One of the areas that I would like to see the foundation putting in money is for the running and maintenance of wanted orphan bots. Wanted in the sense that editors are using them or would if they were still running, and orphan in the sense that the original developer isn't around or available to run them/migrate them to the latest platform.
If we work on the premise that community funds should go for things that volunteers want to have happen but aren't volunteering to do, then this is a classic and uncontentious niche. Programmers like to write new code and solve new problems, but the person with the idea or who writes new code doesn't always have the time and motivation to keep maintaining and running that code, let alone creating slightly bespoke version for scores of our thousand wikis.
Now it may be that we are in an unusual situation that the migration from toolserver to labs has cost us a number of bots that would otherwise have continued for years. But there will always be demand to localise existing bots for wikis where they don't currently run, and in the long run all of our volunteer bot writers are likely to move on.
Employing a python programmer or two somewhere cheap like India or South America would not be a huge investment for the foundation, but it would be a valuable service to the community, and unlike mediawiki development this could be completely volunteer driven with wikimedians deciding which bots are worth maintaining and their relative priority.
Disclosure: whilst I'm not pitching for the money for this, I would be front of the queue to ask such a maintainer to take on bots that I used to use the results of and in at least one case which I designed.
Regards
Jonathan/WereSpielChequers
On 22 Feb 2015, at 11:42, wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
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Message: 3 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 17:39:31 -0800 From: Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Types of allowed projects for grant funding (renamed) Message-ID: CAEg6ZHmFQ-K8tksj==b-cx1aNKCc+wy1gCfK+0+pkis38uk5zA@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 4:19 PM, MZMcBride z@mzmcbride.com wrote:
Erik seems to be pushing toward a model that favors using OAuth and the MediaWiki API over "deep integration" that comes with a MediaWiki extension. He recently mentioned this here: https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/glamtools/2015-February/000343.html
He may be right that development for deployment to the Wikimedia Foundation cluster may not be the best approach for every project, but I think this view overlooks all the very real benefits that extension deployment includes.
I don't think one size fits all -- every case needs to be judged on its merits, though in the case of GLAMWikiToolset I am definitely arguing for considering separation from the MediaWiki codebase because it is so highly specialized. I also think we sometimes still have a tendency to underestimate the value of non-MediaWiki tools and apps, even though they've contributed millions of edits to Wikimedia wikis already (though to be fair, without Magnus Manske the tally would not be nearly as awesome).
Regarding the criteria for grantmaking, I think this initial blanket prohibition against all MediaWiki extension development is indeed something we ought to revisit. These grants can cover tens of thousands of dollars of paid work, so we shouldn't treat the review and integration burden lightly, and avoiding stalled projects that are going nowhere was a reason I advocated for this restriction to begin with. But as long as there is a good plan in place -- either not significantly dependent on WMF or with clear commitments negotiated upfront -- I do agree that the risks can be significantly mitigated.
Damon, Luis and members of their teams will need to weigh in on this, and will want to think through the implications for their respective areas, but it's a good conversation to have -- keeping in mind that Luis is just starting in his new role, so please give him at least a few days to get up to speed. ;-)
Erik
Erik Möller VP of Product & Strategy, Wikimedia Foundation
Message: 4 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 18:12:02 -0800 From: Luis Villa lvilla@wikimedia.org To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Types of allowed projects for grant funding (renamed) Message-ID: CAM2wSz6x5DQdLjNwjS3Va_SU57nUp0UhXLQ6zktAhEeY2t4SEg@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 5:39 PM, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
Damon, Luis and members of their teams will need to weigh in on this, and will want to think through the implications for their respective areas, but it's a good conversation to have -- keeping in mind that Luis is just starting in his new role, so please give him at least a few days to get up to speed. ;-)
Thanks for at least a few hours of cushion, Erik ;)
I'm a big believer in the power of/need for software tools, and at least philosophically I'm very open to funding software development outside the Foundation (though obviously there are lots of pragmatic difficulties - code review, etc.) So, yes, as part of our broader review of how we support communities and contributor growth, CE will look at funding code very seriously.
Luis
-- Luis Villa Sr. Director of Community Engagement Wikimedia Foundation
I am a dev and am willing to replace a tool when it dies. I have a fairly large infrastructure of code that makes it fairly easy
On Sunday, February 22, 2015, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
One of the areas that I would like to see the foundation putting in money is for the running and maintenance of wanted orphan bots. Wanted in the sense that editors are using them or would if they were still running, and orphan in the sense that the original developer isn't around or available to run them/migrate them to the latest platform.
If we work on the premise that community funds should go for things that volunteers want to have happen but aren't volunteering to do, then this is a classic and uncontentious niche. Programmers like to write new code and solve new problems, but the person with the idea or who writes new code doesn't always have the time and motivation to keep maintaining and running that code, let alone creating slightly bespoke version for scores of our thousand wikis.
Now it may be that we are in an unusual situation that the migration from toolserver to labs has cost us a number of bots that would otherwise have continued for years. But there will always be demand to localise existing bots for wikis where they don't currently run, and in the long run all of our volunteer bot writers are likely to move on.
