Hello,
tl;dr: https://lists-next.wikimedia.org is running mailman3. Please help us test the software before we upgrade the real mailing list server.
Kunal and I have been working on deploying the new mailman (version 3) to replace mailman2 serving https://lists.wikimedia.org and powering all of our mailing lists.
Mailman2 is a dinosaur that should have gone extinct years ago. Pretty old user interface (especially for admins and moderators), storing passwords in plain text, lack of any database (everything is file on disk), pretty old code, lack of ability to search in archives or send email from web interface, running on EOL python (python2), encoding issues with non-Latin languages, hard to redact archives, and the list goes on and on.
The new version has been developed/puppetized/tested in the Cloud and is now ready for proper testing! Give it a try: https://lists-next.wikimedia.org. We have created some mailing lists you can join and can test. If you want to test the experience as a list administrator/moderator, we can give those permissions out as well.
WARNING: All data on the lists-next server will be deleted after the test period is over.
We will also need help updating documentation on wikis and elsewhere.
If you find any bugs/issues (yay!), please file a ticket in the “Wikimedia-Mailing-lists” Phabricator project and we’ll check it out.
In the coming days/weeks will also import some public mailing lists from the old version to the new version to check archive size, search index size, and other aspects. There are other TODOs left as well like monitoring, logging, anti-abuse, etc.
Slowly and after testing (hopefully soon), we expect to deploy this on lists.wikimedia.org and mailing lists one by one or in batches can be upgraded to the 21st century.
The overall task tracking this project is T52864 https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T52864 and a big thank you people who are helping this move forward.
Regards,
Kunal and Amir
Hello Amir, hello all,
Fantastic news !
Quick side question : whatever will happen to the passwords that we kept on post-it notes sticked to our monitors for lack of frequent use or good enough cognitive skills ? Joke aside, will there be a site-wide password purge once v3 is deployed, or shall we keep on using our old passwords, with the currently plaintext passwords stored in files simply hashed and stored in the new database ?
Whatever the case, fantastic news :-)
Roger / Alphos
Le 25 mars 2021 à 08:58, Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com a écrit :
Hello,
tl;dr: https://lists-next.wikimedia.org https://lists-next.wikimedia.org/ is running mailman3. Please help us test the software before we upgrade the real mailing list server.
Kunal and I have been working on deploying the new mailman (version 3) to replace mailman2 serving https://lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/ and powering all of our mailing lists.
Mailman2 is a dinosaur that should have gone extinct years ago. Pretty old user interface (especially for admins and moderators), storing passwords in plain text, lack of any database (everything is file on disk), pretty old code, lack of ability to search in archives or send email from web interface, running on EOL python (python2), encoding issues with non-Latin languages, hard to redact archives, and the list goes on and on.
The new version has been developed/puppetized/tested in the Cloud and is now ready for proper testing! Give it a try: https://lists-next.wikimedia.org https://lists-next.wikimedia.org/. We have created some mailing lists you can join and can test. If you want to test the experience as a list administrator/moderator, we can give those permissions out as well.
WARNING: All data on the lists-next server will be deleted after the test period is over.
We will also need help updating documentation on wikis and elsewhere.
If you find any bugs/issues (yay!), please file a ticket in the “Wikimedia-Mailing-lists” Phabricator project and we’ll check it out.
In the coming days/weeks will also import some public mailing lists from the old version to the new version to check archive size, search index size, and other aspects. There are other TODOs left as well like monitoring, logging, anti-abuse, etc.
Slowly and after testing (hopefully soon), we expect to deploy this on lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/ and mailing lists one by one or in batches can be upgraded to the 21st century.
The overall task tracking this project is T52864 https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T52864 and a big thank you people who are helping this move forward.
Regards, Kunal and Amir
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Seemingly small but nevertheless terrific news.
On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:08 AM Alphos OGame alphos.ogame@gmail.com wrote:
Hello Amir, hello all,
Fantastic news !
Quick side question : whatever will happen to the passwords that we kept on post-it notes sticked to our monitors for lack of frequent use or good enough cognitive skills ? Joke aside, will there be a site-wide password purge once v3 is deployed, or shall we keep on using our old passwords, with the currently plaintext passwords stored in files simply hashed and stored in the new database ?
Whatever the case, fantastic news :-)
Roger / Alphos
Le 25 mars 2021 à 08:58, Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com a écrit :
Hello,
tl;dr: https://lists-next.wikimedia.org is running mailman3. Please help us test the software before we upgrade the real mailing list server.
Kunal and I have been working on deploying the new mailman (version 3) to replace mailman2 serving https://lists.wikimedia.org and powering all of our mailing lists.
Mailman2 is a dinosaur that should have gone extinct years ago. Pretty old user interface (especially for admins and moderators), storing passwords in plain text, lack of any database (everything is file on disk), pretty old code, lack of ability to search in archives or send email from web interface, running on EOL python (python2), encoding issues with non-Latin languages, hard to redact archives, and the list goes on and on.
