Hi Amir,
It isn't too late to ask about the utility of welcome messages, but be aware that there are reasons for their evolution over the last decade. Your email almost implied that this has been an unreviewed area for the last decade.
There was some research a few years ago that concluded that welcomed editors were more likely to stay, despite many welcomes being of the "welcome your article has been tagged for deletion" variety. If someone fancies digging further it would be good to compare welcomed and unwelcomed editors among the 75% of newbies who edit existing articles and also among the 25% or whatever is left of that who come here to create new articles.
I think that now would be a good time to develop tailored welcomes for mobile and V/E newbies. I'm conscious that the Welcome I usually use assumes that newbies who do good edits are using the classic editor and contributing with something bigger than a tablet. So sometimes I leave newbies unwelcomed rather than give them a potentially confusing welcome.
As for getting a welcome message from a wiki where I have visited but not edited, I consider that a privacy violation. We normally claim not to log anything about our readers, but if a logged in Wikimedian visits arwiki a log is created artificially by issuing them a welcome. It isn't a Privacy violation that especially irks me personally, but if we allow it we should change the global privacy statements accordingly.
Regards
Jonathan
On 30 Dec 2017, at 13:38, wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote: Message: 4 Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 10:29:34 +0200 From: "Amir E. Aharoni" amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki Message-ID: CACtNa8vKK+7tnLh=4VKBmvX4WOaHD3QvGc2N+Cui-br8VQg4sQ@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.
The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.
Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them? The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but if it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot actually automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of the template?
Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does it nicely.
To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's nevertheless an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked:
- How many people actually read these messages?
- Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them?
- Could some be removed? Could some be added?
- Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be reused
across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner?
- Is the talk page really a good place to do this?
- How useful is it for people for people who come from another language and
have an account auto-created?
And so on.
Welcome templates have been a part of our sites for well over a decade, but it's never too late to ask fundamental question about what purpose do they serve, and how could this purpose be served better.
Happy New Year :)
בתאריך 29 בדצמ׳ 2017 11:21, "John E
As I recall, communication with newcomers by templates was found to be a negative factor.
Jeblad
Den lør. 30. des. 2017, 16.58 skrev Jonathan Cardy < werespielchequers@gmail.com>:
Hi Amir,
It isn't too late to ask about the utility of welcome messages, but be aware that there are reasons for their evolution over the last decade. Your email almost implied that this has been an unreviewed area for the last decade.
There was some research a few years ago that concluded that welcomed editors were more likely to stay, despite many welcomes being of the "welcome your article has been tagged for deletion" variety. If someone fancies digging further it would be good to compare welcomed and unwelcomed editors among the 75% of newbies who edit existing articles and also among the 25% or whatever is left of that who come here to create new articles.
I think that now would be a good time to develop tailored welcomes for mobile and V/E newbies. I'm conscious that the Welcome I usually use assumes that newbies who do good edits are using the classic editor and contributing with something bigger than a tablet. So sometimes I leave newbies unwelcomed rather than give them a potentially confusing welcome.
As for getting a welcome message from a wiki where I have visited but not edited, I consider that a privacy violation. We normally claim not to log anything about our readers, but if a logged in Wikimedian visits arwiki a log is created artificially by issuing them a welcome. It isn't a Privacy violation that especially irks me personally, but if we allow it we should change the global privacy statements accordingly.
Regards
Jonathan
On 30 Dec 2017, at 13:38, wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org wrote: Message: 4 Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 10:29:34 +0200 From: "Amir E. Aharoni" amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki Message-ID: CACtNa8vKK+7tnLh=4VKBmvX4WOaHD3QvGc2N+Cui-br8VQg4sQ@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something.
The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets.
Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them? The intuitive answer is "to send a personal message to a new user", but
if
it's done by a bot, it's already not personal. What does the bot actually automate? The placement of a template? But what is the actual purpose of the template?
Is it to say "hello and welcome"? The notifications feature already does
it
nicely.
To send people a list of useful links? I heard many times that new users actually do find them useful, and it's a good thing. But it's
nevertheless
an anecdotal claim, and smarter questions should be asked:
- How many people actually read these messages?
- Are all the links useful? Do people actually click them?
- Could some be removed? Could some be added?
- Why is it different in every project? Could at least some parts be
reused
across languages in a robust and properly localizable manner?
- Is the talk page really a good place to do this?
- How useful is it for people for people who come from another language
and
have an account auto-created?
And so on.
Welcome templates have been a part of our sites for well over a decade,
but
it's never too late to ask fundamental question about what purpose do
they
serve, and how could this purpose be served better.
Happy New Year :)
בתאריך 29 בדצמ׳ 2017 11:21, "John E
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 8:08 AM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
As I recall, communication with newcomers by templates was found to be a negative factor.
The results from past research are Not easy to summarize, and definitely not that simple, because of all the varying factors in both the templates and the research projects. E.g. message-length/-linkcount/-tone/-formatting (all of which slowly change over the years), the reason/timing for receiving a welcome (account-creation, first-edit, random edit, time-after-event), whether anything else was communicated around the same time (e.g. additional warning templates) on the same page or elsewhere, whether the welcome was personalized at all, what username it was signed with (a human name in my language, a funny avatar name, a generic bot-name, etc), etc -- all of which can be different (subtly or significantly) at every project and every instance). Some relevant links include: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:New_editor_welcome_wishlist#Results... https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template_A/B_testing/Results#Welcome_message... https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Rhetoric_of_the_welcome_message but there are many more formal and informal attempts to understand and improve it all (from Enwiki's Teahouse initiatives, to all the scattered multilingual template_talk and wikiproject discussions (from Q6137590, to all the topic-specific wikiprojects)).
