on 6/29/09 8:35 PM, Virgilio A. P. Machado at vam@fct.unl.pt wrote:
Talking about antisocial... It's quite interesting what I experienced in this very list.
I wasn't aware of the study published in the New Scientist until I read about it here on the list, and appreciate the information very much.
Earlier this month I wrote about my perception of the same inadequate behavior on the Portuguese Wikipedia and the adverse consequences that might have. Not surprisingly I met a pretty derogatory comment and plenty of silence. I certainly don't have the status of the New Scientist. I also don't have, yet, any study to back up my observations.
Nevertheless I'm saddened by the undeniable evidence, that even on this list it is easier to find displeasure than empathy, camaraderie, not to mention friendship. As I was told: That doesn't really fly here.
Sincerely,
Virgilio A. P. Machado
You are not alone in your observations, Virgilio; more agree with you than will admit. It is truly a sad state of affairs.
Marc Riddell
The most significant problem, Virgilio, is that there isn't too much people on this list can do. Unless and until problems become so clear that steward or Foundation action are obviously called for, there is unlikely to be much concrete action at all. Since we can't impose a solution to the problems you've identified from afar, and most of us can neither verify these problems nor participate in fixing them without speaking the language... What else should we do?
You're right, though, that exchanges on this list aren't always very friendly. Maybe because very few discussions are actually productive, and outside of cooperative effort most friendly exchanges are more likely to be taken off-list.
Nathan
1. You're wrong. Just today I myself received some kind words offlist, but related to a thread. Just because you're not getting the air of friendliness you desire (at this moment anyway), doesn't mean friendliness doesn't exist.
2. It's a mailing list for discussion and debate, not an outlet for personal validation. If you don't like being debated and disagreed with, then don't post your opinions on something. I personally find asking questions rather than making statements tends to garner a gentler response, if you're in need of one.
3. All mailing lists are at times more hostile than any real life conversation. It's far from unique to Wikimedia lists, and I've seen *far*more angry flame wars on other mailing lists. If it's a problem of the medium of mailing lists and not of Wikimedian culture, then there's nothing we could change about our culture that would make a mailing list more friendly. I for one see us as already going out of our way to try and be a culture that welcomes open discussion free of insulting behavior.
Steven Walling
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 7:01 PM, Nathan nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
The most significant problem, Virgilio, is that there isn't too much people on this list can do. Unless and until problems become so clear that steward or Foundation action are obviously called for, there is unlikely to be much concrete action at all. Since we can't impose a solution to the problems you've identified from afar, and most of us can neither verify these problems nor participate in fixing them without speaking the language... What else should we do?
You're right, though, that exchanges on this list aren't always very friendly. Maybe because very few discussions are actually productive, and outside of cooperative effort most friendly exchanges are more likely to be taken off-list.
Nathan _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Steven Walling wrote:
- You're wrong. Just today I myself received some kind words offlist, but
related to a thread. Just because you're not getting the air of friendliness you desire (at this moment anyway), doesn't mean friendliness doesn't exist.
Getting friendly words offlist, says nothing about the list. I'm sure that we all are more friendly with some than with others, so there's nothing unusual about private messages. It's much easier to say something to someone privately; there is less risk of needing to defend every point that you are raising, less risk that some detail might be taken adversarially.
- It's a mailing list for discussion and debate, not an outlet for personal
validation. If you don't like being debated and disagreed with, then don't post your opinions on something. I personally find asking questions rather than making statements tends to garner a gentler response, if you're in need of one.
Conflationist nonsense! One of the problems is precisely that those who don't like being bullied don't post, because that shuts out an entire range of opinions from those who are more thoughtful than loud. There's a problem with just asking questions too. If what you want is a dose of paternalistic pablum, that's exactly what you'll get. Attend a political (or some other) speech that is followed by a "question period", and there is an implicit social barrier between you and the speaker. If you know he's wrong you still have to concede that he is in a position to shout louder.
- All mailing lists are at times more hostile than any real life
conversation. It's far from unique to Wikimedia lists, and I've seen *far*more angry flame wars on other mailing lists. If it's a problem of the medium of mailing lists and not of Wikimedian culture, then there's nothing we could change about our culture that would make a mailing list more friendly. I for one see us as already going out of our way to try and be a culture that welcomes open discussion free of insulting behavior.
It's not just mailing lists. Perhaps our worst offenders don't even participate in the mailing lists. Mailing lists are certainly less hostile than those in-your-face real life situations that encourage violence. Perhaps too, those who shout here wouldn't have the courage to express their real feelings in person to their opponents. Going out of one's way is primarily a reflection of individual efforts, and we do have some such individuals. It doesn't generalize well into a community effort.
Ec
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 7:01 PM, Nathan nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
The most significant problem, Virgilio, is that there isn't too much people on this list can do. Unless and until problems become so clear that steward or Foundation action are obviously called for, there is unlikely to be much concrete action at all. Since we can't impose a solution to the problems you've identified from afar, and most of us can neither verify these problems nor participate in fixing them without speaking the language... What else should we do?
You're right, though, that exchanges on this list aren't always very friendly. Maybe because very few discussions are actually productive, and outside of cooperative effort most friendly exchanges are more likely to be taken off-list.
Nathan
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org