Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

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Romaine Wiki

18 Aug 2015 18 Aug '15

6:42 p.m.

Hi all, Sad news. The title of this thread seems a bit hard, but that is practically the situation as it looks now. *Background* Wiki Loves Monuments is the yearly photo contest since 2010, organised by many local Wikipedia communities and local chapters. For this contest a banner is shown on top of Wikipedia pages in the specific countries to attract attention from the public to participate in enriching Wikipedia with photos of the local cultural heritage. Wiki Loves Monuments depends for at least 99% on the banner. When there is no banner, the uploads and results drop dramatically, as possible participants are not informed and can't easily find the contest site. Also participants need time to go on location to take photos and see the banner above Wikipedia afterwards to find their way back. *What is the situation?* * The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy during the month September. * The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the contest in Italy and needs a banner as well. As there can be shown only one banner at the time, there have been talks about these conflicting banners. Result: Wiki Loves Monuments get only 37,5% of the time, the fundraising banner 62,5% of the time. Now you maybe think that 37,5% of the time is still large, but the appearances are deceptive because of the different ways the banner is used, and because the differences in numbers of upload throughout the month September. Also the banner is not shown at all during two full weeks, important weeks to attract participants. In the end I estimate, based on the usage and issues of previous years, etc, that only 10-15% of the uploads are made in comparison what normally would have been expected. This is what I would call a devastating effect. And this is purely because of bad planning at WMF: * They haven't checked which countries participated continuously the past years. * They haven't informed which countries are likely to participate. * And they say they can't move the fundraising banner to another month, but it is still a mystery why that isn't possible. This same issue was originally the case in two countries, but somehow it was possible to move it for the second country. This is really sad for Italy. Extra sad because of the difficult copyright situation in Italy, what requires the local team already to do much much much more work than in most other countries, just to have a normal contest. The Italian team does a great job this year. *My conclusion* The community is working very hard on improving and expanding the content of Wikipedia by organising Wiki Loves Monuments. I always thought that this was the number one priority of the whole Wikimedia movement. Did I made a wrong assumption somehow? But when it actually matters, the community project bears the bunt. This is sad, very sad. Please all, support the Italian team, they do a great job and deserve a successful contest. Greetings, Romaine PS: I am one of the international organisers of Wiki Loves Monuments this year, but this e-mail is written on my personal account only.

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attolippip

18 Aug 18 Aug

6:50 p.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Sad news indeed. Is there a public discussion about this issue anywhere? Can we get the WMF comments about it publicly? Best regards, antanana ED of Wikimedia Ukraine 2015-08-18 21:42 GMT+03:00 Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki(a)gmail.com>om>:

...

Romaine Wiki

6:59 p.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Hi Antanana, And I forgot to mention, this same issue existed in 2014 as well, with also there the downside effects. This subject is of banners has been discussed internally with the local Wiki Loves Monuments team, after I tried to gave some insights in the matter. I think this is done so because me and others have always thought and assumed that it is possible to find a solution with understanding of both sides. With these outcomes I think I can safely say that that assumption and thought can't be considered realistic. I think it would be better in future to have the community decide somehow how they perceive this matter. After all, they create the content of Wikipedia and bear the bunt as result of it. Romaine 2015-08-18 20:50 GMT+02:00 attolippip <attolippip(a)gmail.com>om>:

...

_______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org

Nathan

7:18 p.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Sam Klein

19 Aug 19 Aug

1:26 p.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

There's a more general problem here we should fix: We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off dramatically after the first few views. So there's rarely a reason to run a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to run. We should improve the effectiveness of all banners by showing them conservatively. If most pageloads are completely banner free, banners will likely have a greater impact when they are shown. And we should be able to measure this: tracking how effective each % of visibility is at getting clickthroughs for each banner. Making that sort of data immediately visible to everyone who designs banners would be a great step forward. Are WLM projects doing A/B testing of banner messages? Do you have access to A/B test frameworks and results? SJ On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Nathan <nawrich(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Antanana, And I forgot to mention, this same issue existed in 2014 as well, with

also

there the downside effects. This subject is of banners has been discussed internally with the local Wiki Loves Monuments team, after I tried to gave some insights in the matter. I think this is done so because me and others have always thought and assumed that it is possible to find a solution with understanding of both sides. With these outcomes I think I can safely say that that assumption and thought can't be considered realistic. I think it would be better in future to have the community decide somehow how they perceive this matter. After all, they create the content of Wikipedia and bear the bunt as result of it. Romaine

It seems like there are other communication channels you could take advantage of - other types of banners, bot-distributed talk page messages, WMF-assisted mass e-mail campaigns, social networking messages (FB, Twitter, etc.) and so on. Is it really true that having to share banners with fundraising will result in an unavoidable loss of 90% of contributors? _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

-- Samuel Klein @metasj w:user:sj +1 617 529 4266

Andrew Gray

4:02 p.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <sjklein(a)hcs.harvard.edu> wrote:

...

I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like WLM - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles. The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see it, and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So the banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide "I'll sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*, well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for it. However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do something, and come back again to tell us about it". The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and go off to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to upload their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they won't really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill. I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on fundraising. Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some ways provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to return to make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and visible in some way when they come back. Andrew. -- - Andrew Gray andrew.gray(a)dunelm.org.uk

Andrea Zanni

6:45 p.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's very easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the top". It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest (in Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's English). And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody knows homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot count the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page). Aubrey On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <andrew.gray(a)dunelm.org.uk> wrote:

...

On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <sjklein(a)hcs.harvard.edu> wrote:

There's a more general problem here we should fix: We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off dramatically after the first few views. So there's rarely a reason to

run

a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to run.

Romaine Wiki

20 Aug 20 Aug

5:19 a.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of organising every Wiki Loves Monuments. The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group of Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for showing content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in this field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the majority of the people. Romaine 2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <zanni.andrea84(a)gmail.com>om>:

...

On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <sjklein(a)hcs.harvard.edu> wrote:

There's a more general problem here we should fix: We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off dramatically after the first few views. So there's rarely a reason to

run

a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to run.

_______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Risker

5:26 a.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing here, but I also see Fundraising's point. I wonder if there are not some other options that could be considered. For example, instead of a banner, perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says "Upload images for Wiki Loves Monuments here!" may be technically feasible. It's not quite the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at least. (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the WLM banners in rotation.) Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here; both of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during that specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing list. I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups. Risker/Anne On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's

very

easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the top". It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest (in Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's English). And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody knows homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot

count

the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page). Aubrey On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <andrew.gray(a)dunelm.org.uk> wrote: > On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <sjklein(a)hcs.harvard.edu> wrote: > > There's a more general problem here we should fix: > > > > We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off > > dramatically after the first few views. So there's rarely a reason

> run > > a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to

run.

Romaine Wiki

5:38 a.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Hi! I think one point is skipped, before this should be discussed at all: why is it not possible to move a banner to another month? This question needs an answer first. Each time this problem occurs, multiple years now in different occasions, the fundraising team says they can't move the banner, but they have never provided any reasonable explanation for that at all. Because of the fundraising banner, this community project and the content of both Wikipedia and Commons experience a huge loss. What makes the loss is worth it for the movement? That is the core question that needs an answer first in my opinion. Romaine 2015-08-20 7:26 GMT+02:00 Risker <risker.wp(a)gmail.com>om>:

...

this

field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the majority of the people. Romaine 2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <zanni.andrea84(a)gmail.com>om>:

I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's

very > easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the

top".

> It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest

(in

> Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's English). > > And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody

knows

homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot

count > the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page). > > Aubrey > > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <

andrew.gray(a)dunelm.org.uk>

> wrote: > > > On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <sjklein(a)hcs.harvard.edu>

wrote:

> > There's a more general problem here we should fix: > > > > We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off > > dramatically after the first few views. So there's rarely a reason

> run > > a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to

run. > > > > I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience > > to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like

WLM

> > - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles. > > > > The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see

it,

> > and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you > > probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while > > if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So

the

> > banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively > > less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are > > relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide "I'll > > sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*, > > well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for > > it. > > > > However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do something, > > and come back again to tell us about it". > > > > The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved > > person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and go

off

> > to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do > > it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to

upload

> > their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they

won't

> > really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki > > something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they > > probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on > > the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not > > involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the > > information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM > > easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to > > action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most > > importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill. > > > > I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to > > generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on fundraising. > > Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing > > clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some ways > > provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to return

> > make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for > > fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and > > visible in some way when they come back. > > > > Andrew. > > > > -- > > - Andrew Gray > > andrew.gray(a)dunelm.org.uk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe:

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Ricordisamoa

5:41 a.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Any reasons the WLM 'banner' can't become a Main Page panel like the ones on Commons? Il 20/08/2015 07:26, Risker ha scritto:

...

