A comment in IRC yesterday raised a concern for me which I would like to see addressed.
Cormac mentioned that he and Mr Horning had discussed moving textbooks and curricula from en.Wikibooks to en.Wikiversity. He was unsure if this meant the textbooks would be deleted from en.Wikibooks, but he was sure any contributors who preferred working on en.Wikibooks would be able to copy them back to that project.
This seems extremely odd to me, that deleting a textbook from Wikibooks would even be contemplated. Educational materials are, after all, the mission of the project. And dividing a textbook between projects seems to be forking, both of the book in question and the potential contributors as well, again something which should not even be contemplated in my opinion.
Could the Wikiversity project please clarify this?
Amgine
Good gracious! Projects pillaging from another whilst still in Beta? *DELETING* content (not sharing it) and popping it in elsewhere?
That's a serious, serious problem, if true. I tend to think of removal of benign content as somewhat heretical, bordering on anarchic. Please help me understand where we have failed if that is what people think is acceptable practice.
-B
Amgine wrote:
A comment in IRC yesterday raised a concern for me which I would like to see addressed.
Cormac mentioned that he and Mr Horning had discussed moving textbooks and curricula from en.Wikibooks to en.Wikiversity. He was unsure if this meant the textbooks would be deleted from en.Wikibooks, but he was sure any contributors who preferred working on en.Wikibooks would be able to copy them back to that project.
This seems extremely odd to me, that deleting a textbook from Wikibooks would even be contemplated. Educational materials are, after all, the mission of the project. And dividing a textbook between projects seems to be forking, both of the book in question and the potential contributors as well, again something which should not even be contemplated in my opinion.
Could the Wikiversity project please clarify this?
Amgine
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
I would assume that they were referring to moving the content in the Wikiversity namespace (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity). There is plenty of content that is not appropriate for Wikibooks in this namespace. AFAIK no one wants to delete actual textbooks from Wikibooks.
The note on Wikibook's Wikiversity page states: "Material not in the "Wikiversity:" namespace should not be deleted off this server unless it has undergone an official transwiki AND it has been confirmed by Wikibookians that it does not meet Wikibooks' inclusion criteria."
I believe this notice accurately reflects the views of the Wikibooks community.
Craig
Amgine wrote:
A comment in IRC yesterday raised a concern for me which I would like to see addressed.
Cormac mentioned that he and Mr Horning had discussed moving textbooks and curricula from en.Wikibooks to en.Wikiversity. He was unsure if this meant the textbooks would be deleted from en.Wikibooks, but he was sure any contributors who preferred working on en.Wikibooks would be able to copy them back to that project.
This seems extremely odd to me, that deleting a textbook from Wikibooks would even be contemplated. Educational materials are, after all, the mission of the project. And dividing a textbook between projects seems to be forking, both of the book in question and the potential contributors as well, again something which should not even be contemplated in my opinion.
Could the Wikiversity project please clarify this?
Amgine
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On 15-Aug-06, at 12:24 PM, Craig Spurrier wrote:
I would assume that they were referring to moving the content in the Wikiversity namespace (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity). There is plenty of content that is not appropriate for Wikibooks in this namespace. AFAIK no one wants to delete actual textbooks from Wikibooks.
Thanks for clarifying that. I note, however, that this is not what was said in IRC. Specifically, the discussion was about textbooks on Wikibooks. It was not about project pages, or the Wikiversity namespace.
Amgine
On 8/15/06, Amgine amgine@saewyc.net wrote:
On 15-Aug-06, at 12:24 PM, Craig Spurrier wrote:
I would assume that they were referring to moving the content in the Wikiversity namespace (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity). There is plenty of content that is not appropriate for Wikibooks in this namespace. AFAIK no one wants to delete actual textbooks from Wikibooks.
Thanks for clarifying that. I note, however, that this is not what was said in IRC. Specifically, the discussion was about textbooks on Wikibooks. It was not about project pages, or the Wikiversity namespace.