The new version has been developed/puppetized/tested in the Cloud and is now ready for proper testing! Give it a try: https://lists-next.wikimedia.org. We have created some mailing lists you can join and can test. If you want to test the experience as a list administrator/moderator, we can give those permissions out as well.
WARNING: All data on the lists-next server will be deleted after the test period is over.
We will also need help updating documentation on wikis and elsewhere.
If you find any bugs/issues (yay!), please file a ticket in the “Wikimedia-Mailing-lists” Phabricator project and we’ll check it out.
In the coming days/weeks will also import some public mailing lists from the old version to the new version to check archive size, search index size, and other aspects. There are other TODOs left as well like monitoring, logging, anti-abuse, etc.
Slowly and after testing (hopefully soon), we expect to deploy this on lists.wikimedia.org and mailing lists one by one or in batches can be upgraded to the 21st century.
The overall task tracking this project is T52864 https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T52864 and a big thank you people who are helping this move forward.
Regards, Kunal and Amir
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, < mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe <wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>>
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 12:07 PM Alphos OGame alphos.ogame@gmail.com wrote:
Hello Amir, hello all,
Fantastic news !
Quick side question : whatever will happen to the passwords that we kept on post-it notes sticked to our monitors for lack of frequent use or good enough cognitive skills ? Joke aside, will there be a site-wide password purge once v3 is deployed, or shall we keep on using our old passwords, with the currently plaintext passwords stored in files simply hashed and stored in the new database ?
You shouldn't reuse those passwords from the old mailman as they are stored in plain text but the good thing (and a rather important thing) about mailman3 is that you can make a central account for all mailing lists and then use that instead. So there won't be a need to store twenty different passwords for each mailing list you are a member of (or admin/moderator). Hope just one more password would be okay ;)
Best
Whatever the case, fantastic news :-)
Roger / Alphos
Le 25 mars 2021 à 08:58, Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com a écrit :
Hello,
tl;dr: https://lists-next.wikimedia.org is running mailman3. Please help us test the software before we upgrade the real mailing list server.
Kunal and I have been working on deploying the new mailman (version 3) to replace mailman2 serving https://lists.wikimedia.org and powering all of our mailing lists.
Mailman2 is a dinosaur that should have gone extinct years ago. Pretty old user interface (especially for admins and moderators), storing passwords in plain text, lack of any database (everything is file on disk), pretty old code, lack of ability to search in archives or send email from web interface, running on EOL python (python2), encoding issues with non-Latin languages, hard to redact archives, and the list goes on and on.
The new version has been developed/puppetized/tested in the Cloud and is now ready for proper testing! Give it a try: https://lists-next.wikimedia.org. We have created some mailing lists you can join and can test. If you want to test the experience as a list administrator/moderator, we can give those permissions out as well.
WARNING: All data on the lists-next server will be deleted after the test period is over.
We will also need help updating documentation on wikis and elsewhere.
If you find any bugs/issues (yay!), please file a ticket in the “Wikimedia-Mailing-lists” Phabricator project and we’ll check it out.
In the coming days/weeks will also import some public mailing lists from the old version to the new version to check archive size, search index size, and other aspects. There are other TODOs left as well like monitoring, logging, anti-abuse, etc.
Slowly and after testing (hopefully soon), we expect to deploy this on lists.wikimedia.org and mailing lists one by one or in batches can be upgraded to the 21st century.
The overall task tracking this project is T52864 https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T52864 and a big thank you people who are helping this move forward.
Regards, Kunal and Amir
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, < mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe <wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>>
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Now *that* is fantastic news indeed. I'll be sure to read up on that. The dinosaur's dead, long live the new, uh, dinosaur ! ;-)
Roger / Alphos
Le 25 mars 2021 à 17:39, Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com a écrit :
On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 12:07 PM Alphos OGame <alphos.ogame@gmail.com mailto:alphos.ogame@gmail.com> wrote: Hello Amir, hello all,
Fantastic news !
Quick side question : whatever will happen to the passwords that we kept on post-it notes sticked to our monitors for lack of frequent use or good enough cognitive skills ? Joke aside, will there be a site-wide password purge once v3 is deployed, or shall we keep on using our old passwords, with the currently plaintext passwords stored in files simply hashed and stored in the new database ?
You shouldn't reuse those passwords from the old mailman as they are stored in plain text but the good thing (and a rather important thing) about mailman3 is that you can make a central account for all mailing lists and then use that instead. So there won't be a need to store twenty different passwords for each mailing list you are a member of (or admin/moderator). Hope just one more password would be okay ;)
Best
Whatever the case, fantastic news :-)
Roger / Alphos
Le 25 mars 2021 à 08:58, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com mailto:ladsgroup@gmail.com> a écrit :
Hello,
tl;dr: https://lists-next.wikimedia.org https://lists-next.wikimedia.org/ is running mailman3. Please help us test the software before we upgrade the real mailing list server.
Kunal and I have been working on deploying the new mailman (version 3) to replace mailman2 serving https://lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/ and powering all of our mailing lists.