I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's

very

count

the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page). Aubrey On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <andrew.gray(a)dunelm.org.uk> wrote: > On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <sjklein(a)hcs.harvard.edu> wrote: >> There's a more general problem here we should fix: >> >> We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off >> dramatically after the first few views. So there's rarely a reason

> run >> a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to

run.

Romaine Wiki

5:48 a.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

If a local community wants this, they can create such of course. But I think most visitors from Wikipedia do not visit the Main Page. 2015-08-20 7:41 GMT+02:00 Ricordisamoa <ricordisamoa(a)openmailbox.org>rg>:

...

Any reasons the WLM 'banner' can't become a Main Page panel like the ones on Commons? Il 20/08/2015 07:26, Risker ha scritto:

organising every Wiki Loves Monuments. The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group of Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for showing content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in this field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the majority of the people. Romaine 2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <zanni.andrea84(a)gmail.com>om>: I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's

very > easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the top". > It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest (in > Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's English).

> And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody knows > homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot

count > the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page).

> Aubrey

> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <andrew.gray(a)dunelm.org.uk >

> wrote:

> On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <sjklein(a)hcs.harvard.edu> wrote: >

>>> There's a more general problem here we should fix: >>

>>> We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off >>> dramatically after the first few views. So there's rarely a reason >>

>> to > run >

>>> a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to >>

>> run. > I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience >> to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like WLM >> - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles. >

>> The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see it, >> and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you >> probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while >> if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So the >> banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively >> less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are >> relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide "I'll >> sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*, >> well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for >> it. >

>> However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do something, >> and come back again to tell us about it". >

>> The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved >> person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and go off >> to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do >> it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to upload >> their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they won't >> really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki >> something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they >> probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on >> the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not >> involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the >> information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM >> easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to >> action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most >> importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill. >

>> I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to >> generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on fundraising. >> Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing >> clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some ways >> provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to return to >> make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for >> fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and >> visible in some way when they come back. >

>> Andrew. >

>> -- >> - Andrew Gray >> andrew.gray(a)dunelm.org.uk >

>> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >> Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe

>> _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe

> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe

_______________________________________________

Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

John Mark Vandenberg

6:48 a.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Would it be possible for the WLM banner to show on the Main Page only during 8-22 September, with the fundraising banner on every other page? -- John Vandenberg

Steinsplitter Wiki

11:35 a.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Why wmf needs to put a fundraising banner every year on wp. Isn't there enough money in Frisco? Just wondering :)

...

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 16:48:02 +1000 From: jayvdb(a)gmail.com To: wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising Would it be possible for the WLM banner to show on the Main Page only during 8-22 September, with the fundraising banner on every other page? -- John Vandenberg _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

MF-Warburg

11:26 a.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Which is Fundraising's point? I haven't seen anything here about why WMF so urgently needs to request Italian donations in September. Am 20.08.2015 07:27 schrieb "Risker" <risker.wp(a)gmail.com>om>:

...

this

field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the majority of the people. Romaine 2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <zanni.andrea84(a)gmail.com>om>:

I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's

very > easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the

top".

> It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest

(in

> Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's English). > > And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody

knows

homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot

count > the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page). > > Aubrey > > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <

andrew.gray(a)dunelm.org.uk>

> wrote: > > > On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <sjklein(a)hcs.harvard.edu>

wrote:

> > There's a more general problem here we should fix: > > > > We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off > > dramatically after the first few views. So there's rarely a reason

> run > > a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to

run. > > > > I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience > > to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like

WLM

> > - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles. > > > > The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see

it,

the

off

> > to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do > > it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to

upload

> > their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they

won't

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Romaine Wiki

12:20 p.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

This is not the first time this conflict appears, but this is the worst outcome ever so far. In all the years I have been asking for an explanation why it is not possible to move it, or why it is urgently to do it in September, nothing reasonable has been provided for that. Nothing in all those years. If a fundraising banner has a big negative influence on a project, I think it is time to have the community involved and have them speak out what they think about the situation. As FR only speaks to a few people, they seem to have the impression that they can freely decide without taking the community in account. I think it will be time to have the community speak out what they think in a request for comment/voting or something on Meta. Anyone an idea or the experience how to set such up? Romaine 2015-08-20 13:26 GMT+02:00 MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com>om>:

...

Which is Fundraising's point? I haven't seen anything here about why WMF so urgently needs to request Italian donations in September. Am 20.08.2015 07:27 schrieb "Risker" <risker.wp(a)gmail.com>om>:

I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing

here,

but I also see Fundraising's point. I wonder if there are not some other options that could be considered. For example, instead of a banner, perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says "Upload images for Wiki Loves Monuments here!" may be technically feasible. It's not quite the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at least. (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the

WLM

banners in rotation.) Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here; both of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during that specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing

list.

I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups. Risker/Anne On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of > organising every Wiki Loves Monuments. > > The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group

> Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for

showing

content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in

this

field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the majority of the people. Romaine 2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <zanni.andrea84(a)gmail.com>om>:

I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's

very > easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the

top".

> It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest

(in > > Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's

English).

> > And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody

knows > > homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot > count > > the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing

page).

> > Aubrey > > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <

andrew.gray(a)dunelm.org.uk>

> wrote: > > > On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <sjklein(a)hcs.harvard.edu>

wrote: > > > > There's a more general problem here we should fix: > > > > > > > > We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off > > > > dramatically after the first few views. So there's rarely a

reason

> to > > > run > > > > a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners

> run. > > > > > > I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising

experience

> > to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like

WLM

> > - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles. > > > > The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see

it, > > > and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate,

you

> > > probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either;

while

> > if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So

the > > > banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has

progressively

> > > less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are > > > relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide "I'll > > > sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*, > > > well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking

for

> > > it. > > > > > > However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do

something,

> > and come back again to tell us about it". > > > > The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved > > person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and go

off > > > to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can

> > it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to

upload

> > their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they

won't > > > really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki > > > something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they > > > probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else

> > > the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not > > > involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the > > > information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM > > > easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to > > > action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most > > > importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill. > > > > > > I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard

> > > generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on

fundraising.

> > > Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing > > > clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some

ways

> > provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to return

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org

?subject=unsubscribe>

> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe:

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Lisa Gruwell

21 Aug 21 Aug

7:23 p.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

I know the Italian Chapter, the online fundraising team, and community liaisons have been talking about solutions for a while and I won’t get in the way of that, but I thought I would offer a few ideas on some of the online organizing tactics being discussed here. This probably falls in the category of unsolicited advice and it might be bad advice at that. To quote a good song, “It’s bad advice only if you use it.” On the topic of limiting impressions, I agree that the fundraising use case is different than WLM organizing. I am still fairly sure that there has to something more effective than running a full-time banner for a month. It would take testing a bunch of ideas to figure that out and Central Notice has much more capacity now to test different things. We are happy to help brainstorm ideas for that if anyone wanted. I understand that WLM’s has a common organizing challenge in that it’s a couple step process for participation. Would it make sense to prioritize a “Sign up” or “Enter the Contest” feature on the landing pages that asks people to submit their email addresses, so that you can followup with them? I mention this because online fundraising has experimented with a “Remind me later” feature on mobile where we have people enter their email addresses, so that we can send them a followup fundraising email. It has had some good results. It seems like having email addresses for followup would help keep people engaged in WLM and you could also reach out to them next year. Lastly, we could add an appeal to participate in WLM to the thank you email we send to donors in Italy. We would be happy to do it, if it’s useful. Best regards, Lisa On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 5:20 AM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Which is Fundraising's point? I haven't seen anything here about why WMF

urgently needs to request Italian donations in September. Am 20.08.2015 07:27 schrieb "Risker" <risker.wp(a)gmail.com>om>:

