Regarding, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/nonalphausers
On 12/21/06, Yann Forget yann@forget-me.net wrote:
If you want this to be meaningful, you need to remove accounts with only Arabic numbers. Obviously these can be recognized easily by English-only speakers.
Some are, some are not. 863929163 is not too easily remembered, although I can type it. While 555 is a fine name for an English speaker to communicate with... Feel free to skip over the ones that seem too English compatible. With 1000 in the list there are plenty to look at.
Obviously it does not count users who were blocked before they could "contribute".
This would be useful too, as a separate list, maybe.
Based on your suggestions I have created a new list consisting of all usernames which have been blocked since Dec 2005 that contain any non-ascii characters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/nonalphausers/blocked
They have been grouped based on the existence of edits by the users.
It would be useful if someone would go through and fix the places where a loose RTL character is making everything backwards (don't remove the RTL mark, just insert a matching LTR mark). I have no idea how people edit mixed directional text with any ease, and I can't seem to find help on any of our metapages.
Of 3,049,903 usernames in the enwiki database 454,122 contain at least one non-ascii character. Of those, 2,016 have been blocked at least once in the last year.
Of the 454,122 accounts with non-ascii characters 367,501 were created in the last year.
I am somewhat surprised that so much fervor is being made of a matter which appears, by the numbers, to of nearly insignificant frequency.
--- Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
Regarding,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/nonalphausers
On 12/21/06, Yann Forget yann@forget-me.net wrote:
If you want this to be meaningful, you need to
remove accounts with only
Arabic numbers. Obviously these can be recognized
easily by English-only
speakers.
Some are, some are not. 863929163 is not too easily remembered, although I can type it. While 555 is a fine name for an English speaker to communicate with... Feel free to skip over the ones that seem too English compatible. With 1000 in the list there are plenty to look at.
Obviously it does not count users who were
blocked before they could
"contribute".
This would be useful too, as a separate list,
maybe.
Based on your suggestions I have created a new list consisting of all usernames which have been blocked since Dec 2005 that contain any non-ascii characters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/nonalphausers/blocked
They have been grouped based on the existence of edits by the users.
It would be useful if someone would go through and fix the places where a loose RTL character is making everything backwards (don't remove the RTL mark, just insert a matching LTR mark). I have no idea how people edit mixed directional text with any ease, and I can't seem to find help on any of our metapages.
Of 3,049,903 usernames in the enwiki database 454,122 contain at least one non-ascii character. Of those, 2,016 have been blocked at least once in the last year.
Of the 454,122 accounts with non-ascii characters 367,501 were created in the last year.
I am somewhat surprised that so much fervor is being made of a matter which appears, by the numbers, to of nearly insignificant frequency.
Of course much less would be made of this matter if it were not for SUL. You must also take into account the editors who have been editing as IP accounts. After SUL they will no longer default to anon on entering en.WP, but will default to their natural username; and if that happens to be non-latin they will be blocked. Obviously some people believe this will be significant. How many good faith editors being blocked would warrant significance in your eyes? And it is not just the "being blocked" that is the issue. It is the fact that these editors can not have the full benefits of SUL. They will have either have to manage multiple accounts, contribution records, talk pages, etc. or else not have editing privledges on all Wikimedia wikis.
Birgitte SB
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Hi
On 12/22/06, Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
Regarding, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/nonalphausers
On 12/21/06, Yann Forget yann@forget-me.net wrote:
If you want this to be meaningful, you need to remove accounts with only Arabic numbers. Obviously these can be recognized easily by English-only speakers.
Some are, some are not. 863929163 is not too easily remembered, although I can type it. While 555 is a fine name for an English speaker to communicate with... Feel free to skip over the ones that seem too English compatible. With 1000 in the list there are plenty to look at.
Related to numbers-only usernames: since the activation of the Antispoof extension is imposible to create a new user account of this type. I'am ([[m:User:555]]) unable to create new accounts on any Wikimedia, needing to ask for a local admin to create a new one to me, or using my old wiki-username. [1]
Others wikis have a policy fully disallowing any number on usernames. And, the etnocentrich policy is currently active in some more Wikimedia wikis [2]
[1] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.technical/27624/... [2] http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiuto:Nome_utente#Nomi_utente_inappropriati, http://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Aiuto:Nome_utente#Nomi_utente_inappropriati
Luiz Augusto ha scritto:
Others wikis have a policy fully disallowing any number on usernames. And, the etnocentrich policy is currently active in some more Wikimedia wikis [2]
[2] http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiuto:Nome_utente#Nomi_utente_inappropriati, http://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Aiuto:Nome_utente#Nomi_utente_inappropriati
It's an invitation to prefer Latin script in order to make the search easier, not a strict prohibition. Usernames written entirely with non-Latin script are not blocked automatically.
G.
On 12/22/06, Gianluigi Gamba gigamb@tin.it wrote:
It's an invitation to prefer Latin script in order to make the search easier, not a strict prohibition. Usernames written entirely with non-Latin script are not blocked automatically.
Although it might be hard to tell from the accusations in this thread: They are not blocked automatically on enwiki either.
On 12/22/06, Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/22/06, Gianluigi Gamba gigamb@tin.it wrote:
It's an invitation to prefer Latin script in order to make the search easier, not a strict prohibition. Usernames written entirely with non-Latin script are not blocked automatically.
Although it might be hard to tell from the accusations in this thread: They are not blocked automatically on enwiki either.
Gianluigi is right to assert the issue for the Italian Wikipedia: this isn't a auto-block, first the users talks). But sorry Gregory, English Wikipedia really make auto-blocks until no first talk. ---- 01:41, 19 June 2006 ¬http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:%C2%AC&action=edit( Talkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:%C2%AC&action=edit| contribs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%C2%AC) New user account (Talkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:%C2%AC&action=edit| contribs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%C2%AC | blockhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Blockip/%C2%AC ) 01:43, 19 June 2006 Pschemp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Pschemp ( Talk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Pschemp | contribshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Pschemp) blocked "¬http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:%C2%AC&action=edit( contribs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%C2%AC)" with an expiry time of indefinite ({{usernameblock}} non standard characters) ----- User with 0 edits, 0 deleted edits, and 0 messages on his talk page.
On 12/22/06, Luiz Augusto lugusto@gmail.com wrote:
Gianluigi is right to assert the issue for the Italian Wikipedia: this isn't a auto-block, first the users talks). But sorry Gregory, English Wikipedia really make auto-blocks until no first talk.
There are over 400,000 usernames on enwiki with non-ascii characters in them. Only 3,394 usernames with non-ascii characters have been blocked on enwiki.
Enwiki is big enough to find single examples to support virtually any claim.
Furthermore, you first example is only furthering the argument that enwiki's policy is not ethnocentric.
Can you tell me what "language" that symbol would be a reasonable name in?
To save you the time in researching, I'll just tell you: Thats the symbol used in logic for negation... it's not a sane name in any language.
On enwiki the permission to use non-latin characters for names will result in far more native English speakers using 'cute' characters for their names and presenting an unreasonable burden on the community then it will result in speakers of other languages being able to use their preferred name. This is the case simply because of the relative numbers of users from each class who edit the English Wikipedia[http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Edits_by_project_and_country_of_origin].
An ideal solution would avoid causing trouble for speakers of non-native languages when they edit outside their home language projects while simultaneously avoiding an unnecessary proliferation of locally inconvenient names.
I don't know that there is a simple solution to this problem, but I think we need to stop over-exaggerating the issue and attributing enwiki's action to biases or malice if we are to make any progress.
On 12/22/06, Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
There are over 400,000 usernames on enwiki with non-ascii characters in them. Only 3,394 usernames with non-ascii characters have been blocked on enwiki.
The first number is in error. Almost everywhere usersnames are handled in mediawiki, space characters are converted into underscores, but this is not true in the user table. My failure to account for this caused me to count usernames that contain spaces as once with non-ascii characters. I did not spot check the results because I used the same matching expression that I used for the block log, and I had carefully checked those results.
The correct total count for usernames with non-ascii characters is 7,678. I apologise for this substantial error. Although I don't believe this in any way invalidates the claim that I made that enwiki is not automatically blocking such names.
