I think that a number of us may appreciate this article, specifically people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant committees, and WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC&L.
http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-...
Pine
Which of these heinous sins do we commit?
On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 2:59 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
I think that a number of us may appreciate this article, specifically people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant committees, and WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC&L.
http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-...
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
lol .... This is why “Nonprofit: The Musical” will have, as one of its characters, a consultant robot, whose only job is to repeat exactly what an internal staff or board member says; the difference is that the robot actually gets listened to.
On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
I think that a number of us may appreciate this article, specifically people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant committees, and WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC&L.
http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-...
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is 100% written by volunteers. That's simply false. Wikipedia is written by individuals with a mix of motives, and for some people those motives include financial compensation.
Diverging a little into the topic of paid contributions: generally I feel that *disclosed* paid editing is ok so long as it's done in a manner that's compliant with our policies. For example, a museum staffer who publicly discloses their affiliation and writes on Wikipedia about a fossil that the museum has in its collection may be a net positive writer for the encyclopedia. On the other hand, a someone who's a POV-pusher for a political interest, whether paid or unpaid, may be a net negative for the encyclopedia.
In any case, Wikipedia is only partially written by volunteers, and public communications from WMF should be consistent with this reality.
Pine
On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:58 AM, rupert THURNER rupert.thurner@gmail.com wrote:
lol .... This is why “Nonprofit: The Musical” will have, as one of its characters, a consultant robot, whose only job is to repeat exactly what an internal staff or board member says; the difference is that the robot actually gets listened to.
On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
I think that a number of us may appreciate this article, specifically people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant committees, and WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC&L.
http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-...
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is 100% written by volunteers. That's simply false.
I find that point of view entirely wrong. The WMF does not pay anybody to edit, so editors are volunteers. I might follow the same line of reasoning and say, that Wikipedia is not neutral, because people are allowed to write about their own country/city etc.
Contributors make a living from other sources. Anybody could have some affiliation other than getting paid and total neutrality is hard to come by.
Thyge
2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is 100% written by volunteers. That's simply false. Wikipedia is written by individuals with a mix of motives, and for some people those motives include financial compensation.
Diverging a little into the topic of paid contributions: generally I feel that *disclosed* paid editing is ok so long as it's done in a manner that's compliant with our policies. For example, a museum staffer who publicly discloses their affiliation and writes on Wikipedia about a fossil that the museum has in its collection may be a net positive writer for the encyclopedia. On the other hand, a someone who's a POV-pusher for a political interest, whether paid or unpaid, may be a net negative for the encyclopedia.
In any case, Wikipedia is only partially written by volunteers, and public communications from WMF should be consistent with this reality.
Pine
On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:58 AM, rupert THURNER rupert.thurner@gmail.com wrote:
lol .... This is why “Nonprofit: The Musical” will have, as one of its characters, a consultant robot, whose only job is to repeat exactly what an internal staff or board member says; the difference is that the robot actually gets listened to.
On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
I think that a number of us may appreciate this article, specifically people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant committees,
and
WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC&L.
http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-...
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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The fact that someone is not paid *by WMF* to edit does not mean that they are a volunteer. That would be like saying that a newspaper salesperson standing at the door of a grocery store is a volunteer because he is not paid by the grocer and instead paid by the newspaper. As with paid contributors to Wikipedia, the newspaper salesperson's presence at the door of the grocery store may or may not be in compliance with the policies of the grocery store.
Agreed that perfect neutrality is difficult, but we try to achieve neutrality through the wisdom of the crowds and avoiding undue weight. We have a policy on neutrality; we don't have a policy that forbids all paid editing, and in some cases I feel that paid editors who are honest about their affiliations and compensation can be net positives on Wikipedia.
Pine
On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Thyge ltl.privat@gmail.com wrote:
2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is 100% written by volunteers. That's simply false.