I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing

here, > but I also see Fundraising's point. I wonder if there are not some

other

> options that could be considered. For example, instead of a banner, > perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says "Upload images for > Wiki Loves Monuments here!" may be technically feasible. It's not

quite

the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at least. (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the

WLM > banners in rotation.) > > Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here;

both

> of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of > them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during

that

specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing

list. > I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to > come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups. > > Risker/Anne > > On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki(a)gmail.com>

wrote:

> > > Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of > > organising every Wiki Loves Monuments. > > > > The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole

group

> Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for

showing > > content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in > this > > field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for

the

> > majority of the people. > > > > Romaine > > > > 2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <zanni.andrea84(a)gmail.com>om>: > > > > > I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and

it's

> > very > > > easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the > top". > > > It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the

contest

(in > > Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's

English). > > > > > > And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody > knows > > > homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we

cannot

> count > > the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing

page). > > > > > > Aubrey > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray < > andrew.gray(a)dunelm.org.uk> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <sjklein(a)hcs.harvard.edu> > wrote: > > > > > There's a more general problem here we should fix: > > > > > > > > > > We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops

off

> > > > dramatically after the first few views. So there's rarely a

reason

> to > > > run > > > > a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners

> run. > > > > > > I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising

experience > > > > to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners

> WLM > > > > - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles. > > > > > > > > The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You

see

it, > > > and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate,

you

> > > probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either;

while > > > > if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again.

the > > > banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has

progressively > > > > less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are > > > > relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide

"I'll

> > > > sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they

*do*,

> > > well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking

for

> > > it. > > > > > > However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do

something, > > > > and come back again to tell us about it". > > > > > > > > The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved > > > > person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and

off > > > to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can

> > it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to

upload

> > their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they

on > > > > the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not > > > > involved in the projects already they probably won't know where

the

> > > > information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find

WLM

> > > easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to > > > action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most > > > importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill. > > > > > > I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard

> > > generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on

fundraising.

> > > Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing > > > clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some

ways > > > > provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to

return

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org

?subject=unsubscribe>

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org

?subject=unsubscribe>

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Laurentius

8:10 p.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Il giorno gio, 20/08/2015 alle 01.26 -0400, Risker ha scritto:

...

[...] perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says "Upload images for Wiki Loves Monuments here!" may be technically feasible.

This might be a way to mitigate the problem, although I'm not sure whether it's technically feasible. Il giorno gio, 20/08/2015 alle 07.41 +0200, Ricordisamoa ha scritto:

...

Any reasons the WLM 'banner' can't become a Main Page panel like the ones on Commons?

This could be another one. Il giorno mar, 18/08/2015 alle 23.39 +0200, Ilario Valdelli ha scritto:

...

Yes it can be possible without touching the fundraising's banner. The banner can be put in the Mediawiki:sitenotice in each project and can cohabitate with the fundraising's banner. The real problem is that a small banner can have only a limited effect.

And this one too (although I'm not a fan of this). None of these will solve the problem, but I think they are worth of consideration for it.wikipedia's community. Lorenzo

Michael Peel

8:22 p.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Risker

8:42 p.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Given the huge amount of work, the liability and legislative issues and problems with transferring funds across international borders, I'm not persuaded; having dozens of paid fundraising teams is not cost-effective by any stretch of the imagination. The process was stopped because it was costing more money to raise funds that way, and as a movement it's very, very difficult to justify the international level of fundraising in a way that results in much higher costs. Having said that, the Wikimedia movement calendar is becoming increasingly complex. It is inevitable that there are going to be conflicts between major local initiatives and major international-level initiatives; these don't always involve fundraising, although they're probably the most common group affected. I think we really need to get better at scheduling events and creating a solid movement-wide calendar that identifies major activities, particularly those that rely significantly on site advertising/banners/messaging for their success. The further in advance a potential conflict is identified, the more likely that good and effective solutions to those conflicts can be put into place. It would be really helpful, for example, if the Fundraising calendar was published a year in advance; chapters and other groups would probably find that really useful in planning major local activities. I this specific case, there's not much time left, and so it is time to look for ways to lessen the impact of the scheduling conflict. Risker/Anne On 21 August 2015 at 16:22, Michael Peel <email(a)mikepeel.net> wrote:

...

From my perspective, this strikes me as part of the reason why national organisations are well suited to running the Wikimedia fundraising campaigns rather than a global organisation: if WMIT was organising both WLM and the national fundraising campaign, then this conflict wouldn't have arisen / could have been resolved locally. Thanks, Mike _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Michael Peel

9 p.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

...

Given the huge amount of work, the liability and legislative issues and problems with transferring funds across international borders, I'm not persuaded;

Hence why I said "part"; this wasn't meant to be a persuasive argument, it was just a comment on this particular issue. The other topics you mention should probably be discussed in a different thread.

...

having dozens of paid fundraising teams is not cost-effective by any stretch of the imagination. The process was stopped because it was costing more money to raise funds that way, and as a movement it's very, very difficult to justify the international level of fundraising in a way that results in much higher costs.

{{citation needed}} please. That's an interesting perspective that I haven't heard before, and I haven't seen any supporting evidence for that argument. But again, that is a different discussion.

...

Having said that, the Wikimedia movement calendar is becoming increasingly complex. It is inevitable that there are going to be conflicts between major local initiatives and major international-level initiatives; these don't always involve fundraising, although they're probably the most common group affected. I think we really need to get better at scheduling events and creating a solid movement-wide calendar that identifies major activities, particularly those that rely significantly on site advertising/banners/messaging for their success. The further in advance a potential conflict is identified, the more likely that good and effective solutions to those conflicts can be put into place. It would be really helpful, for example, if the Fundraising calendar was published a year in advance; chapters and other groups would probably find that really useful in planning major local activities.

That was my point: if we worked on a national rather than international basis as a baseline, then this sort of issue simply wouldn't arise.

...

I this specific case, there's not much time left, and so it is time to look for ways to lessen the impact of the scheduling conflict.

I agree with this. Thanks, Mike

Romaine Wiki

22 Aug 22 Aug

12:05 a.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

If the fundraising banner was planned in November to be shown in Italy, the problem would have been the same. Only the time could have a positive impact. Also then something has been missed: Wiki Loves Monuments is a sticky project in September, already for years, as it is attached to a world wide event of heritage days. The fundraising team should have known that this project is organised and that organising banners for fundraising in September is a big risk. Still this issue keeps coming up. I find it unbelievable that after all these years of organising, WMF FR is still not capable of acting with understanding. I call such bad planning, and naming it such is an understatement. Romaine 2015-08-21 22:42 GMT+02:00 Risker <risker.wp(a)gmail.com>om>:

...

have

arisen / could have been resolved locally. Thanks, Mike _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org <

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Andy Mabbett

23 Aug 23 Aug

12:02 p.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

On 21 August 2015 at 21:42, Risker <risker.wp(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

The process was stopped because it was costing more money to raise funds that way, and as a movement it's very, very difficult to justify the international level of fundraising in a way that results in much higher costs.

I doubt very much that the costs of fund-raising locally in the UK outweighed the massive income from gift aid (refund of tax paid by donors, on their donation). That income is, of course, now lost. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

Romaine Wiki

21 Aug 21 Aug

11:59 p.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

I think you describe the essence of the problem: there is a big gap between the community and the Wikimedia Foundation. I have a long list of problems from the past years that all seem to originate in this basic problem. The Wikimedia Foundation is too much de-attached from the community. At the same time I notice that since last year, Lila is trying to improve this situation, but there is a very very long way to go to move the Wikimedia Foundation away from the dark side of the moon. (To prevent generalisation: I know also a lot of staff in WMF that are closely involved in the community and doing a great job in being attached with the community.) Romaine 2015-08-21 22:22 GMT+02:00 Michael Peel <email(a)mikepeel.net>et>:

...