Amgine
So, what was said on IRC was the following (edited):
[5:26pm] cormaggio: Amgine - wikibooks wikiversity content will be moved (in as much as is possible and least damaging to wikibooks) [5:27pm] Amgine: Why would you move content *from* wikibooks, which is a project where it belongs? [5:29pm] cormaggio: Amgine - that is the idea, yes - to move the content to Wikiversity. If people want to move their content back to wikibooks, to develop textbooks, they are free to do so. We have a Wikibooks admin prepared to help us with this (Robert_Horning) [5:29pm] Amgine: I'm sorry: are you going to be *removing* content from Wikibooks? [5:30pm] Amgine: Just need that clarified. [5:30pm] cormaggio: I thought that was what Robert had in mind, yes. [5:30pm] Amgine: I will be adamantly opposed to removing textbook content from wikibooks. [5:31pm] cormaggio: hmmm, but Wikiversity content is not all textbook oriented [5:33pm] Amgine: Cormaggio: I agree entirely. I would suggest Wikiversity focus primarily on non-textbook items, and support Wikibooks's mission for the actual textbooks. [5:33pm] cormaggio: absolutely Amgine [5:35pm] NotACow: i see no reason to remove textbook content from wikibooks. [5:35pm] cormaggio: NotACow - no, we will not be moving textbook content
So, maybe I was misinterpreted, but what I meant was that much of Wikibooks:Wikiversity content would be moved to Wikiversity. This would be done providing it was *not* textbook content.
Cormac
Craig Spurrier wrote:
I would assume that they were referring to moving the content in the Wikiversity namespace (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity). There is plenty of content that is not appropriate for Wikibooks in this namespace. AFAIK no one wants to delete actual textbooks from Wikibooks.
The note on Wikibook's Wikiversity page states: "Material not in the "Wikiversity:" namespace should not be deleted off this server unless it has undergone an official transwiki AND it has been confirmed by Wikibookians that it does not meet Wikibooks' inclusion criteria."
I believe this notice accurately reflects the views of the Wikibooks community.
Craig
One admin on Wikibooks actually put a speedy delete on the Wikiversity pages a few weeks ago, which was the reason for this notice. I don't know the motivation behind that, but I think it is more people just trying to be anxious about moving stuff around and not knowing quite how it was going to be accomplished.
You'd think that Wikiversity would be tested on Incubator...
On 8/15/06, Robert Scott Horning robert_horning@netzero.net wrote:
Craig Spurrier wrote:
I would assume that they were referring to moving the content in the Wikiversity namespace (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikiversity). There is plenty of content that is not appropriate for Wikibooks in this namespace. AFAIK no one wants to delete actual textbooks from Wikibooks.
The note on Wikibook's Wikiversity page states: "Material not in the "Wikiversity:" namespace should not be deleted off this server unless it has undergone an official transwiki AND it has been confirmed by Wikibookians that it does not meet Wikibooks' inclusion criteria."
I believe this notice accurately reflects the views of the Wikibooks community.
Craig
One admin on Wikibooks actually put a speedy delete on the Wikiversity pages a few weeks ago, which was the reason for this notice. I don't know the motivation behind that, but I think it is more people just trying to be anxious about moving stuff around and not knowing quite how it was going to be accomplished.
-- Robert Scott Horning
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
James Hare wrote:
You'd think that Wikiversity would be tested on Incubator...
The incubator was set up because of Wikiversity (and other similar issues). It was the spark that was one of the things that helped create the idea of an incubator, as it was "incubated" on Wikibooks instead.
Robert Scott Horning wrote:
James Hare wrote:
You'd think that Wikiversity would be tested on Incubator...
The incubator was set up because of Wikiversity (and other similar issues). It was the spark that was one of the things that helped create the idea of an incubator, as it was "incubated" on Wikibooks instead.
The incubator was set up to keep the "test Wikipedias" in various languages from cluttering up meta. No particular relation to Wikiversity.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Brion Vibber wrote:
Robert Scott Horning wrote:
James Hare wrote:
You'd think that Wikiversity would be tested on Incubator...
The incubator was set up because of Wikiversity (and other similar issues). It was the spark that was one of the things that helped create the idea of an incubator, as it was "incubated" on Wikibooks instead.
