For a long long time it has been the operative assumption that the Wikimedia Foundation carries the legal liability, and if things go really really badly wrong, the foundation would sacrifice itself, so the community, and the content itself could continue elsewhere.
There has however been gradual development of the foundations structures in two ways that seem to indicate that this operative assumption (not being anywhere formally enunciated, except in the tangible fact of working under the GFDL) may not last forever.
Firstly there is the building of increasingly robust defensive bulwarks against litigation and other forms that the foundation could be seriously harmed. This is something which is clearly an unequivocal good in what ever operative assumption the Foundation labors under, and should continue no matter what. The question on this front rather is, whether there exists now, or will exist in the foreseeable future, a sufficient level of robustness for these defenses that the need to keep the Foundation as expendable, discardable isn't relevant anymore from a standpoint of necessity?
The other facet of the question is the speed at which the organs of the foundation develop into integral parts of how our whole greater endeavour operates. Note I am not saying indispensible in the sense that those particular organs are locked into place (we are a long way from that yet), but integral in the sense that should the highly unlikely eventuality of having to start again occur (as the GFDL allows), _something_ would have fill their functions in the operation of the restarted endeavour.
The problem (or non-problem, as the facts may obtain) here lies on what philosophy do we adopt toward this earlier operative assumption of sacrificability?
Do we find on reflection, that we have already crossed the Rubicon, that although theoretically the work could be restarted elsewhere, the disruption would be high enough, that it is wisest to abandon all worry about the possibility of sacrificing the Foundation, and concentrate on making the Foundation functional without regard to what things it might lock us into, and speed up construction of legal and other defensive bulwarks into a kind of Fortress Wikimedia Foundation?
Or should we seriously consider examining every new thing the Foundation takes onto its plate, making doubly sure that it is something that would compromise our ability to just chuck the Foundation away like the tail of a lizard, and trust we will have the resources to grow a new tail, there being no vital organs in it.
Or can someone in one swift stroke demonstrate that all the above is entirely inconsequential? For me, that would be a great relief, and good enough.
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote:
For a long long time it has been the operative assumption that the Wikimedia Foundation carries the legal liability, and if things go really really badly wrong, the foundation would sacrifice itself, so the community, and the content itself could continue elsewhere.
What?
Firstly there is the building of increasingly robust defensive bulwarks against litigation and other forms that the foundation could be seriously harmed.
The behavior of the community is the whole reason this risks even exist. How about the community take some ownership for its own actions. i.e. "Do folks own any of this risk based on their own actions?"
The other facet of the question is the speed at which the organs of the foundation develop into integral parts of how our whole greater endeavour operates. Note I am not saying indispensible in the sense that those particular organs are locked into place (we are a long way from that yet), but integral in the sense that should the highly unlikely eventuality of having to start again occur (as the GFDL allows), _something_ would have fill their functions in the operation of the restarted endeavour.
The problem (or non-problem, as the facts may obtain) here lies on what philosophy do we adopt toward this earlier operative assumption of sacrificability?
Man, this is what I meant when I said "gaping disconnects from real world realities".
Do we find on reflection, that we have already crossed the Rubicon, that although theoretically the work could be restarted elsewhere, the disruption would be high enough, that it is wisest to abandon all worry about the possibility of sacrificing the Foundation, and concentrate on making the Foundation functional without regard to what things it might lock us into, and speed up construction of legal and other defensive bulwarks into a kind of Fortress Wikimedia Foundation?
Or should we seriously consider examining every new thing the Foundation takes onto its plate, making doubly sure that it is something that would compromise our ability to just chuck the Foundation away like the tail of a lizard, and trust we will have the resources to grow a new tail, there being no vital organs in it.
"Right to leave, Right to fork". Cimon, you are running for the board? What on earth are you talking about?
Jeff
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote:
For a long long time it has been the operative assumption that the Wikimedia Foundation carries the legal liability, and if things go really really badly wrong, the foundation would sacrifice itself, so the community, and the content itself could continue elsewhere.
There has however been gradual development of the foundations structures in two ways that seem to indicate that this operative assumption (not being anywhere formally enunciated, except in the tangible fact of working under the GFDL) may not last forever.