Employing a python programmer or two somewhere cheap like India or South America would not be a huge investment for the foundation, but it would be a valuable service to the community, and unlike mediawiki development this could be completely volunteer driven with wikimedians deciding which bots are worth maintaining and their relative priority.
Disclosure: whilst I'm not pitching for the money for this, I would be front of the queue to ask such a maintainer to take on bots that I used to use the results of and in at least one case which I designed.
Regards
Jonathan/WereSpielChequers
On 22 Feb 2015, at 11:42, wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
javascript:; wrote:
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Message: 3 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 17:39:31 -0800 From: Erik Moeller <erik@wikimedia.org javascript:;> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Types of allowed projects for grant funding (renamed) Message-ID: <CAEg6ZHmFQ-K8tksj==b-cx1aNKCc+wy1gCfK+0+pkis38uk5zA@mail.gmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 4:19 PM, MZMcBride <z@mzmcbride.com
javascript:;> wrote:
Erik seems to be pushing toward a model that favors using OAuth and the MediaWiki API over "deep integration" that comes with a MediaWiki extension. He recently mentioned this here:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/glamtools/2015-February/000343.html
He may be right that development for deployment to the Wikimedia Foundation cluster may not be the best approach for every project, but I think this view overlooks all the very real benefits that extension deployment includes.
I don't think one size fits all -- every case needs to be judged on its merits, though in the case of GLAMWikiToolset I am definitely arguing for considering separation from the MediaWiki codebase because it is so highly specialized. I also think we sometimes still have a tendency to underestimate the value of non-MediaWiki tools and apps, even though they've contributed millions of edits to Wikimedia wikis already (though to be fair, without Magnus Manske the tally would not be nearly as awesome).
Regarding the criteria for grantmaking, I think this initial blanket prohibition against all MediaWiki extension development is indeed something we ought to revisit. These grants can cover tens of thousands of dollars of paid work, so we shouldn't treat the review and integration burden lightly, and avoiding stalled projects that are going nowhere was a reason I advocated for this restriction to begin with. But as long as there is a good plan in place -- either not significantly dependent on WMF or with clear commitments negotiated upfront -- I do agree that the risks can be significantly mitigated.
Damon, Luis and members of their teams will need to weigh in on this, and will want to think through the implications for their respective areas, but it's a good conversation to have -- keeping in mind that Luis is just starting in his new role, so please give him at least a few days to get up to speed. ;-)
Erik
Erik Möller VP of Product & Strategy, Wikimedia Foundation
Message: 4 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 18:12:02 -0800 From: Luis Villa <lvilla@wikimedia.org javascript:;> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Types of allowed projects for grant funding (renamed) Message-ID: <CAM2wSz6x5DQdLjNwjS3Va_SU57nUp0UhXLQ6zktAhEeY2t4SEg@mail.gmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 5:39 PM, Erik Moeller <erik@wikimedia.org
javascript:;> wrote:
Damon, Luis and members of their teams will need to weigh in on this, and will want to think through the implications for their respective areas, but it's a good conversation to have -- keeping in mind that Luis is just starting in his new role, so please give him at least a few days to get up to speed. ;-)
Thanks for at least a few hours of cushion, Erik ;)
I'm a big believer in the power of/need for software tools, and at least philosophically I'm very open to funding software development outside the Foundation (though obviously there are lots of pragmatic difficulties - code review, etc.) So, yes, as part of our broader review of how we
support
communities and contributor growth, CE will look at funding code very seriously.
Luis
-- Luis Villa Sr. Director of Community Engagement Wikimedia Foundation
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WereSpielChequers wrote:
One of the areas that I would like to see the foundation putting in money is for the running and maintenance of wanted orphan bots.
I think specific examples might help here. If we're talking about category renaming bots or talk page archiving bots, I wouldn't mind if they died. The key is having suitable replacements in place first, of course.
Employing a python programmer or two somewhere cheap like India or South America would not be a huge investment for the foundation, but it would be a valuable service to the community, and unlike mediawiki development this could be completely volunteer driven with wikimedians deciding which bots are worth maintaining and their relative priority.
Do you have a ballpark estimate of how much money we're talking about per year per programmer? I'm mostly just curious how it would compare to hiring someone in San Francisco, for example.
Was the Wikimedia Foundation intended to be a technology company? Is the current Wikimedia Foundation suited to be a technology company or would it be better off contracting out development? These are probably higher level questions, but they're inter-related with what we're discussing here.
But more to your point about hiring cheaper labor, we don't know if a popular tool means that the approach taken was the best or should be sustained. We ideally want scalable, sustainable, and secure tools. I'm pretty wary of the idea that we could easily outsource this work.
MZMcBride
Hi,
On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 10:04 PM, MZMcBride z@mzmcbride.com wrote:
WereSpielChequers wrote:
One of the areas that I would like to see the foundation putting in money is for the running and maintenance of wanted orphan bots.
I think specific examples might help here.
... and specific requests are welcome under https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/possible-tech-projects/, where they might be turned into project ideas for developer outreach programs or Individual Engagement Grants. You don't even need to formulate the perfect proposal. Just start drafting, and if the proposal generates interest it is likely that others will chime in and help polishing it. These tools exist here and now, and you might want to try them out.
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org