From my perspective, this strikes me as part of the reason why national organisations are well suited to running the Wikimedia fundraising campaigns rather than a global organisation: if WMIT was organising both WLM and the national fundraising campaign, then this conflict wouldn't have arisen / could have been resolved locally. Thanks, Mike _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Steinsplitter Wiki

22 Aug 22 Aug

2:11 p.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

...

(...) The Wikimedia Foundation is too much de-attached from the community.

This is so true, Romaine! Especially the new staffer who never edited wikipedia before becoming staffer. Of course there is also wmf staff closely involved in the community and doing a great job. It is always a pleasure to do stuff together with them! Really.

...

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 01:59:46 +0200 From: romaine.wiki(a)gmail.com To: wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising I think you describe the essence of the problem: there is a big gap between the community and the Wikimedia Foundation. I have a long list of problems from the past years that all seem to originate in this basic problem. The Wikimedia Foundation is too much de-attached from the community. At the same time I notice that since last year, Lila is trying to improve this situation, but there is a very very long way to go to move the Wikimedia Foundation away from the dark side of the moon. (To prevent generalisation: I know also a lot of staff in WMF that are closely involved in the community and doing a great job in being attached with the community.) Romaine 2015-08-21 22:22 GMT+02:00 Michael Peel <email(a)mikepeel.net>et>:

From my perspective, this strikes me as part of the reason why national organisations are well suited to running the Wikimedia fundraising campaigns rather than a global organisation: if WMIT was organising both WLM and the national fundraising campaign, then this conflict wouldn't have arisen / could have been resolved locally. Thanks, Mike _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Andrew Gray

21 Aug 21 Aug

8:50 p.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

On 20 August 2015 at 06:26, Risker <risker.wp(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

I can see this working, to a degree. I think it would be quite valuable serving the role of wayfinding for a returning contributor looking for it - but I'm not sure it could effectively replace the banner as a first port of call & way to attract attention. Still, nothing ventured! Some projects have restyled the globe logo for special occasions - that might be another approach to consider. -- - Andrew Gray andrew.gray(a)dunelm.org.uk

Craig Franklin

19 Aug 19 Aug

1:32 p.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

It has been my experience that site banners are the best way to reach casual readers who are not already integrated into the projects and existing communication channels. This is why the Fundraising team run banners, rather than begging for money through Facebook and targeted talk page messages, I would imagine. The communications channels you're referring to are excellent for reaching existing contributors, but when you're trying to reach new or casual contributors, a big banner at the top of articles can't be beat. Cheers, Craig On 19 August 2015 at 05:18, Nathan <nawrich(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Antanana, And I forgot to mention, this same issue existed in 2014 as well, with

also

Gergo Tisza

31 Aug 31 Aug

7:36 a.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:32 AM, Craig Franklin <cfranklin(a)halonetwork.net> wrote:

...

My experience has been quite the opposite. The easiest, maybe, but the conversion rate is poor - WLM is for photographers, and putting banners on Wikipedia is not a particularly good way of reaching photographers. In WLM Hungary a few years ago we had a deal with a photo sharing site (a crappy deal, for other reasons), they ran the WLM banner, and it had a ten times higher conversion rate (IIRC we counted people navigating to the upload page as conversions). Even though they had way smaller audience than Wikipedia, half the uploads ended up coming from them. I would recommend organizers to be creative and not rely on CentralNotice too much - reach out to photography discussion groups, photographer associations, photo sharing sites and any other places where people with an interest in taking pictures might turn up.

Pine W

7:43 a.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

It would be interesting to contact DPReview and Flickr to ask if they'd agree to promote this campaign. Pine On Aug 31, 2015 12:36 AM, "Gergo Tisza" <gtisza(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:32 AM, Craig Franklin <cfranklin(a)halonetwork.net

wrote:

top > of articles can't be beat.

Liam Wyatt

18 Aug 18 Aug

8:05 p.m.

New subject: Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

On Tuesday, 18 August 2015, attolippip <attolippip(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Can we get the WMF comments about it publicly? The WMF Fundraising department asked me to submit my own comments and

Peter Southwood

19 Aug 19 Aug

8:32 a.m.

New subject: Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Is there not a method for time to be booked in advance for these things? Like a year in advance, so projects can be planned properly and not crippled at the last minute? Peter -----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Liam Wyatt Sent: Tuesday, 18 August 2015 10:06 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Cc: Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising On Tuesday, 18 August 2015, attolippip <attolippip(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Can we get the WMF comments about it publicly? The WMF Fundraising department asked me to submit my own comments and

feedback from previous years that can be taken into account for the 2015-16 fundraiser at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2015-16_Fundraising_ideas Some of the feedback is "perennial" - we have the same debates every year. But, if that is the page where the Fundraising team have requested comments about the forthcoming fundraiser be placed, then I suggest that people use it. -Liam -- wittylama.com Peace, love & metadata _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6086 / Virus Database: 4392/10462 - Release Date: 08/18/15

Andrea Zanni

9:18 a.m.

New subject: Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

[sorry for cross-posting] Hello everyone. Thanks Romaine for bringing up this issue, because it's good to talk these kind of things together with the whole community. It's a way to improve collaboration, I hope. Yes, this year WLM and FR will split banners in Semptember: we reached an agreement in which * 1-7 September: everyone see a WLM banner * 8-22 September: everyone see a fundraising banner * 23-30 September: the traffic will be split 50/50 between the WLM campaign and the fundraising campaign. (50% of readers will see a fundraising banner and 50% will see the WLM campaign.) We asked also a bigger percentage of visibility during the last 2-3 days of September, as they are very important days in terms of number of photo uploads: we'll see if we manage to find an agreement also there. I'd like to declare that the conversation with the fundraising team have been nothing less than polite and contructive: at the same time, there *is* a "banner conflict", and we will both suffer from this. Last year (WLM 2014) we had the same problem, but in the end FR decided to leave us the banner for the whole September, but the final days. This year the conflict is on the whole month of September, and WLM in Italy will definitely suffer (as it does also in normal conditions ;-). This is a pity because: * FR decided to use September months ago, and they are now in a rush and cannot really change their plans * WMIT decided to run WLM on September months ago as well, as it has done for the past 4 years. WMIT also declared his plans on WLM in the FDC appplication, reviewed in May. Knowing also that last year there was the same issue, it's fair to say, I hope, that from WMIT part there was no lack of communication. I agree with Maarten that, in the end, it's WMF decision the one that counts. This is why we were firm in stating our position but did not put up a fight (or a scene). We manage to reach a more favorable agreement for WLM (we asked for the first and last week of September, as they are in our opinion the most important). What we plan to do now is discussing the issue also with the Funds Dissemination Committee, as it will impact our goals and figures and metrics. Moreover, we do have sponsors in Italy for WLM, and it will not be easy to explain them if numbers drop dramatically. Lorenzo will explain to you what WLM means in terms of organization and management in Italy. Of course, this is the last time this problem has to happen. If the WMF is committed in running the FR banner in September in Italy (it seems it's the most favorable month), WMIT will have to change WLM and run it in October. I don't see other solutions. I hope this mail cleared a bit the situation. Cheers Andrea Zanni Wikimedia Italia On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:32 AM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net> wrote:

...

Is there not a method for time to be booked in advance for these things? Like a year in advance, so projects can be planned properly and not crippled at the last minute? Peter -----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Liam Wyatt Sent: Tuesday, 18 August 2015 10:06 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Cc: Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising On Tuesday, 18 August 2015, attolippip <attolippip(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Can we get the WMF comments about it publicly? The WMF Fundraising department asked me to submit my own comments and

MF-Warburg

9:28 a.m.

New subject: Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Am 19.08.2015 11:19 schrieb "Andrea Zanni" <zanni.andrea84(a)gmail.com>om>:

...

September, as they are very important days in terms of number of photo uploads: we'll see if we manage to find an agreement also there. I'd like to declare that the conversation with the fundraising team have been nothing less than polite and contructive: at the same time, there

*is*

...

a "banner conflict", and we will both suffer from this. Last year (WLM 2014) we had the same problem, but in the end FR decided to leave us the banner for the whole September, but the final days. This year the conflict is on the whole month of September, and WLM in

Italy

...

will definitely suffer (as it does also in normal conditions ;-). This is a pity because: * FR decided to use September months ago, and they are now in a rush and cannot really change their plans

How ridiculous. As if WMF would urgently need this money from Italy and as if it's hard work to change the date when some fundraising banners are shown to October.

