In practice what we (Wikimedians) see from WMF communications programmes is widely spread announcements and sometimes an anonymous survey, again widely spread. This is literally not 'communication', it is 'broadcasting'.
For communication to be meaningful, your message must not only be sent to the right stakeholders, but it is essential for the communication to be two-way. This is why I find it especially frustrating to see generic posts from the WMF sent by bots with no named person being the contact point. At least with most emails sent to email lists, these are from a named person and community members can respond to it, often with later replies from a WMF employee.
Fae
On 20 Mar 2017 09:51, "Peter Southwood" peter.southwood@telkomsa.net wrote:
Might it be useful to analyse the community before trying to get communication out of them? Then efforts can be directed to be more representative of the various parts. OK, I understand that to analyse them it needs some communication. But that is a specific and directed communication. Work out what might be useful to know and ask everyone. Put a survey link on talk page for logged in users, and a banner for IP users. We get this anyway for fundraising. Before going full scale, test the survey on a small group, to find out what is wrong with it, fix the worst problems, and be sure to allow comments and feedback. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Lodewijk Sent: Monday, 20 March 2017 11:04 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations
Hi Pine,
it's always easier of course to tell other people what they have to change, which is why I'm asking the opposite question too :) What can we change, on our end, to make communications easier for the WMF, for community members that want to reach out, for chapters and other affiliates. All these are having a hard time to get useful input from the community.
There seem very few generally accepted approaches to that: - using some mailing list, or some kind of forum that serves a part of the community you think would be most relevant (such as this mailing list, the wikitech mailing list etc). - Going all out and doing a full scale consultation/RfC with banners and everything. Gives you lots of comments. - Doing a broad and translated approach through village pumps etc - gives you a broad reach over languages, but within those languages still reaches a specific part of the community.
Those methods are typically either very expensive, or not very effective. And I'm only talking about getting input here, not even about 'informing' everyone.
So what can we, as a community, change to facilitate better exchange of ideas, experiences and provide input?
Best Lodewijk
PS: I apologize to the people who read this kind of email for the n'th time, it's not the first time I talk about this, I guess :)
2017-03-20 7:40 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
Attempting to summon Chris Schilling over here from the other thread. (:
I think that some kind of analysis about optimal use of consultations and surveys would be beneficial, and I'd welcome seeing something like that in the next Annual Plan. Perhaps there might even be a consultation or survey about consultations or surveys, which I know sounds ironic but may be helpful in figuring out how much is too much or too little, timing, locations, etc.
Information management is a big deal. We have watchlists, email, social media channels, Echo, and lots of other tools, but even so -- or perhaps because -- there are so many channels, it's easy to drown. I imagine that holds true for both staff and community members, and I'd welcome some initiatives to improve the situation. Perhaps someone will have some ideas that they can submit to IdeaLab.
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Hoi, Would you be so kind and answer the question Lodewijk asked. We are all aware that things are not perfect but what is it that can be done to improve it? Thanks, GerardM
On 20 March 2017 at 10:58, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
In practice what we (Wikimedians) see from WMF communications programmes is widely spread announcements and sometimes an anonymous survey, again widely spread. This is literally not 'communication', it is 'broadcasting'.
For communication to be meaningful, your message must not only be sent to the right stakeholders, but it is essential for the communication to be two-way. This is why I find it especially frustrating to see generic posts from the WMF sent by bots with no named person being the contact point. At least with most emails sent to email lists, these are from a named person and community members can respond to it, often with later replies from a WMF employee.
Fae
On 20 Mar 2017 09:51, "Peter Southwood" peter.southwood@telkomsa.net wrote:
Might it be useful to analyse the community before trying to get communication out of them? Then efforts can be directed to be more representative of the various parts. OK, I understand that to analyse them it needs some communication. But that is a specific and directed communication. Work out what might be useful to know and ask everyone. Put a survey link on talk page for logged in users, and a banner for IP users. We get this anyway for fundraising. Before going full scale, test the survey on a small group, to find out what is wrong with it, fix the worst problems, and be sure to allow comments and feedback. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Lodewijk Sent: Monday, 20 March 2017 11:04 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations
Hi Pine,
it's always easier of course to tell other people what they have to change, which is why I'm asking the opposite question too :) What can we change, on our end, to make communications easier for the WMF, for community members that want to reach out, for chapters and other affiliates. All these are having a hard time to get useful input from the community.
There seem very few generally accepted approaches to that:
- using some mailing list, or some kind of forum that serves a part of the
community you think would be most relevant (such as this mailing list, the wikitech mailing list etc).
- Going all out and doing a full scale consultation/RfC with banners and
everything. Gives you lots of comments.
