's a relaly small sample.)
I have presented you with the arguments why we should adopt full URL's in other scripts in addition to our current domains. I hope that you see my point but we can debate them anyway.
Since this requires close to zero work, no software or changes I do not see what part of it could be debated. It have a registration cost, the domains have to be set up and that's all. Probably if the Foundation wouldn't be interested I would register them and create the redirect (as I have done with the example I have mentioned earlier) if I were asian, but since I am not I am a neutral party.It is even possible that asian colleagues already created such redirects, who knows?
Really no need to convince me, I'm for it.
When you type in the Korean script,
[...]
The vast majority of people do not know how to do this.
What does a korean end user do now, when s/he wants to see a webpage? They cannot type any URL, right? I wonder.
The Korean keyboard is really just a modified Qwerty keyboard, and I don't think I've ever seen one that didn't have Roman letters shown on the keys alongside the Korean letters. There are extra keys for changing between the Korean and Qwerty keyboard layouts, and for entering Chinese characters, though these can only be used with MS Windows. (There are other ways to switch keyboards when using Linux or Mac, and actually there are several different Korean keyboard layouts, though only one is commonly used).
Most Korean Internet users are used to typing in Roman letters, but it would a problem for new computer users, such as the pensioners mentioned in the BBC article. Anyway, it would clearly be better if people didn't have to keep changing to a foreign alphabet / keyboard layout when they wanted to use the Internet (local Internet portals do partly solve that though).
The BBC article mentions the possibility of ghettoization, but the opposite could happen if there is less need to rely on Internet portals in one's native language or script.
our wikis are super usable, when our usability is much improved.
I would guess, without any prior research, that people who cannot type latin script (though how they type URLs then is a mistery to me) would use search engines, and those doesn't really care about domain names.
that in a UNESCO study they found that 100% of a group of testsubjects
were
not able to create a new article.
You mean no Korean citizen whatsoever was able to create a new article? Weird.
I would guess that UNESCO's sample may not have been entirely representative.
Richard
Hoi, The BBC article I referred to explained the benefits; the usability is much improved. It is nasty to have to switch to another keyboard whenever a URL is to be typed. When you consider that half the world population does not use the Latin script for their language, the benefit should be obvious. The expense consists of one domain per script.. So let us be generous and have 20 scripts to support, it means that we need active domains only for those domains that we have an active project in. While this is a recurring cost, it is not a significant one and, it is one that improves our usability demonstrably.
Currently it is possible to have the domain partly in other scripts. The benefits are debatable because you still need to end these with the .net .org .com whatever suffix in the Latin script. With the new script support, the full URL can be fully in Unicode supported scripts. Thanks, GerardM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8333209.stm
2009/10/31 Samuel Klein meta.sj@gmail.com
I see. So you'd like to see double the number of site registrations; in this case adding 维基百科.o?r?g? to zh.wikipedia.org
That strikes me as a significant expense for uncertain result; but it would make a good strategy proposal -- especially if you can find users from ar, zh, ru, and indic-language communities to weigh in on how often they visit non-latin-script url's today. [presumably someone who really prefers using non-latin scripts would be visiting sites today whose full url, other than the TLD code, was in a non-latin script.]
SJ
On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 2:27 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.comwrote:
Hoi, In your question the key thing to appreciate is that it is the .org part that does not need to be in the Latin script any more. What I propose is that we support the whole "wikipedia.org" part and "wiktionary.org" part once in each script.
What the word is for Wikipedia is not my call. This is either obvious or
a
choice is to be made. We will gain a lot in usability when our whole experience can be wholly in the one script that is most comfortable to
the
user. It is relevant to note that the language codes we use in front of " wikipedia.org" need to be transcribed. Thanks, GerardM
2009/10/31 Samuel Klein meta.sj@gmail.com
Gerard,
I don't think we currently register wikipedia.cn or 维基百科.cn http://xn--3js032e7ich4g.cn http://xn--3js032e7ich4g.cn <
http:// %e7%bb%b4%e5%9f%ba%e7%99%be%e7%a7%91.org/or 维基百科.org http://xn--3js032e7ich4g.org http://xn--3js032e7ich4g.org
<http://
%e7%bb%b4%e5%9f%ba%e7%99%be%e7%a7%91.org/>. When the new ICANN policies are in place, as I understand it, there will be four new domains possible: wikipedia.c?n?, wikipedia.o?r?g?, 维基百科.c?n?http://%e7%bb%b4%e5%9f%ba%e7%99%be%e7%a7%91.org/and 维基百科.o?r?g? http://%e7%bb%b4%e5%9f%ba%e7%99%be%e7%a7%91.org/...
which
of
these are you suggesting using?
SJ
On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 7:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.comwrote:
Hoi, According to an article on the BBC website, it is now possible to
have
a
URL that is completely in the script used for a language. This means that
a
Russian URL would be completely in the Cyrillic script and it would
not
need to end with .org.
I would like the Wikimedia Foundation to get the necessary domains to support the scripts that we have language versions in. The BBC
article
explains that people do find the need to move from one script to the
other
as problematic and cumbersome. Obviously, we can have the necessary
mapping
from our current Latin based URLs to the ones in other scripts. This
will
be an important feature because we want people to easily move between
our
projects. Thanks, GerardM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8333209.stm _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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Do you need to register domains under these new internationalised TLDs? To me it seems to be the obvious solution, that the internationalised TLDs will be aliases to the existing ones. So wikipedia.cn and 维基百科. c?n? will point to the same target. That's how I would solve it and I really see no reson to do it in any other way. But I couldn't find any information whether this is the case or not. I still could be wrong about this assumption. But if they will be aliases nothing needs to be done by the Foundation.
At the moment it is only planned to internationalise some few country TLDs. .org and other gTLDs will not be internationalised for the moment.
Marcus Buck User:Slomox
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