...

* WMIT decided to run WLM on September months ago as well, as it has done for the past 4 years. WMIT also declared his plans on WLM in the FDC appplication, reviewed in May. Knowing also that last year there was the same issue, it's fair to say, I hope, that from WMIT part there was no

lack

...

of communication. I agree with Maarten that, in the end, it's WMF decision the one that counts. This is why we were firm in stating our position but did not put up a

fight

...

(or a scene). We manage to reach a more favorable agreement for WLM (we asked for the first and last week of September, as they are in our opinion the most important). What we plan to do now is discussing the issue also with the Funds Dissemination Committee, as it will impact our goals and figures and metrics. Moreover, we do have sponsors in Italy for WLM, and it will not

...

easy to explain them if numbers drop dramatically. Lorenzo will explain to you what WLM means in terms of organization and management in Italy. Of course, this is the last time this problem has to happen. If the WMF is committed in running the FR banner in September in Italy (it seems it's

the

...

most favorable month), WMIT will have to change WLM and run it in October. I don't see other solutions. I hope this mail cleared a bit the situation. Cheers Andrea Zanni Wikimedia Italia On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:32 AM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net> wrote: > Is there not a method for time to be booked in advance for these things? > Like a year in advance, so projects can be planned properly and not > crippled at the last minute? > Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: wikimedia-l-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: > wikimedia-l-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Liam Wyatt > Sent: Tuesday, 18 August 2015 10:06 PM > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Cc: Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked > by WMF fundraising > > On Tuesday, 18 August 2015, attolippip <attolippip(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Can we get the WMF comments about it publicly? > > > > The WMF Fundraising department asked me to submit my own comments and > feedback from previous years that can be taken into account for the > 2015-16 fundraiser at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2015-16_Fundraising_ideas > > Some of the feedback is "perennial" - we have the same debates every

year.

...

> But, if that is the page where the Fundraising team have requested > comments about the forthcoming fundraiser be placed, then I suggest that > people use it. > > -Liam > > > -- > wittylama.com > Peace, love & metadata > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.6086 / Virus Database: 4392/10462 - Release Date:

08/18/15

...

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https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines

...

Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

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Claudia Garád

9:39 a.m.

New subject: [Chapters] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Hi Andrea, thanks for the update. We were in the same situation last year, including all the negative side effects mentioned already. The worst part was to explain our long-standing and important partner the Federal Monuments Office that we can't have the banner time at cruical dates in September (especially the days leading up to our events around the national monuments day in Austria), at a time when all the information material with dates etc. was already printed and distributed. Like you, we decided to come to terms with the situation without causing drama or trouble, but we communicated very clearly and on various channels that we wish for or rather strongly recommend a better planning this year, i.e. an information for the affected countries months and not only weeks or days before the event, so that they they can come up with adequate strategies and plan accordingly. It sounds that - again - this was not the case this year. So, yes indeed - sad news - I really think this could have been avoided to a certain extend. Claudia Am 19.08.2015 um 11:18 schrieb Andrea Zanni:

...

[sorry for cross-posting] Hello everyone. Thanks Romaine for bringing up this issue, because it's good to talk these kind of things together with the whole community. It's a way to improve collaboration, I hope. Yes, this year WLM and FR will split banners in Semptember: we reached an agreement in which * 1-7 September: everyone see a WLM banner * 8-22 September: everyone see a fundraising banner * 23-30 September: the traffic will be split 50/50 between the WLM campaign and the fundraising campaign. (50% of readers will see a fundraising banner and 50% will see the WLM campaign.) * * We asked also a bigger percentage of visibility during the last 2-3 days of September, as they are very important days in terms of number of photo uploads: we'll see if we manage to find an agreement also there. I'd like to declare that the conversation with the fundraising team have been nothing less than polite and contructive: at the same time, there *is* a "banner conflict", and we will both suffer from this. Last year (WLM 2014) we had the same problem, but in the end FR decided to leave us the banner for the whole September, but the final days. This year the conflict is on the whole month of September, and WLM in Italy will definitely suffer (as it does also in normal conditions ;-). This is a pity because: * FR decided to use September months ago, and they are now in a rush and cannot really change their plans * WMIT decided to run WLM on September months ago as well, as it has done for the past 4 years. WMIT also declared his plans on WLM in the FDC appplication, reviewed in May. Knowing also that last year there was the same issue, it's fair to say, I hope, that from WMIT part there was no lack of communication. I agree with Maarten that, in the end, it's WMF decision the one that counts. This is why we were firm in stating our position but did not put up a fight (or a scene). We manage to reach a more favorable agreement for WLM (we asked for the first and last week of September, as they are in our opinion the most important). What we plan to do now is discussing the issue also with the Funds Dissemination Committee, as it will impact our goals and figures and metrics. Moreover, we do have sponsors in Italy for WLM, and it will not be easy to explain them if numbers drop dramatically. Lorenzo will explain to you what WLM means in terms of organization and management in Italy. Of course, this is the last time this problem has to happen. If the WMF is committed in running the FR banner in September in Italy (it seems it's the most favorable month), WMIT will have to change WLM and run it in October. I don't see other solutions. I hope this mail cleared a bit the situation. Cheers Andrea Zanni Wikimedia Italia On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:32 AM, Peter Southwood <peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net <mailto:peter.southwood@telkomsa.net>> wrote: Is there not a method for time to be booked in advance for these things? Like a year in advance, so projects can be planned properly and not crippled at the last minute? Peter -----Original Message----- From: wikimedia-l-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org> [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org>] On Behalf Of Liam Wyatt Sent: Tuesday, 18 August 2015 10:06 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Cc: Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising On Tuesday, 18 August 2015, attolippip <attolippip(a)gmail.com <mailto:attolippip@gmail.com>> wrote:

Can we get the WMF comments about it publicly? The WMF Fundraising department asked me to submit my own

comments and feedback from previous years that can be taken into account for the 2015-16 fundraiser at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/2015-16_Fundraising_ideas Some of the feedback is "perennial" - we have the same debates every year. But, if that is the page where the Fundraising team have requested comments about the forthcoming fundraiser be placed, then I suggest that people use it. -Liam -- wittylama.com <http://wittylama.com> Peace, love & metadata _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines%0AWikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org>?subject=unsubscribe> ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> Version: 2015.0.6086 / Virus Database: 4392/10462 - Release Date: 08/18/15 _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines%0AWikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org>?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Chapters mailing list Chapters(a)wikimedia.ch https://intern.wikimedia.ch/lists/listinfo/chapters

Laurentius

21 Aug 21 Aug

8:09 p.m.

New subject: [Chapters] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Il giorno mer, 19/08/2015 alle 11.39 +0200, Claudia Garád ha scritto:

...

The worst part was to explain our long-standing and important partner the Federal Monuments Office that we can't have the banner time at cruical dates in September (especially the days leading up to our events around the national monuments day in Austria), at a time when all the information material with dates etc. was already printed and distributed.

Yes, this will be an issue for WMI too. And WLM Italy has a lot of partners. Laurentius

Pine W

18 Aug 18 Aug

6:53 p.m.

New subject: Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Hi Lisa, This is kind of confusing. Can you explain why Fundraising can't alter its fundraising schedule for Italy in order to accomodate the WLM annual community activity? Thanks, Pine On Aug 18, 2015 11:42 AM, "Romaine Wiki" <romaine.wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Maarten Dammers

7:17 p.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Hi Romaine, Sad to hear this. I remember running in the same situation a couple of years ago (2013) when a really prominent "new privacy policy" banner was put up for everyone with a high percentage for most of the month [1]. Back than I contacted the people at the WMF responsible for that. I got some very polite replies that can be summed up as "our project is more important than yours". The WMF owns the sites so if they feel like they want to put up banners that conflict with WLM, they can just do that and there is nothing we can do about that (besides complaining on mailing lists). Maarten [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=CentralNotice/Calendar&old… Romaine Wiki schreef op 18-8-2015 om 20:42:

...