- Doing a broad and translated approach through village pumps etc - gives
you a broad reach over languages, but within those languages still reaches a specific part of the community.
Those methods are typically either very expensive, or not very effective. And I'm only talking about getting input here, not even about 'informing' everyone.
So what can we, as a community, change to facilitate better exchange of ideas, experiences and provide input?
Best Lodewijk
PS: I apologize to the people who read this kind of email for the n'th time, it's not the first time I talk about this, I guess :)
2017-03-20 7:40 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
Attempting to summon Chris Schilling over here from the other thread. (:
I think that some kind of analysis about optimal use of consultations and surveys would be beneficial, and I'd welcome seeing something like that in the next Annual Plan. Perhaps there might even be a consultation or survey about consultations or surveys, which I know sounds ironic but may be helpful in figuring out how much is too much or too little, timing, locations, etc.
Information management is a big deal. We have watchlists, email, social media channels, Echo, and lots of other tools, but even so -- or perhaps because -- there are so many channels, it's easy to drown. I imagine that holds true for both staff and community members, and I'd welcome some initiatives to improve the situation. Perhaps someone will have some ideas that they can submit to IdeaLab.
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.8007 / Virus Database: 4756/14149 - Release Date: 03/20/17
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I did, it's not my job to teach Communications theory to the WMF or all affiliates by writing 50 words in an email. There are plenty of books for that. Most define what Communication is, and how to measure its success, perfectly well.
Fae
On 20 Mar 2017 10:24, "Gerard Meijssen" gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Would you be so kind and answer the question Lodewijk asked. We are all aware that things are not perfect but what is it that can be done to improve it? Thanks, GerardM
On 20 March 2017 at 10:58, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
In practice what we (Wikimedians) see from WMF communications programmes
is
widely spread announcements and sometimes an anonymous survey, again
widely
spread. This is literally not 'communication', it is 'broadcasting'.
For communication to be meaningful, your message must not only be sent to the right stakeholders, but it is essential for the communication to be two-way. This is why I find it especially frustrating to see generic posts from the WMF sent by bots with no named person being the contact point. At least with most emails sent to email lists, these are from a named person and community members can respond to it, often with later replies from a WMF employee.
Fae
On 20 Mar 2017 09:51, "Peter Southwood" peter.southwood@telkomsa.net wrote:
Might it be useful to analyse the community before trying to get communication out of them? Then efforts can be directed to be more representative of the various parts. OK, I understand that to analyse them it needs some communication. But that is a specific and directed communication. Work out what might be useful to know and ask everyone.
Put
a survey link on talk page for logged in users, and a banner for IP
users.
We get this anyway for fundraising. Before going full scale, test the survey on a small group, to find out what is wrong with it, fix the worst problems, and be sure to allow comments and feedback. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Lodewijk Sent: Monday, 20 March 2017 11:04 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations
Hi Pine,
it's always easier of course to tell other people what they have to
change,
which is why I'm asking the opposite question too :) What can we change,
on
our end, to make communications easier for the WMF, for community members that want to reach out, for chapters and other affiliates. All these are having a hard time to get useful input from the community.
There seem very few generally accepted approaches to that:
- using some mailing list, or some kind of forum that serves a part of the
community you think would be most relevant (such as this mailing list, the wikitech mailing list etc).
- Going all out and doing a full scale consultation/RfC with banners and
everything. Gives you lots of comments.
- Doing a broad and translated approach through village pumps etc - gives
you a broad reach over languages, but within those languages still reaches a specific part of the community.
Those methods are typically either very expensive, or not very effective. And I'm only talking about getting input here, not even about 'informing' everyone.
So what can we, as a community, change to facilitate better exchange of ideas, experiences and provide input?
Best Lodewijk
PS: I apologize to the people who read this kind of email for the n'th time, it's not the first time I talk about this, I guess :)
2017-03-20 7:40 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
Attempting to summon Chris Schilling over here from the other thread. (:
I think that some kind of analysis about optimal use of consultations and surveys would be beneficial, and I'd welcome seeing something like that in the next Annual Plan. Perhaps there might even be a consultation or survey about consultations or surveys, which I know sounds ironic but may be helpful in figuring out how much is too much or too little, timing, locations, etc.
Information management is a big deal. We have watchlists, email, social media channels, Echo, and lots of other tools, but even so -- or perhaps because -- there are so many channels, it's easy to drown. I imagine that holds true for both staff and community members, and I'd welcome some initiatives to improve the situation. Perhaps someone will have some ideas that they can submit to IdeaLab.
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.8007 / Virus Database: 4756/14149 - Release Date: 03/20/17
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Thanks Fae.