The incubator was set up to keep the "test Wikipedias" in various languages from cluttering up meta. No particular relation to Wikiversity.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
While that may have been your personal justification for making it, the idea of an incubator project for developing proposed Wikimedia projects like Wikiversity has been kicking around Meta for more than a year, and discussion even made it into board meetings as recorded on the minutes. Indeed a problem still exists where because of the way that the incubator wiki was set up, that the idea of hosting anything other than wikipedia tests still is brought into question, and there is yet to be a serious project that has used the incubator as a test project besides these test wikipedias.
See Wikikernel, Wikilabs, and Seedwiki on Meta for more details.
Amgine wrote:
A comment in IRC yesterday raised a concern for me which I would like to see addressed.
Cormac mentioned that he and Mr Horning had discussed moving textbooks and curricula from en.Wikibooks to en.Wikiversity. He was unsure if this meant the textbooks would be deleted from en.Wikibooks, but he was sure any contributors who preferred working on en.Wikibooks would be able to copy them back to that project.
This seems extremely odd to me, that deleting a textbook from Wikibooks would even be contemplated. Educational materials are, after all, the mission of the project. And dividing a textbook between projects seems to be forking, both of the book in question and the potential contributors as well, again something which should not even be contemplated in my opinion.
Could the Wikiversity project please clarify this?
Amgine
We are not talking about moving the textbooks from Wikibooks, but rather just about everything that is in the "Wikiversity" psuedonamespace on Wikibooks, and some of the content on Wikibooks that is more for organization and teaching of Wikiversity courses that is not strictly a textbook, per se. We are not in any way trying to fork Wikibooks in this respect, but rather trying to make a distinction between the two projects.
Much of this is likely to be dealt with in the VfD pages of Wikibooks, as Wikibooks admins try to come to a grip with what Wikiversity content is successfully moved to the new Wikiversity site and what is to be left behind. And as with much of Wikibooks content that has been added over the years, there is some that has been added and will be added that really does need to be on other projects and will be done through a normal transwiki. Wikiversity content will be no different in this context.
I guess in this regard, this is essentially as if the VfD for Wikiversity is finally successful, but the transwiki is finally taking place today. It will take some time to deal with the fine details, however.
Robert Scott Horning wrote:
Amgine wrote:
A comment in IRC yesterday raised a concern for me which I would like to see addressed.
Cormac mentioned that he and Mr Horning had discussed moving textbooks and curricula from en.Wikibooks to en.Wikiversity. He was unsure if this meant the textbooks would be deleted from en.Wikibooks, but he was sure any contributors who preferred working on en.Wikibooks would be able to copy them back to that project.
This seems extremely odd to me, that deleting a textbook from Wikibooks would even be contemplated. Educational materials are, after all, the mission of the project. And dividing a textbook between projects seems to be forking, both of the book in question and the potential contributors as well, again something which should not even be contemplated in my opinion.
Could the Wikiversity project please clarify this?
Amgine
We are not talking about moving the textbooks from Wikibooks, but rather just about everything that is in the "Wikiversity" psuedonamespace on Wikibooks, and some of the content on Wikibooks that is more for organization and teaching of Wikiversity courses that is not strictly a textbook, per se. We are not in any way trying to fork Wikibooks in this respect, but rather trying to make a distinction between the two projects.
Much of this is likely to be dealt with in the VfD pages of Wikibooks, as Wikibooks admins try to come to a grip with what Wikiversity content is successfully moved to the new Wikiversity site and what is to be left behind. And as with much of Wikibooks content that has been added over the years, there is some that has been added and will be added that really does need to be on other projects and will be done through a normal transwiki. Wikiversity content will be no different in this context.
I guess in this regard, this is essentially as if the VfD for Wikiversity is finally successful, but the transwiki is finally taking place today. It will take some time to deal with the fine details, however.
I can't see why people are in such a hurry to dump this stuff onto Wikiversity. Wikibooks has rightly complained before when Wikipedia editors dumped material on Wikibooks just to get rid of it. It would probably be advisable to at least wait until Wikiversity is out of Beta before doing this. The Wikiversity community still needs to build its core before having to devote a lot of time coping with data dumps.