On 12/22/06, Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/22/06, Luiz Augusto lugusto@gmail.com wrote:
Gianluigi is right to assert the issue for the Italian Wikipedia: this
isn't
a auto-block, first the users talks). But sorry Gregory, English
Wikipedia
really make auto-blocks until no first talk.
There are over 400,000 usernames on enwiki with non-ascii characters in them. Only 3,394 usernames with non-ascii characters have been blocked on enwiki.
Enwiki is big enough to find single examples to support virtually any claim.
Furthermore, you first example is only furthering the argument that enwiki's policy is not ethnocentric.
Do you really want to me download the latest enwiki-latest-logging.sql.gzhttp://download.wikimedia.org/enwiki/latest/enwiki-latest-logging.sql.gzfile and make a local query? Sincerely, I don't understand any effort to defend this stupid policy from English Wikipedia, like I don't understand the recent xenophobic on the latest steward elections. This policy, the votes like "generic vote against Anglo-American focus of all wiki-projects" and some small points are to me the same subject: bias
I don't have time to talk in biased subjects, my free time is devoted to develop libre content.
On 12/22/06, Luiz Augusto lugusto@gmail.com wrote: [snip]
and make a local query? Sincerely, I don't understand any effort to defend this stupid policy from English Wikipedia, like I don't understand the recent xenophobic on the latest steward elections. This policy, the votes like "generic vote against Anglo-American focus of all wiki-projects" and some small points are to me the same subject: bias
I don't have time to talk in biased subjects, my free time is devoted to develop libre content.
Since you mention the policy, I wonder if you've read it.... The original formulation of the policy was:
"'''Avoid non-[[Latin alphabet|Latin]] characters'''. Most of your fellow editors will be unable to read a name written in Cyrillic, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or other scripts. Many of them will be additionally burdened, as such names will be displayed for them only as question marks ("??? ??") or squares ("□□□ □□"). If your name is usually written in a non-Latin script, please consider transliterating it to avoid confusion, and allow easier access to your talk page by typing your name in the search field or URL bar. However, you may use other alphabets as alternate link text in your [[WP:SIG|signature]]."
Today it includes a little less explanation and the word avoid was removed.
"Names with non-Latin characters: Unfortunately, most of your fellow editors will be unable to read a name written in Cyrillic, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or other scripts. Many of them will also be additionally burdened, as such names may be displayed for them only as question marks ("??? ??"), squares ("□□□ □□"), replacement characters ("??? ??") or worse, nonsense or mojibake ("Ã!%ôs*"). If your name is usually written in a non-Latin script, please consider transliterating it to avoid confusion, and allow easier access to your talk page by typing your name in the search field or URL bar."
If you really can read that as bias.. then I'm afraid we're just going to have to disagree.
I guess I'll just have to be branded a "bigot against people named mathematical symbols". ;)
I regret to post my previous mail. You English Wikipedians shall be cursed of disclimination.
I have told to the Japanese community you lifted up that fool ethnocentric and discliminative policy. I would like to add some editors hadn't believed Engilsh Wikipedia did enforce so a discliminative policy. You made me a liar. Well, it is not a big deal, but still the fact remains you are racists.
Bye,
Today it includes a little less explanation and the word avoid was removed.
"Names with non-Latin characters: Unfortunately, most of your fellow editors will be unable to read a name written in Cyrillic, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or other scripts. Many of them will also be additionally burdened, as such names may be displayed for them only as question marks ("??? ??"), squares ("□□□ □□"), replacement characters ("??? ??") or worse, nonsense or mojibake ("Ã!%ôs*"). If your name is usually written in a non-Latin script, please consider transliterating it to avoid confusion, and allow easier access to your talk page by typing your name in the search field or URL bar."
If you really can read that as bias.. then I'm afraid we're just going to have to disagree.
I guess I'll just have to be branded a "bigot against people named mathematical symbols". ;) _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
This case needs referendum on English Wikipedia, so other communities would be able to know is this something which is dominant position on English Wikipedia or not.
On 12/23/06, Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com wrote:
I regret to post my previous mail. You English Wikipedians shall be cursed of disclimination.
I have told to the Japanese community you lifted up that fool ethnocentric and discliminative policy. I would like to add some editors hadn't believed Engilsh Wikipedia did enforce so a discliminative policy. You made me a liar. Well, it is not a big deal, but still the fact remains you are racists.
Bye,
Today it includes a little less explanation and the word avoid was removed.
"Names with non-Latin characters: Unfortunately, most of your fellow editors will be unable to read a name written in Cyrillic, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or other scripts. Many of them will also be additionally burdened, as such names may be displayed for them only as question marks ("??? ??"), squares ("□□□ □□"), replacement characters ("??? ??") or worse, nonsense or mojibake ("Ã!%ôs*"). If your name is usually written in a non-Latin script, please consider transliterating it to avoid confusion, and allow easier access to your talk page by typing your name in the search field or URL bar."
If you really can read that as bias.. then I'm afraid we're just going to have to disagree.
I guess I'll just have to be branded a "bigot against people named mathematical symbols". ;) _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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- Nessuna poesia prima di noi *
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
This case needs referendum on English Wikipedia,
There is no pratical way to do that.
On 12/23/06, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
This case needs referendum on English Wikipedia,
There is no pratical way to do that.
(Public) referendum is possible: just make a poll and then announce it on Watclist, Sitenotice, Main Page and other relevant pages.
Guys, girls, people (and objects) who are neither,
We will not go anywhere if we keep shouting "RACISM!!!!! DIEDIEDIE" back and forth. I am dead serious about this.
If you want to get anywhere, we must discuss objectively and address the issues like mature ladies and gentlemen.
Pros: - Less of a technical issue on English Wikipedia for those who don't have the ability (or permission) to install new fonts - Allows people of the community to identify people with a name they can understand, as opposed to using what they will just see as squiggly lines.
Being able to fight vandalism was a pro, but then technical fixes came along that prohibited mixing different writing scripts.
Cons: - Does not allow people to use the name they really want. - SUL issues: with all sorts of different usernames, it'll be hard to have a -single- user login when you have to have multiple because of script requirements.
I've stated this many times -- I like the idea of system transliteration for each wiki. Or at least a way to have an identity that's different from the username you log in with, so you can have a uniform username but you can be identified with what will be considered a comprehendable name.
What other remedies can you suggest?
Serious discussion starts now.
On 12/22/06, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/23/06, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
This case needs referendum on English Wikipedia,
There is no pratical way to do that.
(Public) referendum is possible: just make a poll and then announce it on Watclist, Sitenotice, Main Page and other relevant pages. _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On 12/23/06, James Hare messedrocker@gmail.com wrote:
Pros:
- Less of a technical issue on English Wikipedia for those who don't have
the ability (or permission) to install new fonts
This may be solved like TeX: if you don't have a font, you may choose to see images.
- Allows people of the community to identify people with a name they can
understand, as opposed to using what they will just see as squiggly lines.
The primary goal of Wikipedia is to make content, not to identify people with a name that can be understandable. I don't see a reason why it is so hard and/or so scary to click on some Chinese characters.
Being able to fight vandalism was a pro, but then technical fixes came along that prohibited mixing different writing scripts.
Vandalism is not related to script and I may imagine a lot of very hard vandalisms without any usage of letters other then A, B and C (capital, of course).
I've stated this many times -- I like the idea of system transliteration for each wiki. Or at least a way to have an identity that's different from the username you log in with, so you can have a uniform username but you can be identified with what will be considered a comprehendable name.
As I mentioned, transliteration doesn't work because some languages require *transcription* and/or *translation*. For example, even your name may be compltetely transliterated in Serbian (Јамес), it is completely irregular and your name *has to be* trancribed (into Џејмс).
* * *
However, I think that the story about non-Latin characters in user names is not supported by majority of English Wikipedia community, as well as we should check it. If it is not supported, story and wasting time is over; if it supports, we should think then what to do next.
Milos Rancic wrote:
As I mentioned, transliteration doesn't work because some languages
require *transcription* and/or *translation*. For example, even your name may be compltetely transliterated in Serbian (Јамес), it is completely irregular and your name *has to be* trancribed (into Џејмс).
If an individual prefers to use the transliteraed form for his own name that should be his choice without any "has to be" about it.