Hi all, Sad news. The title of this thread seems a bit hard, but that is practically the situation as it looks now. *Background* Wiki Loves Monuments is the yearly photo contest since 2010, organised by many local Wikipedia communities and local chapters. For this contest a banner is shown on top of Wikipedia pages in the specific countries to attract attention from the public to participate in enriching Wikipedia with photos of the local cultural heritage. Wiki Loves Monuments depends for at least 99% on the banner. When there is no banner, the uploads and results drop dramatically, as possible participants are not informed and can't easily find the contest site. Also participants need time to go on location to take photos and see the banner above Wikipedia afterwards to find their way back. *What is the situation? * * The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy during the month September. * The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the contest in Italy and needs a banner as well. As there can be shown only one banner at the time, there have been talks about these conflicting banners. Result: Wiki Loves Monuments get only 37,5% of the time, the fundraising banner 62,5% of the time. Now you maybe think that 37,5% of the time is still large, but the appearances are deceptive because of the different ways the banner is used, and because the differences in numbers of upload throughout the month September. Also the banner is not shown at all during two full weeks, important weeks to attract participants. In the end I estimate, based on the usage and issues of previous years, etc, that only 10-15% of the uploads are made in comparison what normally would have been expected. This is what I would call a devastating effect. And this is purely because of bad planning at WMF: * They haven't checked which countries participated continuously the past years. * They haven't informed which countries are likely to participate. * And they say they can't move the fundraising banner to another month, but it is still a mystery why that isn't possible. This same issue was originally the case in two countries, but somehow it was possible to move it for the second country. This is really sad for Italy. Extra sad because of the difficult copyright situation in Italy, what requires the local team already to do much much much more work than in most other countries, just to have a normal contest. The Italian team does a great job this year. *My conclusion* The community is working very hard on improving and expanding the content of Wikipedia by organising Wiki Loves Monuments. I always thought that this was the number one priority of the whole Wikimedia movement. Did I made a wrong assumption somehow? But when it actually matters, the community project bears the bunt. This is sad, very sad. Please all, support the Italian team, they do a great job and deserve a successful contest. Greetings, Romaine PS: I am one of the international organisers of Wiki Loves Monuments this year, but this e-mail is written on my personal account only. _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org

Platonides

9:31 p.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Really sad indeed. Specially for a country with such a complicated situation as Italy. Given that they are going to take you banner time, maybe they would be possible to be convinced to include a small "WLM ad" in the donation page? I would expect targetting people that visit the page but doesn't donate, or listing "other ways to help" after donation (a more standard one about editing could be used, too). It won't have the same impact as a banner, but it'd be an interesting approach.

Ilario Valdelli

9:39 p.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

...

Given that they are going to take you banner time, maybe they would be possible to be convinced to include a small "WLM ad" in the donation page?

-- Ilario Valdelli Wikimedia CH Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera Switzerland - 8008 Zürich Tel: +41764821371 http://www.wikimedia.ch

Laurentius

19 Aug 19 Aug

9:23 a.m.

New subject: Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Il giorno mar, 18/08/2015 alle 20.42 +0200, Romaine Wiki ha scritto:

...

[...] This is really sad for Italy. Extra sad because of the difficult copyright situation in Italy, what requires the local team already to do much much much more work than in most other countries, just to have a normal contest. The Italian team does a great job this year.

Since probably most people in wikimedia-l are not aware of this, I'll add some background on the Italian situation an Wiki loves monuments, and why it's actually extra sad for Italy in particular. Wiki loves monuments is a big global project (one of the most successful ever), but in Italy it's a bit peculiar. The basic issue is that in Italy not only we don't have freedom of panorama, but there is actually a law that prohibits to take pictures of monuments, unless you get a specific authorization (and of course there is no list of Italian monuments and no simple way to know who is responsible for a specific monument). Since we are not people easy to stop, four years ago we decided to start asking for authorizations: we wrote to thousands of municipalities and other institutions. But every cloud has a silver lining, and we turned this problem into an occasion to build relationships. For this year's edition, we secured authorizations from 200 municipalities and 100 other institutions (so far); and with part of them we are organizing events (~40) during September. This is a huge work: apart from the many volunteers involved, we have a full time employee for WLM (Cristian Cenci) but actually also the rest of our staff is dedicating a lot of time to this (summing up, 1,5-2 FTEs as a yearly average). In particular, the budget of WLM in Italy is probably higher than in any other country (not because we waste money, but because of higher stakes). Clearly having specific authorizations is not the ideal solution, so we are actually advocating for a change in the law. Apart from taking part in the European effort on copyright (the FKAGEU), we are are trying to make the Italian politicians understand the issue (among other things, we have recently had an event in the Italian parliament). In short, this means that WLM in Italy is planned long ahead, we have hundreds of institutional partner, and it is central to our strategy. Lorenzo

Chris Keating

9:44 a.m.

New subject: Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

I can definitely understand your frustration, Romaine. However, if there is a strong operational reason why the Fundraising team can't move the activity they have planned for Italy in September, then I can't really see what resolution there can be except for sharing the banner space. Normally though one would expect repeated banner impressions to have diminishing returns, rather than increasing returns - so I would expect the impact on Wiki Loves Monuments to be a fair bit less than what you make out. One thing I don't understand though - I thought fundraising banners were set to display ~once per person these days, rather than actually site-wide as they used to - is it not possible to have the (less intrusive) WLM banner displaying for the people who aren't getting the fundraising messages? Thanks, Chris On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Ziko van Dijk

9:55 a.m.

New subject: Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

An excellent idea, Chris. I am curious what are the exact reasons for having the fundraising banner in September. We were always told that December is the best month. It is no secret that many (and which) chapters run the WLM event in September. Maybe the FR team can explain about that, so that we have the bigger picture. Kind regards Ziko Am Mittwoch, 19. August 2015 schrieb Chris Keating :

...

no banner, the uploads and results drop dramatically, as possible participants are not informed and can't easily find the contest site.

Also

participants need time to go on location to take photos and see the

banner

above Wikipedia afterwards to find their way back. *What is the situation?* * The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy during the month September. * The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the

contest

in Italy and needs a banner as well. As there can be shown only one banner at the time, there have been talks about these conflicting banners. Result: Wiki Loves Monuments get only 37,5% of the time, the fundraising banner 62,5% of the time. Now you maybe think that 37,5% of the time is still large, but the appearances are deceptive because of the different ways the banner is

used,

and because the differences in numbers of upload throughout the month September. Also the banner is not shown at all during two full weeks, important weeks to attract participants. In the end I estimate, based on the usage and issues of previous years, etc, that only 10-15% of the uploads are made in comparison what normally would have been expected. This is what I would call a devastating effect. And this is purely because of bad planning at WMF: * They haven't checked which countries participated continuously the past years. * They haven't informed which countries are likely to participate. * And they say they can't move the fundraising banner to another month,

but

it is still a mystery why that isn't possible. This same issue was originally the case in two countries, but somehow it was possible to move it for the second country. This is really sad for Italy. Extra sad because of the difficult

situation in Italy, what requires the local team already to do much much much more work than in most other countries, just to have a normal

contest.