Ec
Amgine wrote:
A comment in IRC yesterday raised a concern for me which I would like to see addressed.
Cormac mentioned that he and Mr Horning had discussed moving textbooks and curricula from en.Wikibooks to en.Wikiversity. He was unsure if this meant the textbooks would be deleted from en.Wikibooks, but he was sure any contributors who preferred working on en.Wikibooks would be able to copy them back to that project.
This seems extremely odd to me, that deleting a textbook from Wikibooks would even be contemplated. Educational materials are, after all, the mission of the project. And dividing a textbook between projects seems to be forking, both of the book in question and the potential contributors as well, again something which should not even be contemplated in my opinion.
Could the Wikiversity project please clarify this?
Amgine is correct.
The point of reference in the future should be this one : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikiversity/Modified_project_proposal
This proposal was the one which was approved for the creation of Wikiversity. This proposal makes it clear that both projects should try their best to cohabit in peace. Wikiversity should not become the new host provider of wikibooks content, but aim at building a collection of references for one topic.
For example : textbook, lesson plans, lecture notes, presentation slides, memory flash cards, listening exercises, educational video etc...
This does not mean that all these materials will be hosted on Wikiversity. Some may but other material may be found at wikipedia, or wikibooks and wikisource etc... For each topic, Wikiversity will be the central place where someone may find the material available for a topic. If the material is on Wikibooks, then Wikiversity should only link to the Wikibooks content.
If Wikiversity wishes to double host the content, fine (though it seems unecessary), but it is excluded that Wikibooks should lose its content because of Wikiversity activity.
This is within that spirit that the special project committee recommanded the creation of Wikiversity project.
Anthere
Amgine
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
That's what I was thinking: Wikiversity hosts the lesson plans, and the lesson plans are based on books (courtesy of Wikibooks).
On 8/15/06, Anthere Anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
Amgine wrote:
A comment in IRC yesterday raised a concern for me which I would like to see addressed.
Cormac mentioned that he and Mr Horning had discussed moving textbooks and curricula from en.Wikibooks to en.Wikiversity. He was unsure if this meant the textbooks would be deleted from en.Wikibooks, but he was sure any contributors who preferred working on en.Wikibooks would be able to copy them back to that project.
This seems extremely odd to me, that deleting a textbook from Wikibooks would even be contemplated. Educational materials are, after all, the mission of the project. And dividing a textbook between projects seems to be forking, both of the book in question and the potential contributors as well, again something which should not even be contemplated in my opinion.
Could the Wikiversity project please clarify this?
Amgine is correct.
The point of reference in the future should be this one : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikiversity/Modified_project_proposal
This proposal was the one which was approved for the creation of Wikiversity. This proposal makes it clear that both projects should try their best to cohabit in peace. Wikiversity should not become the new host provider of wikibooks content, but aim at building a collection of references for one topic.
For example : textbook, lesson plans, lecture notes, presentation slides, memory flash cards, listening exercises, educational video etc...
This does not mean that all these materials will be hosted on Wikiversity. Some may but other material may be found at wikipedia, or wikibooks and wikisource etc... For each topic, Wikiversity will be the central place where someone may find the material available for a topic. If the material is on Wikibooks, then Wikiversity should only link to the Wikibooks content.
If Wikiversity wishes to double host the content, fine (though it seems unecessary), but it is excluded that Wikibooks should lose its content because of Wikiversity activity.
This is within that spirit that the special project committee recommanded the creation of Wikiversity project.
Anthere
Amgine
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On 15-Aug-06, at 5:27 PM, James Hare wrote:
That's what I was thinking: Wikiversity hosts the lesson plans, and the lesson plans are based on books (courtesy of Wikibooks).
Lesson plans, multi-media content, workbooks, experiment suggestions, even art materials are all a part of modern textbooks. Usually these are a companion cd/dvd, or sold as "Teacher's book" or "Curriculum kit" by the publisher. Unless Wikibooks has defined itself exclusively as the dead-tree only textbook project, I can't imagine why these would not be hosted Wikibooks.
Amgine
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org