Ec
Hoi, At issue is that some insist on a solution where transliteration is forced upon others or the same is true with reducing people to numbers, you just have to be reduced to a number because of convenience sake. There is another solution that is rejected by some because "it can be gamed", this is without any knowledge of how it will be implemented. Thanks, GerardM
On 12/26/06, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
Milos Rancic wrote:
As I mentioned, transliteration doesn't work because some languages
require *transcription* and/or *translation*. For example, even your name may be compltetely transliterated in Serbian (Јамес), it is completely irregular and your name *has to be* trancribed (into Џејмс).
If an individual prefers to use the transliteraed form for his own name that should be his choice without any "has to be" about it.
Ec
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Hoi, You have not being paying attention. It has been indicated that compulsory transliteration is culturally not acceptable for many people. Also the suggestion that there has been no serious discussion up to now makes things worse. It has been indicated by people who are seriously involved in the Wikimedia Foundation that the reluctance, even denial how serious this issue is perceived from outside the English language Wikipedia is such that big words have been used to describe this outrage. This project has already lost a lot of face. The reversal by Gregory made inadvertently make Aphaia loose face.
From my perspective, the POV of the English language Wikipedia is seriously out of kilter and the room for "serious discussion" is diminishing. I do not get the impression that the arguments are heard / understood / taken seriously. I can envision that this will be an issue for the board. It is not necessarily something where the English language Wikipedia community should have it their own way.
Thanks, GerardM
James Hare schreef:
Guys, girls, people (and objects) who are neither,
We will not go anywhere if we keep shouting "RACISM!!!!! DIEDIEDIE" back and forth. I am dead serious about this.
If you want to get anywhere, we must discuss objectively and address the issues like mature ladies and gentlemen.
Pros:
- Less of a technical issue on English Wikipedia for those who don't have
the ability (or permission) to install new fonts
- Allows people of the community to identify people with a name they can
understand, as opposed to using what they will just see as squiggly lines.
Being able to fight vandalism was a pro, but then technical fixes came along that prohibited mixing different writing scripts.
Cons:
- Does not allow people to use the name they really want.
- SUL issues: with all sorts of different usernames, it'll be hard to have a
-single- user login when you have to have multiple because of script requirements.
I've stated this many times -- I like the idea of system transliteration for each wiki. Or at least a way to have an identity that's different from the username you log in with, so you can have a uniform username but you can be identified with what will be considered a comprehendable name.
What other remedies can you suggest?
Serious discussion starts now.
On 12/22/06, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/23/06, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
This case needs referendum on English Wikipedia,
There is no pratical way to do that.
(Public) referendum is possible: just make a poll and then announce it on Watclist, Sitenotice, Main Page and other relevant pages.
On 12/22/06, James Hare messedrocker@gmail.com wrote:
Pros:
- Less of a technical issue on English Wikipedia for those who don't have
the ability (or permission) to install new fonts
- Allows people of the community to identify people with a name they can
understand, as opposed to using what they will just see as squiggly lines.
[snip]
Cons:
- Does not allow people to use the name they really want.
- SUL issues: with all sorts of different usernames, it'll be hard to have
a -single- user login when you have to have multiple because of script requirements.
I've stated this many times -- I like the idea of system transliteration for each wiki. Or at least a way to have an identity that's different from the username you log in with, so you can have a uniform username but you can be identified with what will be considered a comprehendable name.
Personally, I'm torn. With the utmost respect to all involved in the discussion, I would find it incredibly difficult to relate to usernames in scripts that I absolutely cannot recognize (just as an example, I can't reliably tell the difference between two names in Arabic script, much less type them out in the course of a conversation). I can also understand the anger and frustration of those who have been blocked, and I certainly don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.
It seems to be a "catch-22" -- the two widely proposed options both have negative consequences. System transliteration, of some sort, is starting to look better, from where I'm sitting. Perhaps allow the system to make a "best guess," which the user can then modify, if they so choose, much like our current signatures system?
I think we need to find a "middle road," if at all possible. System transliteration seems to be the only such proposal -- if anybody else has got any ideas, now's the time.
Just a thought, -Luna
On 23/12/06, Luna lunasantin@gmail.com wrote:
I think we need to find a "middle road," if at all possible. System transliteration seems to be the only such proposal -- if anybody else has got any ideas, now's the time.
Which is more useful on a given wiki:
a) System transliteration into the script(s) of that wiki (which will apparently lead to tremendous offence to people not even using the wiki); b) Optionally append a user-ID number to the non-local script name, and have this user-ID work for blocks, log-checking, etc. (will apparently offend people who want to be "????????" rather than a number) c) Disallow both the above and require the usernames to be displayed in a script unreadable to the native speakers on that wiki (which will lead to near-automatic blocking as happens now, because you KNOW the vandals will exploit it big time)
- d.
On 12/23/06, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
Which is more useful on a given wiki:
a) System transliteration into the script(s) of that wiki (which will apparently lead to tremendous offence to people not even using the wiki); b) Optionally append a user-ID number to the non-local script name, and have this user-ID work for blocks, log-checking, etc. (will apparently offend people who want to be "????????" rather than a number) c) Disallow both the above and require the usernames to be displayed in a script unreadable to the native speakers on that wiki (which will lead to near-automatic blocking as happens now, because you KNOW the vandals will exploit it big time)
As you've illustrated, there's no perfect solution. =\ I'm not even sure which of those *I* would be okay with, and I very much doubt I can speak for everybody here. I'm still hoping somebody will have a brilliant idea that saves us all.
Here's hoping.
-Luna
David Gerard schreef:
On 23/12/06, Luna lunasantin@gmail.com wrote:
I think we need to find a "middle road," if at all possible. System transliteration seems to be the only such proposal -- if anybody else has got any ideas, now's the time.
Which is more useful on a given wiki:
a) System transliteration into the script(s) of that wiki (which will apparently lead to tremendous offence to people not even using the wiki); b) Optionally append a user-ID number to the non-local script name, and have this user-ID work for blocks, log-checking, etc. (will apparently offend people who want to be "????????" rather than a number) c) Disallow both the above and require the usernames to be displayed in a script unreadable to the native speakers on that wiki (which will lead to near-automatic blocking as happens now, because you KNOW the vandals will exploit it big time)
- d.
Hoi, Your question negates the issue at hand. It is therefore only describes a part of the problem. The problem is that you refuse to address the issue by only talking in terms of English language Wikipedia.
Never mind .. http://www.omegawiki.org/Expression:%D9%85%DB%8C%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AF_%D9%85%D8...
Thanks, GerardM
On 12/23/06, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Your question negates the issue at hand. It is therefore only describes a part of the problem. The problem is that you refuse to address the issue by only talking in terms of English language Wikipedia.
http://www.omegawiki.org/Expression:%D9%85%DB%8C%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AF_%D9%85%D8...
I'm not sure if I understand, sorry -- I don't see how that thread was " en.wikipedia only," but it's possible that I'm just missing it. I've only done any significant editing at en.wikipedia and simple.wikipedia, unfortunately. Having experience at more of them would probably help me to broaden my horizons.
As for the WiktionaryZ/OmegaWiki link, is that automated, or is that all set up by hand? I'm not too familiar with it.
-Luna
Don't worry, I haven't been ignoring you, Milos. I do think there is another issue to address: transcription -- when it comes to such projects where it's required. For those wikis that will be fine with automatic transliteration, that is okay, but we need a solution for wikis like Serbian Wikipedia that need to do transcription over transliteration.
On 12/23/06, Luna lunasantin@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/23/06, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Your question negates the issue at hand. It is therefore only describes a part of the problem. The problem is that you refuse to address the issue by only talking in terms of English language Wikipedia.
http://www.omegawiki.org/Expression:%D9%85%DB%8C%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AF_%D9%85%D8...
I'm not sure if I understand, sorry -- I don't see how that thread was " en.wikipedia only," but it's possible that I'm just missing it. I've only done any significant editing at en.wikipedia and simple.wikipedia, unfortunately. Having experience at more of them would probably help me to broaden my horizons.
As for the WiktionaryZ/OmegaWiki link, is that automated, or is that all set up by hand? I'm not too familiar with it.
-Luna _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
And why not?