Aside from what the initiator of the communication can do (in this case, the WMF/affiliates), what could the community do to make their life easier? It sounds to me like you're answering that with 'nothing'. Fair enough, thanks for the response. Anyone has some ideas what might be improvements on the community side of the communications?
Best, Lodewijk
2017-03-20 11:35 GMT+01:00 Fæ faewik@gmail.com:
I did, it's not my job to teach Communications theory to the WMF or all affiliates by writing 50 words in an email. There are plenty of books for that. Most define what Communication is, and how to measure its success, perfectly well.
Fae
On 20 Mar 2017 10:24, "Gerard Meijssen" gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Would you be so kind and answer the question Lodewijk asked. We are all aware that things are not perfect but what is it that can be done to improve it? Thanks, GerardM
On 20 March 2017 at 10:58, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
In practice what we (Wikimedians) see from WMF communications programmes
is
widely spread announcements and sometimes an anonymous survey, again
widely
spread. This is literally not 'communication', it is 'broadcasting'.
For communication to be meaningful, your message must not only be sent to the right stakeholders, but it is essential for the communication to be two-way. This is why I find it especially frustrating to see generic
posts
from the WMF sent by bots with no named person being the contact point.
At
least with most emails sent to email lists, these are from a named person and community members can respond to it, often with later replies from a WMF employee.
Fae
On 20 Mar 2017 09:51, "Peter Southwood" peter.southwood@telkomsa.net wrote:
Might it be useful to analyse the community before trying to get communication out of them? Then efforts can be directed to be more representative of the various parts. OK, I understand that to analyse
them
it needs some communication. But that is a specific and directed communication. Work out what might be useful to know and ask everyone.
Put
a survey link on talk page for logged in users, and a banner for IP
users.
We get this anyway for fundraising. Before going full scale, test the survey on a small group, to find out what is wrong with it, fix the worst problems, and be sure to allow comments and feedback. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Lodewijk Sent: Monday, 20 March 2017 11:04 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations
Hi Pine,
it's always easier of course to tell other people what they have to
change,
which is why I'm asking the opposite question too :) What can we change,
on
our end, to make communications easier for the WMF, for community members that want to reach out, for chapters and other affiliates. All these are having a hard time to get useful input from the community.
There seem very few generally accepted approaches to that:
- using some mailing list, or some kind of forum that serves a part of
the
community you think would be most relevant (such as this mailing list,
the
wikitech mailing list etc).
- Going all out and doing a full scale consultation/RfC with banners and
everything. Gives you lots of comments.
- Doing a broad and translated approach through village pumps etc - gives
you a broad reach over languages, but within those languages still
reaches
a specific part of the community.
Those methods are typically either very expensive, or not very effective. And I'm only talking about getting input here, not even about 'informing' everyone.
So what can we, as a community, change to facilitate better exchange of ideas, experiences and provide input?
Best Lodewijk
PS: I apologize to the people who read this kind of email for the n'th time, it's not the first time I talk about this, I guess :)
2017-03-20 7:40 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
Attempting to summon Chris Schilling over here from the other thread.
(:
I think that some kind of analysis about optimal use of consultations and surveys would be beneficial, and I'd welcome seeing something like that in the next Annual Plan. Perhaps there might even be a consultation or survey about consultations or surveys, which I know sounds ironic but may be helpful in figuring out how much is too much or too little, timing, locations, etc.
Information management is a big deal. We have watchlists, email, social media channels, Echo, and lots of other tools, but even so -- or perhaps because -- there are so many channels, it's easy to drown. I imagine that holds true for both staff and community members, and I'd welcome some initiatives to improve the situation. Perhaps someone will have some ideas that they can submit to IdeaLab.
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.8007 / Virus Database: 4756/14149 - Release Date:
03/20/17
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I'm hoping that one advancement which will help both WMF and the community will be the Newsletter extension. I'm hoping that will help cut down on the number of broadcast emails and centralnotice banners.
I'd like to see all WMF notifications for consultations and surveys scheduled for a single day each month, and have once-monthly reminder for the same. That should cut down on the deluge of notifications.
Agreed that WMF does a lot of broadcasting, and could spend more time investing in thoughtful conversations instead of mass-produced surveys and consultations. I'd like to see monthly IRC office hours for C-levels and WMF Board members.
I like Peter's idea of surveys including requests for feedback about the design of the surveys.