TL;DR: Onboarding is complicated. Many people are helped by welcome messages. Many welcome messages are (or were) imperfect (too long/dense/formal/informal/irrelevant/technical/etc). I do not know if there is any specific research that focuses purely on the timing (whether it is best to send at account-creation, after first-edit, after human-review of an edit, whilst the user is logged-in or offline, etc), but I agree it might be useful.
Here are some of the other research projects that look at welcome templates as one of the factors, but not the primary focus, https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:New_user_help_requests/Full_report https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Ignored_period_and_retention https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Framing_Support_for_Newcomers https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Alternative_lifecycles_of_new_users
Lastly, regarding the specific instance of Arwiki - it's better than nothing, because some people will Not edit until given some encouragement, and some people like to read the rules before they start something. - It would be good if the bot could distinguish between accounts-made-locally (i.e. likely to be able to read Arabic) vs accounts-attached-via-Single-User-Login (and to only send those latter accounts a welcome message, after they've made 1 edit locally). I don't know if that is currently possible or feasible.
Quiddity
What Quiddity said.
If we're talking about impact on (good faith) new editors, yes, it's complicated but the bulk of the evidence points to certain kinds of welcomes[1][2] being effective at driving retention (every little bit helps), and others having no effect at all, and maybe a few approaches actively turning some people off. Has something to do with the form of the welcome (giant walls of links are probably not very helpful, and may be intimidating), the purpose of the welcome (is this a general "hey there" or an invitation to read or participate in something that might be useful and/or engaging to the intended recipient?) and the timing of the welcome (new editors give up quickly; often the welcome or offer of support comes too late).
If we're talking about the impact on experienced editors who have never edited on that particular wiki... I've received these kinds of messages on wikis I haven't edited, but viewed while logged in. I don't see the problem here from a spam standpoint. Calling this harm may be a stretch?
However, I agree with Jonathan's argument that this may constitute a privacy violation—but if the welcome bot is pulling from a public log to send these welcomes (as it must be), then the potential privacy violation occurs regardless of whether a welcome is sent, and the fix, if deemed necessary, needs to happen upstream.
Regardless, has anyone asked Meno25 if they are willing and able to update the bot to distinguish between locally vs SUL-created accounts? Or offered to help do so? They have been willing to make changes https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Meno25#substituting_welcome_template_is_without_value in the past. It sounds like that would fix the issue that prompted this thread.
- Jonathan
1. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Teahouse_long_term_new_editor_reten... 2. Boreum Choi, Kira Alexander, Robert E. Kraut, and John M. Levine. 2010. Socialization tactics in wikipedia and their effects. In *Proceedings of the 2010 ACM conference on Computer supported cooperative work* (CSCW '10). ACM, New York, NY, USA, 107-116. DOI: https://doi.org/10.1145/1718918.1718940
On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 2:53 PM, quiddity pandiculation@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 8:08 AM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
As I recall, communication with newcomers by templates was found to be a negative factor.
The results from past research are Not easy to summarize, and definitely not that simple, because of all the varying factors in both the templates and the research projects. E.g. message-length/-linkcount/-tone/-formatting (all of which slowly change over the years), the reason/timing for receiving a welcome (account-creation, first-edit, random edit, time-after-event), whether anything else was communicated around the same time (e.g. additional warning templates) on the same page or elsewhere, whether the welcome was personalized at all, what username it was signed with (a human name in my language, a funny avatar name, a generic bot-name, etc), etc -- all of which can be different (subtly or significantly) at every project and every instance). Some relevant links include: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:New_editor_ welcome_wishlist#Results_and_discussion https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template_A/B_testing/ Results#Welcome_messages https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Rhetoric_of_the_welcome_message but there are many more formal and informal attempts to understand and improve it all (from Enwiki's Teahouse initiatives, to all the scattered multilingual template_talk and wikiproject discussions (from Q6137590, to all the topic-specific wikiprojects)).
TL;DR: Onboarding is complicated. Many people are helped by welcome messages. Many welcome messages are (or were) imperfect (too long/dense/formal/informal/irrelevant/technical/etc). I do not know if there is any specific research that focuses purely on the timing (whether it is best to send at account-creation, after first-edit, after human-review of an edit, whilst the user is logged-in or offline, etc), but I agree it might be useful.
Here are some of the other research projects that look at welcome templates as one of the factors, but not the primary focus, https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:New_user_help_ requests/Full_report https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Ignored_period_and_retention https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Framing_Support_for_Newcomers https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Alternative_ lifecycles_of_new_users
Lastly, regarding the specific instance of Arwiki
- it's better than nothing, because some people will Not edit until
given some encouragement, and some people like to read the rules before they start something.
- It would be good if the bot could distinguish between
accounts-made-locally (i.e. likely to be able to read Arabic) vs accounts-attached-via-Single-User-Login (and to only send those latter accounts a welcome message, after they've made 1 edit locally). I don't know if that is currently possible or feasible.
Quiddity
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