On 12/23/06, James Hare messedrocker@gmail.com wrote:
Don't worry, I haven't been ignoring you, Milos. I do think there is another issue to address: transcription -- when it comes to such projects where it's required. For those wikis that will be fine with automatic transliteration, that is okay, but we need a solution for wikis like Serbian Wikipedia that need to do transcription over transliteration.
On 12/23/06, Luna lunasantin@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/23/06, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Your question negates the issue at hand. It is therefore only
describes
a part of the problem. The problem is that you refuse to address the issue by only talking in terms of English language Wikipedia.
http://www.omegawiki.org/Expression:%D9%85%DB%8C%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AF_%D9%85%D8...
I'm not sure if I understand, sorry -- I don't see how that thread was "
en.wikipedia only," but it's possible that I'm just missing it. I've only done any significant editing at en.wikipedia and simple.wikipedia, unfortunately. Having experience at more of them would probably help me to broaden my horizons.
As for the WiktionaryZ/OmegaWiki link, is that automated, or is that all set up by hand? I'm not too familiar with it.
-Luna _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On 23/12/06, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
David Gerard schreef:
Which is more useful on a given wiki: a) System transliteration into the script(s) of that wiki (which will apparently lead to tremendous offence to people not even using the wiki); b) Optionally append a user-ID number to the non-local script name, and have this user-ID work for blocks, log-checking, etc. (will apparently offend people who want to be "????????" rather than a number) c) Disallow both the above and require the usernames to be displayed in a script unreadable to the native speakers on that wiki (which will lead to near-automatic blocking as happens now, because you KNOW the vandals will exploit it big time)
Your question negates the issue at hand. It is therefore only describes a part of the problem. The problem is that you refuse to address the issue by only talking in terms of English language Wikipedia.
Erm, the effects of your particular plans for SUL affect the largest and most publicly prominent wiki on Wikimedia. In the above paragraph you appear to be deliberately ignoring that there will be problems and that your plans, as outlined in your posts throughout this thread, will in fact make the problems worse - with publicly visible and media-unfriendly effect in increased vandalism - rather than going any way at all to solve them.
Put it this way: ultimately, you have to convince en:wp admins to administer the wiki they're admins on the way that you want them to. So far you've (a) signally failed to do so (b) failed to show any interest in doing so.
You *seem* to be assuming that the Foundation will tell them what to do and they'll just have to fall into line or something. But it doesn't work like that.
- d.
On 12/23/06, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
On 23/12/06, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
David Gerard schreef:
Which is more useful on a given wiki: a) System transliteration into the script(s) of that wiki (which will apparently lead to tremendous offence to people not even using the wiki); b) Optionally append a user-ID number to the non-local script name, and have this user-ID work for blocks, log-checking, etc. (will apparently offend people who want to be "????????" rather than a number) c) Disallow both the above and require the usernames to be displayed in a script unreadable to the native speakers on that wiki (which will lead to near-automatic blocking as happens now, because you KNOW the vandals will exploit it big time)
Your question negates the issue at hand. It is therefore only describes a part of the problem. The problem is that you refuse to address the issue by only talking in terms of English language Wikipedia.
Erm, the effects of your particular plans for SUL affect the largest and most publicly prominent wiki on Wikimedia. In the above paragraph you appear to be deliberately ignoring that there will be problems and that your plans, as outlined in your posts throughout this thread, will in fact make the problems worse - with publicly visible and media-unfriendly effect in increased vandalism - rather than going any way at all to solve them.
You misrepresent what I have said .. you make a habit out of that .. What I have said is that the situation has improved a lot by the introduction of software that prevents mixed script user names. What I have said is that with SUL it will be easy to check if someone is a known good of another project. What I have said is that Anthere's proposal has merit. All things that you choose to ignore.
You also ignore that the current policy is considered to be discriminatory. This has been pointed out by others. When you check the article on discrimination on the English language Wikipedia, you will find the following: Language discrimination
People are sometimes subjected to different treatment because their preferred language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language is associated with a particular group, class or category. Commonly, the preferred language is just another attribute http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attribute of separate ethnic groups http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group. This discrimination is compounded by the failure to recognise that some of the proposals to remedy the situation are also inherently problematic. I perceive your position: the belief that the end justifies the means.
Put it this way: ultimately, you have to convince en:wp admins to
administer the wiki they're admins on the way that you want them to. So far you've (a) signally failed to do so (b) failed to show any interest in doing so.
You *seem* to be assuming that the Foundation will tell them what to do and they'll just have to fall into line or something. But it doesn't work like that.
- d.
From my perspective, you have failed miserably to convince that the position
you defend is reasonable. The situation as it existed when this policy was implemented has changed a lot for the better. You have been great at denying the arguments that I and others put forward.
Given that this policy is discriminatory, it is not unreasonable for the Wikimedia Foundation itself to consider the issue. As many people have expressed the need to change this policy, it is not even unreasonable to expect the English language Wikipedia to change it themselves. I would say that this would be the preferred option.
Thanks, GerardM
On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/23/06, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
This case needs referendum on English Wikipedia,
There is no pratical way to do that.
(Public) referendum is possible: just make a poll and then announce it on Watclist, Sitenotice, Main Page and other relevant pages.
So you agree it is imposible?
Adding notices about policy chnages to any of those places is not viewed as acceptable on en.
Whatever. If you think that it is OK that you take the whole responsibility for consequences for all en.wiki users outside of en.wiki -- it's fine for me, too.
On 12/23/06, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/23/06, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
This case needs referendum on English Wikipedia,
There is no pratical way to do that.
(Public) referendum is possible: just make a poll and then announce it on Watclist, Sitenotice, Main Page and other relevant pages.
So you agree it is imposible?
Adding notices about policy chnages to any of those places is not viewed as acceptable on en. -- geni _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
I came up with another idea, which would assume that SUL is in place... perhaps people could have multiple usernames linked to a single login for use on wikis with different scripts...
On my "Messedrocker" account, if I wanted to get involved on, for example, the Greek Wikipedia, I could set up another login linked to my account: Μεσσεδροcκερ. On Greek Wikipedia, I would set that as my name to be identified as, so while I still would be able to log in as Messedrocker, I would be identified on the wiki through recent changes, Special:Contributions, user page, etc. as Μεσσεδροcκερ. The Greek alternate handle would be automatically registered to prevent impersonation (and a slew of other technical problems).
On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
Whatever. If you think that it is OK that you take the whole responsibility for consequences for all en.wiki users outside of en.wiki -- it's fine for me, too.
On 12/23/06, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/23/06, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
This case needs referendum on English Wikipedia,
There is no pratical way to do that.
(Public) referendum is possible: just make a poll and then announce it on Watclist, Sitenotice, Main Page and other relevant pages.
So you agree it is imposible?
Adding notices about policy chnages to any of those places is not viewed as acceptable on en. -- geni _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
There are many ideas like this one that would solve the problem but are outside of the design of the system. Perhaps these kind of ideas should sent through wikitech-l first before everyone talks about them here. I know the attaching og differnet names was not technically possible in SUL back in October because I specifically asked after it was brought up at the talk page.
The same thing goes for the thread on automatic transliteration. This does not exist for all fonts. It is very much not possible as a global soulution, although it could be a recommendation where it is possible. What can we do with the existing situation, or else with an easy amount of deveploment? I don't see the point in arguing whether it acceptable or not to adopt a technically immpossible solution.
Birgitte SB
--- James Hare messedrocker@gmail.com wrote:
I came up with another idea, which would assume that SUL is in place... perhaps people could have multiple usernames linked to a single login for use on wikis with different scripts...
On my "Messedrocker" account, if I wanted to get involved on, for example, the Greek Wikipedia, I could set up another login linked to my account: Ìåóóåäñïcêåñ. On Greek Wikipedia, I would set that as my name to be identified as, so while I still would be able to log in as Messedrocker, I would be identified on the wiki through recent changes, Special:Contributions, user page, etc. as Ìåóóåäñïcêåñ. The Greek alternate handle would be automatically registered to prevent impersonation (and a slew of other technical problems).
On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
Whatever. If you think that it is OK that you take
the whole
responsibility for consequences for all en.wiki
users outside of
en.wiki -- it's fine for me, too.