On the community end, I think what can be done may be wiki-specific. I'm most familiar with ENWP's wide range of project talk pages, and there are so many of them that watching all of them is unrealistic. That's just for a single project; many of us spread ourselves among multiple projects. When I wrote the *Signpost *Discussion Report back in the days when the *Signpost *was often a weekly publication, I made it be a summary of active RfCs in project-wide topics. If we could automate some kind of aggregation tool for creating summaries of active discussions and VP posts like was done in the Discussion Report, I think that would help with increasing efficiency. But that would be difficult to automate. Government organizations pay staff members and contractors to do that kind of work. I wouldn't want WMF to be summarizing community discussions for the community, but if funding can be found for that kind of communications support and if affiliates are willing to supervise it, I think that might be helpful.
(As a side note, I think that the *Signpost *and other community newsletters can be highly valuable, but getting people to volunteer to write them on a weekly basis is a problem. If I had the money to feel comfortable doing so and if legal liability issues could be worked out, I'd personally sponsor some funding for a small number of people to work on the *Signpost *-- including the Discussion Report -- as a part-time job.)
Pine
On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 3:46 AM, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
Thanks Fae.
Aside from what the initiator of the communication can do (in this case, the WMF/affiliates), what could the community do to make their life easier? It sounds to me like you're answering that with 'nothing'. Fair enough, thanks for the response. Anyone has some ideas what might be improvements on the community side of the communications?
Best, Lodewijk
2017-03-20 11:35 GMT+01:00 Fæ faewik@gmail.com:
I did, it's not my job to teach Communications theory to the WMF or all affiliates by writing 50 words in an email. There are plenty of books for that. Most define what Communication is, and how to measure its success, perfectly well.
Fae
On 20 Mar 2017 10:24, "Gerard Meijssen" gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
Hoi, Would you be so kind and answer the question Lodewijk asked. We are all aware that things are not perfect but what is it that can be done to improve it? Thanks, GerardM
On 20 March 2017 at 10:58, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
In practice what we (Wikimedians) see from WMF communications
programmes
is
widely spread announcements and sometimes an anonymous survey, again
widely
spread. This is literally not 'communication', it is 'broadcasting'.
For communication to be meaningful, your message must not only be sent
to
the right stakeholders, but it is essential for the communication to be two-way. This is why I find it especially frustrating to see generic
posts
from the WMF sent by bots with no named person being the contact point.
At
least with most emails sent to email lists, these are from a named
person
and community members can respond to it, often with later replies from
a
WMF employee.
Fae
On 20 Mar 2017 09:51, "Peter Southwood" peter.southwood@telkomsa.net wrote:
Might it be useful to analyse the community before trying to get communication out of them? Then efforts can be directed to be more representative of the various parts. OK, I understand that to analyse
them
it needs some communication. But that is a specific and directed communication. Work out what might be useful to know and ask everyone.
Put
a survey link on talk page for logged in users, and a banner for IP
users.
We get this anyway for fundraising. Before going full scale, test the survey on a small group, to find out what is wrong with it, fix the
worst
problems, and be sure to allow comments and feedback. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Lodewijk Sent: Monday, 20 March 2017 11:04 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Communicating plans and consultations
Hi Pine,
it's always easier of course to tell other people what they have to
change,
which is why I'm asking the opposite question too :) What can we
change,
on
our end, to make communications easier for the WMF, for community
members
that want to reach out, for chapters and other affiliates. All these
are
having a hard time to get useful input from the community.
There seem very few generally accepted approaches to that:
- using some mailing list, or some kind of forum that serves a part of
the
community you think would be most relevant (such as this mailing list,
the
wikitech mailing list etc).
- Going all out and doing a full scale consultation/RfC with banners
and
everything. Gives you lots of comments.
- Doing a broad and translated approach through village pumps etc -
gives
you a broad reach over languages, but within those languages still
reaches
a specific part of the community.
Those methods are typically either very expensive, or not very
effective.
And I'm only talking about getting input here, not even about
'informing'
everyone.
So what can we, as a community, change to facilitate better exchange of ideas, experiences and provide input?
Best Lodewijk
PS: I apologize to the people who read this kind of email for the n'th time, it's not the first time I talk about this, I guess :)
2017-03-20 7:40 GMT+01:00 Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com:
Attempting to summon Chris Schilling over here from the other thread.
(:
I think that some kind of analysis about optimal use of consultations and surveys would be beneficial, and I'd welcome seeing something
like
that in the next Annual Plan. Perhaps there might even be a consultation or survey about consultations or surveys, which I know sounds ironic but may be helpful in figuring out how much is too much or too little, timing, locations, etc.
Information management is a big deal. We have watchlists, email, social media channels, Echo, and lots of other tools, but even so -- or perhaps because -- there are so many channels, it's easy to drown. I imagine that holds true for both staff and community members, and I'd welcome some initiatives to improve the situation. Perhaps
someone
will have some ideas that they can submit to IdeaLab.
Pine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
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