I find that point of view entirely wrong. The WMF does not pay anybody to edit, so editors are volunteers. I might follow the same line of reasoning and say, that Wikipedia is not neutral, because people are allowed to write about their own country/city etc.
Contributors make a living from other sources. Anybody could have some affiliation other than getting paid and total neutrality is hard to come by.
Thyge
2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is 100% written by volunteers. That's simply false. Wikipedia is written by individuals with a mix of motives, and for some people those motives include financial compensation.
Diverging a little into the topic of paid contributions: generally I feel that *disclosed* paid editing is ok so long as it's done in a manner
that's
compliant with our policies. For example, a museum staffer who publicly discloses their affiliation and writes on Wikipedia about a fossil that
the
museum has in its collection may be a net positive writer for the encyclopedia. On the other hand, a someone who's a POV-pusher for a political interest, whether paid or unpaid, may be a net negative for the encyclopedia.
In any case, Wikipedia is only partially written by volunteers, and
public
communications from WMF should be consistent with this reality.
Pine
On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:58 AM, rupert THURNER <rupert.thurner@gmail.com
wrote:
lol .... This is why “Nonprofit: The Musical” will have, as one of its characters, a consultant robot, whose only job is to repeat exactly what an internal staff or board member says; the difference is that the robot actually gets listened to.
On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
I think that a number of us may appreciate this article, specifically people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant committees,
and
WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC&L.
http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-...
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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Hoi, What is your intention, to be "right" at all cost? Thanks, GerardM
On 8 February 2016 at 00:04, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
The fact that someone is not paid *by WMF* to edit does not mean that they are a volunteer. That would be like saying that a newspaper salesperson standing at the door of a grocery store is a volunteer because he is not paid by the grocer and instead paid by the newspaper. As with paid contributors to Wikipedia, the newspaper salesperson's presence at the door of the grocery store may or may not be in compliance with the policies of the grocery store.
Agreed that perfect neutrality is difficult, but we try to achieve neutrality through the wisdom of the crowds and avoiding undue weight. We have a policy on neutrality; we don't have a policy that forbids all paid editing, and in some cases I feel that paid editors who are honest about their affiliations and compensation can be net positives on Wikipedia.
Pine
On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Thyge ltl.privat@gmail.com wrote:
2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is
100%
written by volunteers. That's simply false.
I find that point of view entirely wrong. The WMF does not pay anybody to edit, so editors are volunteers. I might follow the same line of
reasoning
and say, that Wikipedia is not neutral, because people are allowed to
write
about their own country/city etc.
Contributors make a living from other sources. Anybody could have some affiliation other than getting paid and total neutrality is hard to come by.
Thyge
2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is
100%
written by volunteers. That's simply false. Wikipedia is written by individuals with a mix of motives, and for some people those motives include financial compensation.
Diverging a little into the topic of paid contributions: generally I
feel
that *disclosed* paid editing is ok so long as it's done in a manner
that's
compliant with our policies. For example, a museum staffer who publicly discloses their affiliation and writes on Wikipedia about a fossil that
the
museum has in its collection may be a net positive writer for the encyclopedia. On the other hand, a someone who's a POV-pusher for a political interest, whether paid or unpaid, may be a net negative for
the
encyclopedia.
In any case, Wikipedia is only partially written by volunteers, and
public
communications from WMF should be consistent with this reality.
Pine
On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:58 AM, rupert THURNER <
rupert.thurner@gmail.com
wrote:
lol .... This is why “Nonprofit: The Musical” will have, as one of
its
characters, a consultant robot, whose only job is to repeat exactly what an internal staff or board member says; the difference is that the robot actually gets listened to.
On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
I think that a number of us may appreciate this article,
specifically
people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant
committees,
and
WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC&L.
http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-...