On 12/23/06, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com
wrote:
On 12/23/06, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic
millosh@gmail.com wrote:
This case needs referendum on English
Wikipedia,
There is no pratical way to do that.
(Public) referendum is possible: just make a
poll and then announce it
on Watclist, Sitenotice, Main Page and other
relevant pages.
So you agree it is imposible?
Adding notices about policy chnages to any of
those places is not
viewed as acceptable on en.
geni _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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On 23/12/06, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
There are many ideas like this one that would solve the problem but are outside of the design of the system. Perhaps these kind of ideas should sent through wikitech-l first before everyone talks about them here. I know the attaching og differnet names was not technically possible in SUL back in October because I specifically asked after it was brought up at the talk page.
Well, Brion is watching this thread and waiting for us all to stop trying to kill each other ...
- d.
David Gerard wrote:
On 23/12/06, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
Well, Brion is watching this thread and waiting for us all to stop trying to kill each other ...
- d.
He isn't the only one. This seems to be much ado about nothing, other than perhaps some indivudal over-zealous admins.
Here is hoping this thread dies a quick death soon. Please make that a Christmas present to the Wikimedia Community!
There are other topics to spend bandwidth on, and this one has a particularly low S/N
Well, I had already made this suggestion previously, but it was in the context of renaming users, but I'll make it again, as it can also help out with this monumental mess:
Why don't we write the "home wiki" of a user in the global login database?
Originally, I had suggested it to be a way to stop a rouge bureaucrat in the Siberian Wikipedia (just picking one off the top of my head) from renaming my account in the global database, and by default, from renaming my account in every Wikimedia project. However, by exposing the home wiki of a user, perhaps in Special:Contributions and after every diff link (perhaps so it looks like $user ($wiki) (contribs | block)), an English Wikipedia admin can see whether the user created his account in the Japanese Wikipedia, and ask a Japanese-speaking admin to tell us whether the user has an objectionable username or not.
I hope I don't get flamed for suggesting this, but it's something I just came up with.
Titoxd.
-----Original Message----- From: foundation-l-bounces@wikimedia.org [mailto:foundation-l-bounces@wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Robert Scott Horning Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 10:57 AM To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Throwing some data onto the flamefest fire (was: English Wikipedia ethnocentric policy affects other communities)
David Gerard wrote:
On 23/12/06, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
Well, Brion is watching this thread and waiting for us all to stop trying to kill each other ...
- d.
He isn't the only one. This seems to be much ado about nothing, other than perhaps some indivudal over-zealous admins.
Here is hoping this thread dies a quick death soon. Please make that a Christmas present to the Wikimedia Community!
There are other topics to spend bandwidth on, and this one has a particularly low S/N
On 23/12/06, Titoxd@Wikimedia titoxd.wikimedia@gmail.com wrote:
Well, I had already made this suggestion previously, but it was in the context of renaming users, but I'll make it again, as it can also help out with this monumental mess:
Why don't we write the "home wiki" of a user in the global login database?
Originally, I had suggested it to be a way to stop a rouge bureaucrat in the Siberian Wikipedia (just picking one off the top of my head) from renaming my account in the global database, and by default, from renaming my account in every Wikimedia project. However, by exposing the home wiki of a user, perhaps in Special:Contributions and after every diff link (perhaps so it looks like $user ($wiki) (contribs | block)), an English Wikipedia admin can see whether the user created his account in the Japanese Wikipedia, and ask a Japanese-speaking admin to tell us whether the user has an objectionable username or not.
I hope I don't get flamed for suggesting this, but it's something I just came up with.
Titoxd.
-----Original Message----- From: foundation-l-bounces@wikimedia.org [mailto:foundation-l-bounces@wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Robert Scott Horning Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 10:57 AM To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Throwing some data onto the flamefest fire (was: English Wikipedia ethnocentric policy affects other communities)
David Gerard wrote:
On 23/12/06, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
Well, Brion is watching this thread and waiting for us all to stop trying to kill each other ...
- d.
He isn't the only one. This seems to be much ado about nothing, other than perhaps some indivudal over-zealous admins.
Here is hoping this thread dies a quick death soon. Please make that a Christmas present to the Wikimedia Community!
There are other topics to spend bandwidth on, and this one has a particularly low S/N
-- Robert Scott Horning
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On 23/12/06, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
On 23/12/06, Titoxd@Wikimedia titoxd.wikimedia@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, clicked wrong button.
- d.
Titoxd@Wikimedia ha scritto:
...However, by exposing the home wiki of a user, perhaps in Special:Contributions and after every diff link (perhaps so it looks like $user ($wiki) (contribs | block)), an English Wikipedia admin can see whether the user created his account in the Japanese Wikipedia, and ask a Japanese-speaking admin to tell us whether the user has an objectionable username or not.
It sounds to me a very promising idea. And rather technically simple to implement (I suppose). +1.
G.
Original thread title: "English Wikipedia ethnocentric policy [...]" Your suggestion: "a Christmas present to the Wikimedia Community"
[[Irony]]
Robert Scott Horning wrote:
David Gerard wrote:
On 23/12/06, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
Well, Brion is watching this thread and waiting for us all to stop trying to kill each other ...
- d.
He isn't the only one. This seems to be much ado about nothing, other than perhaps some indivudal over-zealous admins.
Here is hoping this thread dies a quick death soon. Please make that a Christmas present to the Wikimedia Community!
There are other topics to spend bandwidth on, and this one has a particularly low S/N
On 12/23/06, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
Whatever.
That is not a valid counter argument
If you think that it is OK that you take the whole responsibility for consequences for all en.wiki users outside of en.wiki -- it's fine for me, too.
For the most part what happens outside the various en wikis and commons is not my concern unless they do something really silly.
On 12/22/06, Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com wrote:
I regret to post my previous mail. You English Wikipedians shall be cursed of disclimination.
I have told to the Japanese community you lifted up that fool ethnocentric and discliminative policy. I would like to add some editors hadn't believed Engilsh Wikipedia did enforce so a discliminative policy. You made me a liar. Well, it is not a big deal, but still the fact remains you are racists.
Aphaia, I am very sorry that you feel this way. But I do not think this post is very fair.
Here are a few things I see, on the whole thread.
1. No one is interested in blocking anyone because of beliefs about ethnicity.
It is a problem for administrators on any wiki to handle usernames they cannot read or type. Reasonable people can disagree about whether the problem justifies enwiki's current ways of dealing with it. And reasonable people *do* disagree, which is why this thread has gone on for so long and why there is so much argument about it. But it is not about racism.
2. It is currently very difficult for users on any wiki, not just English, to interact with users who do not have a username in the script of that wiki's language.
If you cannot read or type someone's username, it is hard to talk to them, hard to tell people apart, hard to search for their contributions, and many other things. In addition to the trouble talking to real users, vandals know that it is difficult, and because of this, they like to use this extra difficulty to cause trouble. And I don't expect users on wikis where the language is not in Latin script to be able to read a Latin script name, either.
3. Whether or not the policy is right, it doesn't excuse being rude to anybody.
If anyone has been blocked with an uncivil message, or has not been asked politely about changing their username, that administrator is acting badly. But that is a fault of the person, not of the policy, and that should stop no matter what else happens.
4. Everyone would like a good solution to this.
If there were currently a solution that allowed editors to keep their preferred names on every wiki, but allowed the users of every wiki to interact with them without too much difficulty, everyone would be happy. No one here wants to make others upset for no reason.
5. Solving this is difficult, and currently there is no fix that makes everyone entirely happy.
There are many attempts to deal with it that make people unhappy, and just about every different attempted fix or work-around makes a *different* group of people unhappy.
6. Making the argument personal is not helping anyone get the solutions they want.
There are a lot of people who are coming at this problem in good faith, even if not everyone agrees with what they are doing. There are a lot of people who have decided not to participate in this thread because they do not want to be attacked or flamed. And we lose the input of people who do want to help, but who either now feel like they are not wanted or who do not want to get into an argument in the first place.
7. Taking arguments personally is only going to make you miserable.
No one is participating here just because they want to make anyone else feel bad or look foolish. It's not a personal argument, and if you feel like it is personal then perhaps it is time to step back and take a break, go outside and relax and then come back. (If everyone did that, there would not be so many messages to read, either.)