The Italian team does a great job this year. *My conclusion* The community is working very hard on improving and expanding the content of Wikipedia by organising Wiki Loves Monuments. I always thought that

this

was the number one priority of the whole Wikimedia movement. Did I made a wrong assumption somehow? But when it actually matters, the community project bears the bunt. This

sad, very sad. Please all, support the Italian team, they do a great job and deserve a successful contest. Greetings, Romaine PS: I am one of the international organisers of Wiki Loves Monuments this year, but this e-mail is written on my personal account only. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org <javascript:;> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org <javascript:;>

?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org <javascript:;> ?subject=unsubscribe>

Luis Villa

22 Aug 22 Aug

6:02 p.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Hi, Romaine- [tl;dr: Fundraising has a hard job. The Board has asked them to raise a lot of money, and fall in Europe is very important to doing that efficiently. We have tried to reach a compromise, but no compromise is perfect. In the long run, we would like to work together to try to figure out a calendar and other alternatives.] Thank you for reaching out, and for working patiently with us to find a solution. Let me explain how I see both the short term and the long term. In the short term, Fundraising has been asked to raise $68 million this year to support the movement (including funding some parts of WLM!). This is going to be extremely difficult, given the decline in pageviews (details <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2015-16&diff=12692813&oldid=12650742>). They also have to coordinate campaigns around the world, with a staff that is small by non-profit fundraising standards. For them to meet their goals, they must be effective in the fall in Europe. This means they must fundraise somewhere in Europe during September. Because of this, disrupting some part of WLM is hard to avoid. :/ This is why we started working with you, Andrea, and others to work out a compromise last month. My understanding is that Fundraising and the Italian chapter have already adjusted their campaign dates as part of the compromise. Fundraising also cooperated with the French chapter to move those dates. No compromise is perfect, but I think we did the best we could under the circumstances. We can continue to make small changes (for example, Lisa offered earlier in this thread to add WLM suggestions in fundraising emails) but the team needs to start working now. In the long term, WMF values Wiki Loves Monuments and the many other projects that use Central Notice. Clearly, we need a better process to help coordinate Central Notice, including WMF projects like fundraising. We would like to work on setting up such a process, but that will require more work on our side. So Lisa and I are talking about how we can trim back on other work to make this happen. We would also love to work with WLM and other programs to figure out better ways to communicate with potential contributors. For example, if we asked potential contributors to give their email (as Italia already does <http://wikilovesmonuments.wikimedia.it/>), we could almost certainly make the process more effective and reduce banners at the same time. Again, though, helping with something like this will require cutting back elsewhere in Fundraising/Community, and so that will take some time to figure out. Hope this helps clarify the situation. Lisa and I are happy to answer more questions if we can. Thanks- Luis On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 11:42 AM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

-- Luis Villa Sr. Director of Community Engagement Wikimedia Foundation *Working towards a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge.*

Romaine Wiki

7:17 p.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Hello Luis, Organising Wiki Loves Monuments is a hard job. For the world wide Wikimedia community Wiki Loves Monuments is the largest and important project. Everywhere around the world cultural heritage can be found, and the community organises Wiki Loves Monuments to have content created in words and images to expand Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons in the field of cultural heritage. This project is important to us. As Wiki Loves Monuments we have tried to collaborate with various people inside WMF concerning the CentralNotice banners I think indeed we have patience as community, but seeing the troubles we experience for three years on a row, each time getting worse and worse, maybe we should loose our patience to get something changed. This is not the first time we complained about this. And now having this for the 3rd year on a row, enough is enough. This can't continue any longer. The community understands fundraising is needed, and we can imagine that fundraising should be done in September as well. But it is indigestible that the fundraising team doesn't take into account that the community has an important project going on in September. This is not the first time Wiki Loves Monuments is organised, it is organised for years. Everyone in the Foundation already could have learned that September is a month they need to pay special attention to if it concerns fundraising banners. And Fundraising is possible in multiple European countries as Wiki Loves Monuments isn't organised there this year. It is the fundraising team who has chosen the worst possible country in Europe. This is called bad planning. And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian WLM team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the Wikimedia Foundation. And again this is not a compromise, besides no banner at all, this outcome is the worst possible outcome for Wiki Loves Monuments. All purely because the fundraising team is bad in planning. If this is called "the best we could", I think it is time to fire some people and start with a team with more capabilities. "We can continue" Sorry, it is not acceptable. Completely unacceptable. "but the team needs to start working now." Then WMF seeks the confrontation with the community. "WMF values Wiki Loves Monuments" WMF is saying this a lot, but when it actually matters it is not shown in the deeds and actions. Just a few examples we have seen: * Mobile support revoked by WMF. * Software updates that cause to completely rebuild the infrastructure, in the last days before the start of the contest. * Various WMF banners that block(ed) Wiki Loves banners. * A WLM evaluation by WMF that rips out the essence of the project, saying that WLM is doing worse, but forgets to mention that a large part is caused by WMF itself. What deeds show that WMF really cares? Have I seen any? And the responses we get a lot from WMF are fairy tales. And no, it doesn't clarify the situation. I think it is for WMF time to answer these questions: 1. When does WMF start with actually caring for community projects, like Wiki Loves Monuments and others, to be shown in deeds and actions? 2. Is WMF going to cancel the fundraising banner in September for Italy when it is too late, or when they are still in time? 3. Why is the question what the loss is worth it for the movement still unanswered? 4. Why is it worth to damage the largest project of the year while the fundraising could be done a month later as well? Romaine 2015-08-22 20:02 GMT+02:00 Luis Villa <lvilla(a)wikimedia.org>rg>:

...

Hi, Romaine- [tl;dr: Fundraising has a hard job. The Board has asked them to raise a lot of money, and fall in Europe is very important to doing that efficiently. We have tried to reach a compromise, but no compromise is perfect. In the long run, we would like to work together to try to figure out a calendar and other alternatives.] Thank you for reaching out, and for working patiently with us to find a solution. Let me explain how I see both the short term and the long term. In the short term, Fundraising has been asked to raise $68 million this year to support the movement (including funding some parts of WLM!). This is going to be extremely difficult, given the decline in pageviews ( details <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2015-16&diff=12692813&oldid=12650742>). They also have to coordinate campaigns around the world, with a staff that is small by non-profit fundraising standards. For them to meet their goals, they must be effective in the fall in Europe. This means they must fundraise somewhere in Europe during September. Because of this, disrupting some part of WLM is hard to avoid. :/ This is why we started working with you, Andrea, and others to work out a compromise last month. My understanding is that Fundraising and the Italian chapter have already adjusted their campaign dates as part of the compromise. Fundraising also cooperated with the French chapter to move those dates. No compromise is perfect, but I think we did the best we could under the circumstances. We can continue to make small changes (for example, Lisa offered earlier in this thread to add WLM suggestions in fundraising emails) but the team needs to start working now. In the long term, WMF values Wiki Loves Monuments and the many other projects that use Central Notice. Clearly, we need a better process to help coordinate Central Notice, including WMF projects like fundraising. We would like to work on setting up such a process, but that will require more work on our side. So Lisa and I are talking about how we can trim back on other work to make this happen. We would also love to work with WLM and other programs to figure out better ways to communicate with potential contributors. For example, if we asked potential contributors to give their email (as Italia already does <http://wikilovesmonuments.wikimedia.it/>), we could almost certainly make the process more effective and reduce banners at the same time. Again, though, helping with something like this will require cutting back elsewhere in Fundraising/Community, and so that will take some time to figure out. Hope this helps clarify the situation. Lisa and I are happy to answer more questions if we can. Thanks- Luis On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 11:42 AM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

-- Luis Villa Sr. Director of Community Engagement Wikimedia Foundation *Working towards a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge.* _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org

Chris Keating

24 Aug 24 Aug

8:53 a.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Hi Romaine,

...

And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian WLM team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the Wikimedia Foundation.

Romaine Wiki

9:31 a.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according to the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In this case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing. I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer, Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not. You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have, but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have seen each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have learned from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not underestimate. And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all countries are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy tales. This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in all the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they have picked the worst possible country. You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what you make clear you missed the essence of this case. Romaine 2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating <chriskeatingwiki(a)gmail.com>om>:

...

Hi Romaine,

And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian WLM team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the Wikimedia Foundation.

Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I know from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF staff how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM will be less than you expect in this case). But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn has the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what they want. No number of emotive emails will change that. Regards, Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Jane Darnell

10:19 a.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to understand the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was late to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only specific municipalities that take part now. On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hi Romaine,

And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian WLM team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the

Wikimedia

Foundation.

Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I know from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF staff how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM will be less than you expect in this case). But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn has the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what they want. No number of emotive emails will change that. Regards, Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Romaine Wiki

10:54 a.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Hi Jane, Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama. The copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team does a great job in getting all the permissions. You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht. Romaine 2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell <jane023(a)gmail.com>om>:

...

Hi Romaine,

And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian

WLM

team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the

Wikimedia

Foundation.

Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I know from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF staff how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM will be less than you expect in this case). But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn has the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what they want. No number of emotive emails will change that. Regards, Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Jane Darnell

11:08 a.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

I think you misunderstand me. What I meant to say is that though the impact of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for those countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian situation is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of "casual uploaders/experienced uploaders" is the same as for other countries, ergo, the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue. On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hi Romaine, > And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian WLM > team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the Wikimedia > Foundation. Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I know from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with WMF staff how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on WLM will be less than you expect in this case). But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead with what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at all and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn has the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will always be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get what they want. No number of emotive emails will change that. Regards, Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Richard Symonds

11:11 a.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

I am not sure how the Italian WLM works, but I believe they do still attract newbies to the competition. I am not sure about their proportion of "casual uploaders/experienced uploaders" but we haven't seen figures either way there. Richard Symonds Wikimedia UK 0207 065 0992 Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects). *Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.* On 24 August 2015 at 12:08, Jane Darnell <jane023(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

does

a great job in getting all the permissions. You can't derive from the situation that there is no FoP, that thus the impact won't be too great. Te kort door de bocht. Romaine 2015-08-24 12:19 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell <jane023(a)gmail.com>om>: > Isn't Italy one of those odd European countries that won't allow freedom > of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the > type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to

understand

> the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was

late

> to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only

specific

> municipalities that take part now. > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly >> not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are >> crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is, according

>> the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In

this

>> case, WLM concedes everything and WMF nothing. >> I have seen already users asking if this will be the next big clash >> between WMF and the community, after the VisualEditor, MediaViewer, >> Superprotect and other issues. I personally hope not. >> >> You are of course free to think how much negative impact it will have, >> but I base my numbers on the statistics from the past years. We have

seen

>> each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have >> followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have

learned

>> from the past that it has a big impact we certainly should not >> underestimate. >> >> And I disagree with your statement that there always will be a clash >> somewhere. There is no need for a clash if people work together on the >> planning. September is not the only month in autumn, and not all

countries

>> are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy

tales.

>> This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in

all

>> the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they

have

>> picked the worst possible country. >> >> You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with what >> you make clear you missed the essence of this case. >> >> Romaine >> >> 2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating <chriskeatingwiki(a)gmail.com>om>: >> >>> Hi Romaine, >>> >>> > And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The Italian >>> WLM >>> > team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the >>> Wikimedia >>> > Foundation. >>> >>> Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I >>> understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact. I >>> know >>> from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with

WMF

>>> staff how frustrating this is (though actually I think the impact on >>> WLM >>> will be less than you expect in this case). >>> >>> But it is plainly not the case that the WMF has just blundered ahead >>> with >>> what it was going to do anyway. And even if WMF were not involved at

all

>>> and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if Autumn >>> has >>> the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will >>> always >>> be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get

what

>>> they want. No number of emotive emails will change that. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Chris >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>> Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>> <

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.w…

>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org

Jane Darnell

11:28 a.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Not sure how to measure this, but it would be interesting for our stats if we COULD measure this. I define a casual uploader as someone who comes to the upload wizard through the WLM easy upload link from a Wikipedia page rather than some other way. On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Richard Symonds < richard.symonds(a)wikimedia.org.uk> wrote:

...

Hi Jane, Yes, Italy is one of those odd countries without freedom of panorama.

The

copyright on photos of monuments is held by local governments. Wikimedia Italy has as large task to get permission from these hundreds/thousands local administrations for the photos uploaded. Therefore organising Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is a very very heavy and extensive task in comparison with other countries. The Italian Wiki Loves Monuments team

does

freedom

> of panorama? Surely the impact won't be too great, considering that the > type of people who can participate are at least savvy enough to

understand

> the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was

late

> to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only

specific

municipalities that take part now. On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki(a)gmail.com

> wrote: > >> Giving Wiki Loves Monuments the worst possible situation is certainly >> not a compromise, but a situation in what users from the community are >> crushed under the weight of the foundation. A compromise is,

according to

>> the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something.

In this

seen

>> each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have >> followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have

learned

countries

>> are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy

tales.

>> This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in

all

>> the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they

have

>> picked the worst possible country. >> >> You reduce this problem to just a "number of emotive emails", with

what

> you make clear you missed the essence of this case. > > Romaine > > 2015-08-24 10:53 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating <chriskeatingwiki(a)gmail.com

: >> >>> Hi Romaine, >>> >>> > And the outcome is ridiculous. This is not a compromise. The

Italian

>>> WLM >>> > team has been crashed under the weight and preponderance of the >>> Wikimedia >>> > Foundation. >>> >>> Well - it *is* a compromise. It isn't what you want and I think I >>> understand your reasons for thinking it will have a very big impact.

>>> know >>> from plenty of past experience of being a volunteer disagreeing with

WMF

all

>>> and there were some other method of allocating banner space, if

Autumn

>>> has >>> the peak fundraising potential and is when WLM happens, there will >>> always >>> be some kind of clash somewhere, and someone or other will not get

what

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.w…

>>> Unsubscribe:

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list > WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments > http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org > _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org

_______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Romaine Wiki

11:13 a.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Hi Jane, The situation is more complicated for the organisers, yes. But for participants in the contest it is not complicated. The Italian WLM team has organised it in such way it is easy to participate. Greetings, Romaine 2015-08-24 13:08 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell <jane023(a)gmail.com>om>:

...

does

understand

> the oddities of the Italian monuments situation & Commons. Italy was

late

> to join the WLM party for this reason, and I understand it is only

specific

>> the dictionary, a situation in what both parties concede something. In

this

seen

>> each time a big influence from conflicting banners or outage. We have >> followed the statistics and the impact of past years and we have

learned

countries

>> are occupied by Wiki Loves Monuments. Suggesting otherwise are fairy

tales.

>> This is one of the strongest examples of bad planning I have seen in

all

>> the years. Of every country that organises Wiki Loves Monuments, they

have

WMF

all

what

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.w…

>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Laurentius

5:37 p.m.

New subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Il giorno lun, 24/08/2015 alle 13.08 +0200, Jane Darnell ha scritto:

...

What I meant to say is that though the impact of no banner might be great, it is not so great as it would be for those countries who can attract newbies to the competition. The Italian situation is so complicated that I don't think their proportion of "casual uploaders/experienced uploaders" is the same as for other countries, ergo, the banner would be less of an issue, though still an issue.

In any country you have a list of monuments and you can submit a picture of one of those monuments. In Italy it's exactly the same. The problem lies in building the list of monuments! But for the users, it is not more difficult than in any other country. What we do is asking to the organizations that have the rights on the monuments to provide an authorization for uploading the pictures on Commons during the contest. The participants to the contest do not have any specific work to do related to this. Laurentius

Strainu

5:28 p.m.

New subject: Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

2015-08-18 21:42 GMT+03:00 Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki(a)gmail.com>om>:

...

Wiki Loves Monuments depends for at least 99% on the banner.

It's more like 85-90% in my experience, but still a lot.

...

*What is the situation?* * The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy during the month September. * The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the contest in Italy and needs a banner as well.

Why not use the sitenotice? Strainu

Hong, Yongmin

25 Aug 25 Aug

8:13 a.m.

New subject: Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising

Sitenotice depends on the project, not country of users. So, users in Italy who is browsing ko.wikipedia.org will not see the banner if it is displayed in sitenotice, which is not the case for CentralNotice. -- Revi https://revi.me -- Sent from Android -- 2015. 8. 25. 오전 2:29에 "Strainu" <strainu10(a)gmail.xn--com>-4f21ay07k 작성:

...

2015-08-18 21:42 GMT+03:00 Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki(a)gmail.com>om>:

Wiki Loves Monuments depends for at least 99% on the banner.

It's more like 85-90% in my experience, but still a lot.

*What is the situation?* * The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy during the month September. * The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the

contest

in Italy and needs a banner as well.

Why not use the sitenotice? Strainu _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

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participants (31)

Andrea Zanni
Andrew Gray
Andy Mabbett
attolippip
Chris Keating
Claudia Garád
Craig Franklin
Gergo Tisza
Hong, Yongmin
Ilario Valdelli
Jane Darnell
John Mark Vandenberg
Laurentius
Liam Wyatt
Lisa Gruwell
Luis Villa
Maarten Dammers
MF-Warburg
Michael Peel
Nathan
Peter Southwood
Pine W
Platonides
Richard Symonds
Ricordisamoa
Risker
Romaine Wiki
Sam Klein
Steinsplitter Wiki
Strainu
Ziko van Dijk