Mailman2 is a dinosaur that should have gone extinct years ago. Pretty old user interface (especially for admins and moderators), storing passwords in plain text, lack of any database (everything is file on disk), pretty old code, lack of ability to search in archives or send email from web interface, running on EOL python (python2), encoding issues with non-Latin languages, hard to redact archives, and the list goes on and on.
The new version has been developed/puppetized/tested in the Cloud and is now ready for proper testing! Give it a try: https://lists-next.wikimedia.org https://lists-next.wikimedia.org/. We have created some mailing lists you can join and can test. If you want to test the experience as a list administrator/moderator, we can give those permissions out as well.
WARNING: All data on the lists-next server will be deleted after the test period is over.
We will also need help updating documentation on wikis and elsewhere.
If you find any bugs/issues (yay!), please file a ticket in the “Wikimedia-Mailing-lists” Phabricator project and we’ll check it out.
In the coming days/weeks will also import some public mailing lists from the old version to the new version to check archive size, search index size, and other aspects. There are other TODOs left as well like monitoring, logging, anti-abuse, etc.
Slowly and after testing (hopefully soon), we expect to deploy this on lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/ and mailing lists one by one or in batches can be upgraded to the 21st century.
The overall task tracking this project is T52864 https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T52864 and a big thank you people who are helping this move forward.
Regards, Kunal and Amir
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
-- Amir (he/him)
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com writes:
tl;dr: https://lists-next.wikimedia.org is running mailman3. Please help us test the software before we upgrade the real mailing list server.
Indeed this is great news. I have subscribed to a couple of mailing lists that are already using v3. And it really makes it easy to manage. Thanks for working on this.
One question. I subscribe to this list via the NNTP bridge hosted at gmane.io. Will the change make any difference at that end? I mean do the administrators of Gmane require any change?
Hi,
I've started to play with the interface, but questioning a bit the instructions given (for clarity purposes) when you're signing up for a list:
Before you can start using GNU Mailman at this site, you must first confirm
that this is your email address. You can do this by replying to this message, keeping the Subject header intact.
Should there be additional instructions on if something is needed in the body of that reply email, or that it can be empty and just keep the subject line the same?
Cheers,
Deb
--
deb tankersley (she/her)
senior program manager, engineering
Wikimedia Foundation
On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 3:40 AM Pankaj Jangid pankaj@codeisgreat.org wrote:
Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com writes:
tl;dr: https://lists-next.wikimedia.org is running mailman3. Please
help us
test the software before we upgrade the real mailing list server.
Indeed this is great news. I have subscribed to a couple of mailing lists that are already using v3. And it really makes it easy to manage. Thanks for working on this.
One question. I subscribe to this list via the NNTP bridge hosted at gmane.io. Will the change make any difference at that end? I mean do the administrators of Gmane require any change?
-- Regards, Pankaj Jangid
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
I think the subject line is the only thing that matters but I also want to emphasize that unlike mailman2, you can just have a central account for all of your mailing lists. Confirm your email when registering a new user (which you can just click on a link) and everything will be pretty straightforward afterwards.
HTH
On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 2:11 PM Deb Tankersley dtankersley@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hi,
I've started to play with the interface, but questioning a bit the instructions given (for clarity purposes) when you're signing up for a list:
Before you can start using GNU Mailman at this site, you must first confirm
that this is your email address. You can do this by replying to this message, keeping the Subject header intact.
Should there be additional instructions on if something is needed in the body of that reply email, or that it can be empty and just keep the subject line the same?
Cheers,
Deb
--
deb tankersley (she/her)
senior program manager, engineering
Wikimedia Foundation
On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 3:40 AM Pankaj Jangid pankaj@codeisgreat.org wrote:
Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com writes:
tl;dr: https://lists-next.wikimedia.org is running mailman3. Please
help us
test the software before we upgrade the real mailing list server.
Indeed this is great news. I have subscribed to a couple of mailing lists that are already using v3. And it really makes it easy to manage. Thanks for working on this.
One question. I subscribe to this list via the NNTP bridge hosted at gmane.io. Will the change make any difference at that end? I mean do the administrators of Gmane require any change?
-- Regards, Pankaj Jangid
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hi,
On 3/25/21 11:45 PM, Pankaj Jangid wrote:
One question. I subscribe to this list via the NNTP bridge hosted at gmane.io. Will the change make any difference at that end? I mean do the administrators of Gmane require any change?
My understanding is that Gmane is subscribed to our mailing lists just like a normal user. I don't expect anything will change in that area since all subscriptions will be carried over.
Mailman3 also has plugins for sites like mail-archive.com[1] which I think are manually configured for now. I haven't looked into the implications of what enabling such a plugin would be though.
[1] https://docs.mailman3.org/projects/mailman/en/latest/src/mailman/archiving/d...
-- Kunal
On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 12:59 AM Amir Sarabadani ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
tl;dr: https://lists-next.wikimedia.org is running mailman3. Please help us test the software before we upgrade the real mailing list server.
Thank you so much for your hard work on this. For better or for worse, mailing lists are still essential to the wikiverse, and this is a big step towards making them more approachable (for one thing, by letting folks post through the web interface).
Warmly, Erik
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org