*
I would love a solution that makes everyone happy. I think there are possibilities for solutions that will make it easier for everyone to be happy. But we do not have them yet, and so it is still a real problem with many different sides to it.
I am sorry that you feel that you are being made to look like a fool, or that you believe this is being done to be hurtful. But it is not fair to make remarks such as this, or such as have been made by many others at many other points in the thread, when everyone here is coming at the problem in good faith. Even if you disagree with them.
Effe iets anders posted earlier asking everyone to step back and not take things personally, to recognize that reasonable people who do not mean harm can disagree. I agree, and I have written at more length than he has, but wanted to say more completely what I saw. I do not see anyone here who has the intention of harming anyone, and I think the thread would be much better and more productive if we could all assume this to be true.
-Kat
Dear Ms Walsh, and other fellow editors
On 12/23/06, Kat Walsh mindspillage@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/22/06, Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com wrote: Aphaia, I am very sorry that you feel this way. But I do not think this post is very fair.
At this point I have dirrerent point from you. Also I would like to say now some of you have been show no interest of my dignity. I sometimes said being addressed with family name without honorific is a serious offence to Japanese, specially married women. Some of you prefer to ignore my request and prefer to address me in such a way. Because you like it. And you think it sensible, friendly and so on.
Having a westernized username was my compromise. Once I used my surname as my username and found it was hard to cease such rudenss toward me and my lineage. But now I realize such compromise makes nothing fruitful and only indulge you Westerners. I have been embarassed to be addressing my surname, Herr Erik Moeller and other people I think I said you sometimes but you decide to continue embarassing with your rudeness.
I find here the similar thing - you may try to be civil and friendly, but your civility means to place a block and tell the victims to change their username. One user stated he didn't prefer since he used it on over forty wikis but you English admins only repeat "change your name". I find here no civility nor frindliness. I find here only condecension and arrogance.
Here are a few things I see, on the whole thread.
- No one is interested in blocking anyone because of beliefs about ethnicity.
No, even when they use their real name, you blocked them. You disrespect their ethnicity and force them to .
It is a problem for administrators on any wiki to handle usernames they cannot read or type. Reasonable people can disagree about whether the problem justifies enwiki's current ways of dealing with it. And reasonable people *do* disagree, which is why this thread has gone on for so long and why there is so much argument about it. But it is not about racism.
- It is currently very difficult for users on any wiki, not just
English, to interact with users who do not have a username in the script of that wiki's language.
If you cannot read or type someone's username, it is hard to talk to them, hard to tell people apart, hard to search for their contributions, and many other things. In addition to the trouble talking to real users, vandals know that it is difficult, and because of this, they like to use this extra difficulty to cause trouble. And I don't expect users on wikis where the language is not in Latin script to be able to read a Latin script name, either.
- Whether or not the policy is right, it doesn't excuse being rude to anybody.
If anyone has been blocked with an uncivil message, or has not been asked politely about changing their username, that administrator is acting badly. But that is a fault of the person, not of the policy, and that should stop no matter what else happens.
- Everyone would like a good solution to this.
If there were currently a solution that allowed editors to keep their preferred names on every wiki, but allowed the users of every wiki to interact with them without too much difficulty, everyone would be happy. No one here wants to make others upset for no reason.
- Solving this is difficult, and currently there is no fix that makes
everyone entirely happy.
There are many attempts to deal with it that make people unhappy, and just about every different attempted fix or work-around makes a *different* group of people unhappy.
- Making the argument personal is not helping anyone get the
solutions they want.
There are a lot of people who are coming at this problem in good faith, even if not everyone agrees with what they are doing. There are a lot of people who have decided not to participate in this thread because they do not want to be attacked or flamed. And we lose the input of people who do want to help, but who either now feel like they are not wanted or who do not want to get into an argument in the first place.
- Taking arguments personally is only going to make you miserable.
No one is participating here just because they want to make anyone else feel bad or look foolish. It's not a personal argument, and if you feel like it is personal then perhaps it is time to step back and take a break, go outside and relax and then come back. (If everyone did that, there would not be so many messages to read, either.)
I would love a solution that makes everyone happy. I think there are possibilities for solutions that will make it easier for everyone to be happy. But we do not have them yet, and so it is still a real problem with many different sides to it.
I am sorry that you feel that you are being made to look like a fool, or that you believe this is being done to be hurtful. But it is not fair to make remarks such as this, or such as have been made by many others at many other points in the thread, when everyone here is coming at the problem in good faith. Even if you disagree with them.
Effe iets anders posted earlier asking everyone to step back and not take things personally, to recognize that reasonable people who do not mean harm can disagree. I agree, and I have written at more length than he has, but wanted to say more completely what I saw. I do not see anyone here who has the intention of harming anyone, and I think the thread would be much better and more productive if we could all assume this to be true.
-Kat
-- Wikimedia needs you: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mindspillage | (G)AIM:Mindspillage mindspillage or mind|wandering on irc.freenode.net | email for phone
Hoi, http://www.omegawiki.org/Expression:%E3%83%A1%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%82%AF%E3%... :) Thanks, Gerard
Aphaia schreef:
Dear Ms Walsh, and other fellow editors
On 12/23/06, Kat Walsh mindspillage@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/22/06, Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com wrote: Aphaia, I am very sorry that you feel this way. But I do not think this post is very fair.
At this point I have dirrerent point from you. Also I would like to say now some of you have been show no interest of my dignity. I sometimes said being addressed with family name without honorific is a serious offence to Japanese, specially married women. Some of you prefer to ignore my request and prefer to address me in such a way. Because you like it. And you think it sensible, friendly and so on.
Having a westernized username was my compromise. Once I used my surname as my username and found it was hard to cease such rudenss toward me and my lineage. But now I realize such compromise makes nothing fruitful and only indulge you Westerners. I have been embarassed to be addressing my surname, Herr Erik Moeller and other people I think I said you sometimes but you decide to continue embarassing with your rudeness.
I find here the similar thing - you may try to be civil and friendly, but your civility means to place a block and tell the victims to change their username. One user stated he didn't prefer since he used it on over forty wikis but you English admins only repeat "change your name". I find here no civility nor frindliness. I find here only condecension and arrogance.
Here are a few things I see, on the whole thread.
- No one is interested in blocking anyone because of beliefs about ethnicity.
No, even when they use their real name, you blocked them. You disrespect their ethnicity and force them to .
It is a problem for administrators on any wiki to handle usernames they cannot read or type. Reasonable people can disagree about whether the problem justifies enwiki's current ways of dealing with it. And reasonable people *do* disagree, which is why this thread has gone on for so long and why there is so much argument about it. But it is not about racism.
- It is currently very difficult for users on any wiki, not just
English, to interact with users who do not have a username in the script of that wiki's language.
If you cannot read or type someone's username, it is hard to talk to them, hard to tell people apart, hard to search for their contributions, and many other things. In addition to the trouble talking to real users, vandals know that it is difficult, and because of this, they like to use this extra difficulty to cause trouble. And I don't expect users on wikis where the language is not in Latin script to be able to read a Latin script name, either.
- Whether or not the policy is right, it doesn't excuse being rude to anybody.
If anyone has been blocked with an uncivil message, or has not been asked politely about changing their username, that administrator is acting badly. But that is a fault of the person, not of the policy, and that should stop no matter what else happens.
- Everyone would like a good solution to this.
If there were currently a solution that allowed editors to keep their preferred names on every wiki, but allowed the users of every wiki to interact with them without too much difficulty, everyone would be happy. No one here wants to make others upset for no reason.
- Solving this is difficult, and currently there is no fix that makes
everyone entirely happy.
There are many attempts to deal with it that make people unhappy, and just about every different attempted fix or work-around makes a *different* group of people unhappy.
- Making the argument personal is not helping anyone get the
solutions they want.
There are a lot of people who are coming at this problem in good faith, even if not everyone agrees with what they are doing. There are a lot of people who have decided not to participate in this thread because they do not want to be attacked or flamed. And we lose the input of people who do want to help, but who either now feel like they are not wanted or who do not want to get into an argument in the first place.
- Taking arguments personally is only going to make you miserable.