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Some Wikipedians in Residence also get paid for their work, saying "Wikipedia is written by volunteers" is honest and doesnt have the puffary of 100%. As a community we are working to create more activities, projects and partnerships with GLAM where the people participating are being paid to edit as part of their employment so yeah 100% is no longer an honest declaration even if its just few 100 people out the 70,000 plus that contribute every month
On 8 February 2016 at 07:10, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, What is your intention, to be "right" at all cost? Thanks, GerardM
On 8 February 2016 at 00:04, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
The fact that someone is not paid *by WMF* to edit does not mean that
they
are a volunteer. That would be like saying that a newspaper salesperson standing at the door of a grocery store is a volunteer because he is not paid by the grocer and instead paid by the newspaper. As with paid contributors to Wikipedia, the newspaper salesperson's presence at the
door
of the grocery store may or may not be in compliance with the policies of the grocery store.
Agreed that perfect neutrality is difficult, but we try to achieve neutrality through the wisdom of the crowds and avoiding undue weight. We have a policy on neutrality; we don't have a policy that forbids all paid editing, and in some cases I feel that paid editors who are honest about their affiliations and compensation can be net positives on Wikipedia.
Pine
On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Thyge ltl.privat@gmail.com wrote:
2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is
100%
written by volunteers. That's simply false.
I find that point of view entirely wrong. The WMF does not pay anybody
to
edit, so editors are volunteers. I might follow the same line of
reasoning
and say, that Wikipedia is not neutral, because people are allowed to
write
about their own country/city etc.
Contributors make a living from other sources. Anybody could have some affiliation other than getting paid and total neutrality is hard to
come
by.
Thyge
2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is
100%
written by volunteers. That's simply false. Wikipedia is written by individuals with a mix of motives, and for some people those motives include financial compensation.
Diverging a little into the topic of paid contributions: generally I
feel
that *disclosed* paid editing is ok so long as it's done in a manner
that's
compliant with our policies. For example, a museum staffer who
publicly
discloses their affiliation and writes on Wikipedia about a fossil
that
the
museum has in its collection may be a net positive writer for the encyclopedia. On the other hand, a someone who's a POV-pusher for a political interest, whether paid or unpaid, may be a net negative for
the
encyclopedia.
In any case, Wikipedia is only partially written by volunteers, and
public
communications from WMF should be consistent with this reality.
Pine
On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:58 AM, rupert THURNER <
rupert.thurner@gmail.com
wrote:
lol .... This is why “Nonprofit: The Musical” will have, as one of
its
characters, a consultant robot, whose only job is to repeat exactly what an internal staff or board member says; the difference is that the robot actually gets listened to.
On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com
wrote:
I think that a number of us may appreciate this article,
specifically
people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant
committees,
and
WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC&L.
http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-...
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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Hoi, It would be a travesty when a "Wikipedian in residence" is paid only to write articles. In my honest opinion, I doubt that they have much time to write themselves. This whole negativity that this thread is part of indicates how sick the "community" is because it is not the "community", it is people who think that their values are the community...
No reason why, there are maybe a few hundred of them in this way... if at all. Thanks, GerardM
On 8 February 2016 at 01:09, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
Some Wikipedians in Residence also get paid for their work, saying "Wikipedia is written by volunteers" is honest and doesnt have the puffary of 100%. As a community we are working to create more activities, projects and partnerships with GLAM where the people participating are being paid to edit as part of their employment so yeah 100% is no longer an honest declaration even if its just few 100 people out the 70,000 plus that contribute every month
On 8 February 2016 at 07:10, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, What is your intention, to be "right" at all cost? Thanks, GerardM
On 8 February 2016 at 00:04, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
The fact that someone is not paid *by WMF* to edit does not mean that
they
are a volunteer. That would be like saying that a newspaper salesperson standing at the door of a grocery store is a volunteer because he is
not
paid by the grocer and instead paid by the newspaper. As with paid contributors to Wikipedia, the newspaper salesperson's presence at the
door
of the grocery store may or may not be in compliance with the policies of the grocery store.