Firstly there is the building of increasingly robust defensive bulwarks against litigation and other forms that the foundation could be seriously harmed. This is something which is clearly an unequivocal good in what ever operative assumption the Foundation labors under, and should continue no matter what. The question on this front rather is, whether there exists now, or will exist in the foreseeable future, a sufficient level of robustness for these defenses that the need to keep the Foundation as expendable, discardable isn't relevant anymore from a standpoint of necessity?
The other facet of the question is the speed at which the organs of the foundation develop into integral parts of how our whole greater endeavour operates. Note I am not saying indispensible in the sense that those particular organs are locked into place (we are a long way from that yet), but integral in the sense that should the highly unlikely eventuality of having to start again occur (as the GFDL allows), _something_ would have fill their functions in the operation of the restarted endeavour.
The problem (or non-problem, as the facts may obtain) here lies on what philosophy do we adopt toward this earlier operative assumption of sacrificability?
Do we find on reflection, that we have already crossed the Rubicon, that although theoretically the work could be restarted elsewhere, the disruption would be high enough, that it is wisest to abandon all worry about the possibility of sacrificing the Foundation, and concentrate on making the Foundation functional without regard to what things it might lock us into, and speed up construction of legal and other defensive bulwarks into a kind of Fortress Wikimedia Foundation?
Or should we seriously consider examining every new thing the Foundation takes onto its plate, making doubly sure that it is something that would compromise our ability to just chuck the Foundation away like the tail of a lizard, and trust we will have the resources to grow a new tail, there being no vital organs in it.
Or can someone in one swift stroke demonstrate that all the above is entirely inconsequential? For me, that would be a great relief, and good enough.
I appreciate you ask questions Cimon. But, please, please, please, could you make your english a little bit more accessible for non natives ?
ant
Anthere wrote: <snip>
I appreciate you ask questions Cimon. But, please, please, please, could you make your english a little bit more accessible for non natives ?
More accessible for natives, too... :)
I'll summarise/translate (apologies to Cimon if I mangle it):
There was a lot of worry in the Old Days about what would happen if the Foundation was forced to shut down because of legal action. It was thought that the content and community would just be able to move somewhere else and restart, and things would carry on almost like normal.
Recently, people have become unsure that we could do this anymore, due to the large number of changes regarding the involvement of the Foundation with the projects.
For one thing it has become less likely that the Foundation would be shut down due to better legal defences, which is good. However we need to ask if this is a certainty or not, and decide if being able to relocate easily is still important.
Also, due to the changes that are happening, it is becoming harder for us to relocate; we need to make sure that we can fill in these gaps if we did have to restart.
So: do we concentrate on making the Foundation immune, and ignore the possibility of having to relocate, or do we make sure that everything the Foundation does will be portable?
Or doesn't it matter?
Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:
Anthere wrote:
<snip>
I appreciate you ask questions Cimon. But, please, please, please, could you make your english a little bit more accessible for non natives ?
More accessible for natives, too... :)
I'll summarise/translate (apologies to Cimon if I mangle it):
There was a lot of worry in the Old Days about what would happen if the Foundation was forced to shut down because of legal action. It was thought that the content and community would just be able to move somewhere else and restart, and things would carry on almost like normal.
Recently, people have become unsure that we could do this anymore, due to the large number of changes regarding the involvement of the Foundation with the projects.
If you run away from your problems, you just have the same problems somewhere else. If there are legal issues with content, better to tackle them head on rather than run away from them. Who would trust content from a community that runs away from its legal obligations anyway?
For one thing it has become less likely that the Foundation would be shut down due to better legal defences, which is good. However we need to ask if this is a certainty or not, and decide if being able to relocate easily is still important.
Also, due to the changes that are happening, it is becoming harder for us to relocate; we need to make sure that we can fill in these gaps if we did have to restart.
So: do we concentrate on making the Foundation immune, and ignore the possibility of having to relocate, or do we make sure that everything the Foundation does will be portable?
I have cloned Wikipedia completely, and as near as I can tell, I am the first one to do it so completely. I have not seen anyone else pull this off yet without the Foundations help. Again, this talk is all nonsense. The Foundation is not going away.
Jeff
Or doesn't it matter?
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