No one is participating here just because they want to make anyone else feel bad or look foolish. It's not a personal argument, and if you feel like it is personal then perhaps it is time to step back and take a break, go outside and relax and then come back. (If everyone did that, there would not be so many messages to read, either.)
I would love a solution that makes everyone happy. I think there are possibilities for solutions that will make it easier for everyone to be happy. But we do not have them yet, and so it is still a real problem with many different sides to it.
I am sorry that you feel that you are being made to look like a fool, or that you believe this is being done to be hurtful. But it is not fair to make remarks such as this, or such as have been made by many others at many other points in the thread, when everyone here is coming at the problem in good faith. Even if you disagree with them.
Effe iets anders posted earlier asking everyone to step back and not take things personally, to recognize that reasonable people who do not mean harm can disagree. I agree, and I have written at more length than he has, but wanted to say more completely what I saw. I do not see anyone here who has the intention of harming anyone, and I think the thread would be much better and more productive if we could all assume this to be true.
-Kat
-- Wikimedia needs you: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mindspillage | (G)AIM:Mindspillage mindspillage or mind|wandering on irc.freenode.net | email for phone
--- Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/22/06, Luiz Augusto lugusto@gmail.com wrote:
Gianluigi is right to assert the issue for the
Italian Wikipedia: this isn't
a auto-block, first the users talks). But sorry
Gregory, English Wikipedia
really make auto-blocks until no first talk.
There are over 400,000 usernames on enwiki with non-ascii characters in them. Only 3,394 usernames with non-ascii characters have been blocked on enwiki.
Can you generate a list of non-blocked non-latin usernames that are active editors? That would show more clearly what current practice is. The non-blocked names you count above could have never made an edit to draw attention to themselves or else they may have been inactive since before this policy of blocking latin usernames started. To find non-latin usernames that have been blocked by this policy you can look through
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Temporary_Wikipedian_user...
Birgitte SB
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On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
Can you generate a list of non-blocked non-latin usernames that are active editors?
Yes
[snip]
of blocking latin usernames started. To find non-latin usernames that have been blocked by this policy you can look through
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Temporary_Wikipedian_user...
The first one I checked... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E8%97%A4%E4%BA%95%E7%8C%...
is blocked for vandalism on jawiki:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%E7%89%B9%E5%88%A5:Log&type=bl...
:)
You might also enjoy the list of blocked users with non-ascii characters in their names at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/nonalphausers/blocked
--- Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
Can you generate a list of non-blocked non-latin usernames that are active editors?
Yes
[snip]
of blocking latin usernames started. To find non-latin usernames that have been blocked by this policy you can look through
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Temporary_Wikipedian_user...
The first one I checked...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E8%97%A4%E4%BA%95%E7%8C%...
is blocked for vandalism on jawiki:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%E7%89%B9%E5%88%A5:Log&type=bl...
:)
You might also enjoy the list of blocked users with non-ascii characters in their names at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/nonalphausers/blocked
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
I think we have a different idea of what active is. Two edits that are six months old isn't active to me. It appears from looking at the logs, the blocking of non-Latin username became a regular practice in early October. The non-latin reasoning was specifically added to {{UsernameBlocked}} on Oct. 16. I think if we have non-latin editors that are active since September (to give a little room for error) that would really mean something. I also think three edits should have been enough to be noticed on RC and blocked if this is the standard practice. Therefore most non-latin editors with three edits since Sept. should be blocked if my claim is true. I don't think the existance un-blocked non-latin editors who were only active before Sept is significant. But if you believe a different time-period would be siginificant please explain.
Birgitte SB
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On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
I think we have a different idea of what active is.
No we dont, you're making the mistake of assuming my reply was to the message you just sent rather than the one you sent earlier.
The non-latin reasoning was specifically added to {{UsernameBlocked}} on Oct. 16.
The only policy related to non-latin names has been around for nearly a year.
[snip]
But if you believe a different time-period would be siginificant please explain.
I'm building the list you requested right now. It takes some time to scan through millions of edits.
--- Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
I think we have a different idea of what active
is.
No we dont, you're making the mistake of assuming my reply was to the message you just sent rather than the one you sent earlier.
The non-latin reasoning was specifically added to {{UsernameBlocked}} on Oct. 16.
The only policy related to non-latin names has been around for nearly a year.
[snip]
But if you believe a different time-period would be
siginificant
please explain.
I'm building the list you requested right now. It takes some time to scan through millions of edits. _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Sorry about the confusion on messages. I realise the policy had mentioned non-latin usernames earlier but it appears that the name changes were not always enforced with blocks. This practice seems to have become standard in October.
Birgitte SB
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On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
Can you generate a list of non-blocked non-latin usernames that are active editors?
You wanted 20 with at least three edits between September and November who are not blocked?
Okay:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E9%96%93%E4%B9%85%E9%83%... http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E7%99%BE%E5%AE%B6%E5%A7%... http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E6%B1%9F%E5%B7%9D%E5%B0%... http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E3%81%BE%E3%81%AC http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E2%88%9A2 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E2%82%ACpa http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%D0%AA%D1%8B%D1%8C http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%D0%93%D0%B5%D0%BE%D1%80%... http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%... http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%D0%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%92%... http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%CE%A6 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%CE%A0rate http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%CE%9A%CE%91%CE%9B%CE%9B%... http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%CE%88%CF%81%CE%B5%CE%B2%... http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Macanese%E9%A6%AC%E4%BA%A... http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/HOM%D0%AF http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%C2%A3 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/S3%2A%C6%92wN%C3%A2er5 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%21%22%C2%A3%24 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/J%E2%80%A2A%E2%80%A2K http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
So thats 20, there are more.. but I pulled these out of a list of non-ascii names by hand... I also tried to avoid names which were mostly latin characters but used a non-latin for garnish.
Overall there are fewer then I expected.. but there are not all that many in the blocked list that don't look like vandals... so.. ::shrugs::
--- Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/22/06, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
Can you generate a list of non-blocked non-latin usernames that are active editors?
You wanted 20 with at least three edits between September and November who are not blocked?
Okay:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E9%96%93%E4%B9%85%E9%83%...
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E7%99%BE%E5%AE%B6%E5%A7%...
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E6%B1%9F%E5%B7%9D%E5%B0%...
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E3%81%BE%E3%81%AC
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E2%88%9A2
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%E2%82%ACpa
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%D0%AA%D1%8B%D1%8C
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%D0%93%D0%B5%D0%BE%D1%80%...
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%...
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%D0%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%92%...
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%CE%A6
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%CE%A0rate
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%CE%9A%CE%91%CE%9B%CE%9B%...
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%CE%88%CF%81%CE%B5%CE%B2%...
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Macanese%E9%A6%AC%E4%BA%A...
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/HOM%D0%AF
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%C2%A3
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/S3%2A%C6%92wN%C3%A2er5
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/%21%22%C2%A3%24
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/J%E2%80%A2A%E2%80%A2K
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&pag...
So thats 20, there are more.. but I pulled these out of a list of non-ascii names by hand... I also tried to avoid names which were mostly latin characters but used a non-latin for garnish.
Thank you for doing this. This shows it is quite possible to contribute to en.WP with a non-latin username without problems. About half of these have active talk pages which is more than I expected. Clearly the blocks are coming from some admins, while the general en.WP comunity is not going around reporting all non-latin usernames for blocks. I will concede that these blocks are not a en.WP wide practice. I am going to leave a message to the admins who have been setting these blocks suggesting that they start taking them through RfC's as it is disputed that non-latin usernames should be blocked. The responses to such RfC's will tell us more.
Overall there are fewer then I expected.. but there are not all that many in the blocked list that don't look like vandals... so.. ::shrugs::
Please be fair here. Which of my 20 looked like vandals? How many non-vandals do you need to see to acknowledge that people are being blocked just for a non-latin username and not vandalism? How many do you need to see that are blocked with no edits to agree that automatic blocks are happening to non-trivial degree? There were plently left on my list when I stopped at twenty.
Birgitte SB
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On 12/23/06, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
Overall there are fewer then I expected.. but there are not all that many in the blocked list that don't look like vandals... so.. ::shrugs::
Please be fair here. Which of my 20 looked like vandals? How many non-vandals do you need to see to acknowledge that people are being blocked just for a non-latin username and not vandalism? How many do you need to see that are blocked with no edits to agree that automatic blocks are happening to non-trivial degree? There were plently left on my list when I stopped at twenty.
