Virgilio A. P. Machado wrote:
I don't see any evidence that "nobody outside the Portuguese community can see a problem" unless one personal opinion should be considered proof.
The statement was not about anybody outside the Portuguese community seeing a problem, but that "the issue keeps popping up". The very fact that is being addressed here corroborates that statement. Examples of previous discussions were also provided spanning a period of five years. No evidence has been produced to the contrary, i.e., that the issue does not keep popping up.
There is also clear evidence that the community within the Portuguese wikipedia has a very good handle on the issue, for all that the fomentation around the European Portuguese issue seems to be perennial.
If "it all seems to be a lot of fuss about nothing" that might be because appearances can be deceiving and burring your head in the sand or looking the other way will not make any existing problems go away, although everybody is entitled to ignore them. That's a very common attitude when the problems are not at your doorstep, although there's always the danger that they will eventually get there. Again, the very fact that this discussion is taking place here is a symptom that there is a fuss about something.
To me it seems that the great majority of people who are themselves on the Portuguese wikipedia do not think raising this issue time and again is a useful pastime. Thus the issue of whether you are or are not Portuguese language speaking yourself, seems to me a moot point.
No statements were made concerning the creation or not of a "two-wiki solution". It's nice to know that someone believes that "the wider Wikimedia community will never accept a two-wiki solution". Hopefully not everybody will have such a preconceived idea and keep an open mind about the specific needs of specific projects. Until the problems and needs are properly accessed it is premature to dismiss any alternative solution.
I'll agree that "two-wiki solution" in this connection is very poor phrasing. Adding a European Portuguese only wikipedia wouldn't be a solution, and it wouldn't be "two-wiki", since I believe there currently exist *at least* two wikipedias relating to the Portuguese language grouping, namely Portuguese and Galician.
The issue is really whether how to discern the degree of apartness within the *many* Portuguese dialects, including not only European and Brazilian but the African, creole Portuguese etc, and which can not reasonably be expected to be able to contribute within the default Portuguese wikipedia.
One does not need to dismiss a proposed solution, to point out the inherent problems with it. And creating a European Portuguese only wikipedia would create many problems, of such weight, that though not dismissing the concept as a theoretical possibility, it is easy to weigh the pros and the cons, and come to a fair *evaluation* that it would be a very problematic "solution".
My personal evaluation tends to be that an European only wikipedia is not a good solution, though I am not sure about the African Portuguese or the Creole Portuguese cases -- purely because I have not at all studied the issues with those. I would agree that there is still perhaps too much resistance towards creating separate wikipedias for creoles, dialects and the like -- in the general case -- though I don't think a European Portuguese only wikipedia is a case where it is ideally justified.
Yours,
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
Sorry, but I could not grasp the argument "that the fomentation around the European Portuguese issue seems to be perennial" is "clear evidence that the community within the Portuguese wikipedia has a very good handle on the issue." Does it mean that if a problem doesn't go away it's because it is well handled?
I'm glad someone considers addressing matters of one's language a pastime and salute the agreement that you don't have to know Portuguese to engage in such pastime. Everybody should have a hobby of some kind. Writing to a mailing list could be one. I do have other things to do, but this is so much more fun.
Nice try that of mentioning Galician, but that is a controversial issue and I would not touch it with a ten foot pole. It would also make you terribly unpopular in a lot of Spanish circles of power. There might be a mistake in the statement that those two wikipedias relate to the Portuguese language grouping. I believe the non-controversial wording is Portuguese-Galician language grouping.
I read with great interest the considerations about "how to discern the degree of apartness within the *many* Portuguese dialects", that it is "easy to weigh the pros and the cons [,of creating a European Portuguese only wikipedia] and come to a fair *evaluation* that it would be a very problematic "solution". I was very entertained by a "personal evaluation" and that someone of great authority in these matters doesn't "think a European Portuguese only wikipedia is a case where it is ideally justified." One must be really clever to reach all those conclusion so easily. I surely don't have an answer for that, myself, but would love to see, and I am willing to contribute to a serious study of the problem.
Sincerely,
Virgilio A. P. Machado
At 14:44 23-03-2010, you wrote:
Virgilio A. P. Machado wrote:
I don't see any evidence that "nobody outside the Portuguese community can see a problem" unless one personal opinion should be considered proof.
The statement was not about anybody outside the Portuguese community seeing a problem, but that "the issue keeps popping up". The very fact that is being addressed here corroborates that statement. Examples of previous discussions were also provided spanning a period of five years. No evidence has been produced to the contrary, i.e., that the issue does not keep popping up.
There is also clear evidence that the community within the Portuguese wikipedia has a very good handle on the issue, for all that the fomentation around the European Portuguese issue seems to be perennial.
If "it all seems to be a lot of fuss about nothing" that might be because appearances can be deceiving and burring your head in the sand or looking the other way will not make any existing problems go away, although everybody is entitled to ignore them. That's a very common attitude when the problems are not at your doorstep, although there's always the danger that they will eventually get there. Again, the very fact that this discussion is taking place here is a symptom that there is a fuss about something.
To me it seems that the great majority of people who are themselves on the Portuguese wikipedia do not think raising this issue time and again is a useful pastime. Thus the issue of whether you are or are not Portuguese language speaking yourself, seems to me a moot point.
No statements were made concerning the creation or not of a "two-wiki solution". It's nice to know that someone believes that "the wider Wikimedia community will never accept a two-wiki solution". Hopefully not everybody will have such a preconceived idea and keep an open mind about the specific needs of specific projects. Until the problems and needs are properly accessed it is premature to dismiss any alternative solution.
I'll agree that "two-wiki solution" in this connection is very poor phrasing. Adding a European Portuguese only wikipedia wouldn't be a solution, and it wouldn't be "two-wiki", since I believe there currently exist *at least* two wikipedias relating to the Portuguese language grouping, namely Portuguese and Galician.
The issue is really whether how to discern the degree of apartness within the *many* Portuguese dialects, including not only European and Brazilian but the African, creole Portuguese etc, and which can not reasonably be expected to be able to contribute within the default Portuguese wikipedia.
One does not need to dismiss a proposed solution, to point out the inherent problems with it. And creating a European Portuguese only wikipedia would create many problems, of such weight, that though not dismissing the concept as a theoretical possibility, it is easy to weigh the pros and the cons, and come to a fair *evaluation* that it would be a very problematic "solution".
My personal evaluation tends to be that an European only wikipedia is not a good solution, though I am not sure about the African Portuguese or the Creole Portuguese cases -- purely because I have not at all studied the issues with those. I would agree that there is still perhaps too much resistance towards creating separate wikipedias for creoles, dialects and the like -- in the general case -- though I don't think a European Portuguese only wikipedia is a case where it is ideally justified.
Yours,
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
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Prof. Virgilio A. P. Machado vam@fct.unl.pt Engenharia Industrial http://web.archive.org/web/20070824105539/www.ipei.pt/GDEI/ DEMI/FCT/UNL Fax: 351-21-294-8546 or 21-294-8531 Universidade de Portugal or 351-21-295-4461 2829-516 Caparica Tel.: 351-21-294-8542 or 21-294-8567 PORTUGAL or 351-21-294-8300 or 21 294-8500 Ext.112-32 96-577-3726 Faculdade de Ciencias e Tecnologia/UNL (FCT/UNL)
(Dr. Machado is Associate Professor of Industrial Engineering at the School of Sciences and Engineering/UNL of the University of Portugal)
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