Agreed that perfect neutrality is difficult, but we try to achieve neutrality through the wisdom of the crowds and avoiding undue weight.
We
have a policy on neutrality; we don't have a policy that forbids all
paid
editing, and in some cases I feel that paid editors who are honest
about
their affiliations and compensation can be net positives on Wikipedia.
Pine
On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Thyge ltl.privat@gmail.com wrote:
2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is
100%
written by volunteers. That's simply false.
I find that point of view entirely wrong. The WMF does not pay
anybody
to
edit, so editors are volunteers. I might follow the same line of
reasoning
and say, that Wikipedia is not neutral, because people are allowed to
write
about their own country/city etc.
Contributors make a living from other sources. Anybody could have
some
affiliation other than getting paid and total neutrality is hard to
come
by.
Thyge
2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is
100%
written by volunteers. That's simply false. Wikipedia is written by individuals with a mix of motives, and for some people those
motives
include financial compensation.
Diverging a little into the topic of paid contributions: generally
I
feel
that *disclosed* paid editing is ok so long as it's done in a
manner
that's
compliant with our policies. For example, a museum staffer who
publicly
discloses their affiliation and writes on Wikipedia about a fossil
that
the
museum has in its collection may be a net positive writer for the encyclopedia. On the other hand, a someone who's a POV-pusher for a political interest, whether paid or unpaid, may be a net negative
for
the
encyclopedia.
In any case, Wikipedia is only partially written by volunteers, and
public
communications from WMF should be consistent with this reality.
Pine
On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:58 AM, rupert THURNER <
rupert.thurner@gmail.com
wrote:
lol .... This is why “Nonprofit: The Musical” will have, as one
of
its
characters, a consultant robot, whose only job is to repeat
exactly
what an internal staff or board member says; the difference is
that
the robot actually gets listened to.
On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com
wrote:
> I think that a number of us may appreciate this article,
specifically
> people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant
committees,
and
> WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC&L. > >
http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that-need-...
> > Pine > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
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-- GN. President Wikimedia Australia WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Volunteer and unpaid are not the same thing. There is overlap, but not congruency. Cheers, p
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Thyge Sent: Monday, 08 February 2016 12:17 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] "9 annoying nonprofit trends that need to die"
2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is 100% written by volunteers. That's simply false.
I find that point of view entirely wrong. The WMF does not pay anybody to edit, so editors are volunteers. I might follow the same line of reasoning and say, that Wikipedia is not neutral, because people are allowed to write about their own country/city etc.
Contributors make a living from other sources. Anybody could have some affiliation other than getting paid and total neutrality is hard to come by.
Thyge
2016-02-07 19:10 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
A marketing slogan that I'd like WMF to banish is that Wikipedia is 100% written by volunteers. That's simply false. Wikipedia is written by individuals with a mix of motives, and for some people those motives include financial compensation.
Diverging a little into the topic of paid contributions: generally I feel that *disclosed* paid editing is ok so long as it's done in a manner that's compliant with our policies. For example, a museum staffer who publicly discloses their affiliation and writes on Wikipedia about a fossil that the museum has in its collection may be a net positive writer for the encyclopedia. On the other hand, a someone who's a POV-pusher for a political interest, whether paid or unpaid, may be a net negative for the encyclopedia.
In any case, Wikipedia is only partially written by volunteers, and public communications from WMF should be consistent with this reality.
Pine
On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 1:58 AM, rupert THURNER rupert.thurner@gmail.com wrote:
lol .... This is why “Nonprofit: The Musical” will have, as one of its characters, a consultant robot, whose only job is to repeat exactly what an internal staff or board member says; the difference is that the robot actually gets listened to.
On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:59 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
I think that a number of us may appreciate this article, specifically people who are involved with Wikimedia affiliates, grant committees,
and
WMF Community Engagement including CR and PC&L.
http://nonprofitwithballs.com/2015/06/9-annoying-nonprofit-trends-that -need-to-die/
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