I'm not claiming that there aren't valid users who have been blocked. You showed quite clearly that there are... (although there have been some vandals there too, some of the 'valid people' are blocked for vandalism on their home projects! :) )
I was only saying that "There are fewer active users with non-latin names than I expected" but then balencing it with the fact that "The overwealming majority of the non-latin blocks are not to good users being blocked for using their names". I'm not denying that some improvement wouldn't be good.
How about starting to unblock the unjustly blocked ones. That would be a great gesture.
Waerth
On 12/23/06, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
Overall there are fewer then I expected.. but there are not all that many in the blocked list that don't look like vandals... so.. ::shrugs::
Please be fair here. Which of my 20 looked like vandals? How many non-vandals do you need to see to acknowledge that people are being blocked just for a non-latin username and not vandalism? How many do you need to see that are blocked with no edits to agree that automatic blocks are happening to non-trivial degree? There were plently left on my list when I stopped at twenty.
I'm not claiming that there aren't valid users who have been blocked. You showed quite clearly that there are... (although there have been some vandals there too, some of the 'valid people' are blocked for vandalism on their home projects! :) )
I was only saying that "There are fewer active users with non-latin names than I expected" but then balencing it with the fact that "The overwealming majority of the non-latin blocks are not to good users being blocked for using their names". I'm not denying that some improvement wouldn't be good. _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On 12/23/06, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
How about starting to unblock the unjustly blocked ones. That would be a great gesture.
I invited you to identify them.. :)
That'd be a hell of a task. There's a lot of them.
On 12/23/06, Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/23/06, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
How about starting to unblock the unjustly blocked ones. That would be a great gesture.
I invited you to identify them.. :) _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Hoi, But it is a noble task. It rights a wrong. Thanks, GerardM
On 12/23/06, James Hare messedrocker@gmail.com wrote:
That'd be a hell of a task. There's a lot of them.
On 12/23/06, Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/23/06, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
How about starting to unblock the unjustly blocked ones. That would be
a
great gesture.
I invited you to identify them.. :) _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Gregory Maxwell wrote:
On 12/23/06, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
How about starting to unblock the unjustly blocked ones. That would be a great gesture.
I invited you to identify them.. :)
I believe Birgitte has done that ;) In one of the earlier emails in one of the threads someone identified some of my "weak points" like childishness and so on ;) I added some to that like rude and stubborn.
I will add one more weak point of myself. I can be extremely lazy if I do not believe in something anymore or are not motivated for something anymore :)
Also I do not spend any more time on any of the wiki's, if not absolutely necassary. I only try to stear things that I feel are against the principles of the wikimedia foundation asI still believe in the initial principles.
I have lost all of my believe in community processes and consensus to reach the goals though, I feel we are on a dead-end road with that which will collapse somewhere in the short/medium term future .... but that is another story alltogether.
Waerth
--- Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/23/06, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
How about starting to unblock the unjustly blocked
ones. That would be a
great gesture.
I invited you to identify them.. :)
I would suggest that any userpages with interwiki links are a good place to start
Here are some:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%E5%BD%92%E5%8E%BB%E5%85%88%E7%94%9F
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%E9%BE%98
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%E9%9B%B7
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%E3%82%A6%E3%83%83%E3%81%A7%E3%82%84%E3%82...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%E3%83%84%E3%83%B3%E3%83%85%E3%81%8F%E3%82...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%E4%BB%A3%E8%A8%80%E4%BA%BA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%E5%B0%B8%E7%BD%A9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%D7%A8%D7%A0%D7%93%D7%95%D7%9D Blocking admin removed interwiki link because he was "unable to determine what it is" http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3A%D7%A8%D7%A0%D7%93%D7%95%D7...
Those are from a category of user pages that get deleted after one month without edits so it is hardly comprehensive. If you could give the link to the list of block non-latin users I will look for more.
Birgitte SB
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--- Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
--- Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/23/06, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
How about starting to unblock the unjustly
blocked
ones. That would be a
great gesture.
I invited you to identify them.. :)
I would suggest that any userpages with interwiki links are a good place to start
Here are some:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%E5%BD%92%E5%8E%BB%E5%85%88%E7%94%9F
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%E3%82%A6%E3%83%83%E3%81%A7%E3%82%84%E3%82...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%E3%83%84%E3%83%B3%E3%83%85%E3%81%8F%E3%82...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%E4%BB%A3%E8%A8%80%E4%BA%BA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%D7%A8%D7%A0%D7%93%D7%95%D7%9D
Blocking admin removed interwiki link because he was "unable to determine what it is"
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3A%D7%A8%D7%A0%D7%93%D7%95%D7...
Those are from a category of user pages that get deleted after one month without edits so it is hardly comprehensive. If you could give the link to the list of block non-latin users I will look for more.
Birgitte SB
Actually thinking about this if the user pages are really deleted after one month of no talk page edits it will take someone with administrator rights to go through them. Can anyone verify if these user pages are being deleted or not?
Birgitte SB
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Here's an editable version of the same. If you want to add to this list, please only include users with main namespace edits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sj/usernames
SJ
On Sat, 23 Dec 2006, Birgitte SB wrote:
--- Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/23/06, Walter van Kalken walter@vankalken.net wrote:
How about starting to unblock the unjustly blocked
ones. That would be a
great gesture.
I invited you to identify them.. :)
I would suggest that any userpages with interwiki links are a good place to start
Here are some:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%E5%BD%92%E5%8E%BB%E5%85%88%E7%94%9F
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%E9%BE%98
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%E9%9B%B7
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%E3%82%A6%E3%83%83%E3%81%A7%E3%82%84%E3%82...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%E3%83%84%E3%83%B3%E3%83%85%E3%81%8F%E3%82...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%E4%BB%A3%E8%A8%80%E4%BA%BA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%E5%B0%B8%E7%BD%A9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%D7%A8%D7%A0%D7%93%D7%95%D7%9D Blocking admin removed interwiki link because he was "unable to determine what it is" http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3A%D7%A8%D7%A0%D7%93%D7%95%D7...
Those are from a category of user pages that get deleted after one month without edits so it is hardly comprehensive. If you could give the link to the list of block non-latin users I will look for more.
Birgitte SB
Gregory Maxwell a écrit :
On 12/22/06, Gianluigi Gamba gigamb@tin.it wrote:
It's an invitation to prefer Latin script in order to make the search easier, not a strict prohibition. Usernames written entirely with non-Latin script are not blocked automatically.
Although it might be hard to tell from the accusations in this thread: They are not blocked automatically on enwiki either.
This was shown several times to be false.
Yann
On 12/22/06, Yann Forget yann@forget-me.net wrote:
This was shown several times to be false.
Where has it been shown that they are being automatically blocked?
Or do we have a misunderstanding about the word automatically perhaps?
Gregory Maxwell wrote:
On 12/22/06, Yann Forget yann@forget-me.net wrote:
This was shown several times to be false.
Where has it been shown that they are being automatically blocked?
Or do we have a misunderstanding about the word automatically perhaps?
There have been several non-latin characters accounts blocked even before the user had a chance to write something. I know which evidence you need. And denying it won't make the problem disappears.
Regards,
Yann
On 12/23/06, Yann Forget yann@forget-me.net wrote:
There have been several non-latin characters accounts blocked even before the user had a chance to write something. I know which evidence you need. And denying it won't make the problem disappears.
In fact, there have been many hundeds blocked before making an edit. But the overwealming majority were cleary made either to be cute or to cause trouble.
When you say automatic within the context of things that happen on Wikipedia I usualy think of automatic in the "Capable of operating without external control or intervention" sense (per Wiktionary). The blocking is not happening without control or intervention, as evidenced by the fact that there are quite a few non-latin names which are editing and are not blocked.
There have been blocks of accounts using real names with non-latin characters, but I think that should be avoided in favor of interaction like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%8A%D1%80_%D0%9F...
On 12/23/06, Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/22/06, Gianluigi Gamba gigamb@tin.it wrote: Although it might be hard to tell from the accusations in this thread: They are not blocked automatically on enwiki either.
No they are. Or were hopefully. "Only 3,394"? I cannot believe what I am hearing now.
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