On Montenegrin request for new wikipedia I found this resolution:
**This request has been rejected following discussion with the Special projects language subcommittee http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special_projects_subcommittees/Languages. Wikis should not be split along political lines, and we encourage Montenegrin editors to collaborate with Serbian editors in a single wiki or, at the very least, to have Montenegrin pages alongside Serbian pages. If political divisions make this difficult, please note that the Wikimedia Foundation's goal is giving every single person free, /unbiased/ access to the sum of all human knowledge, and not information from individual political communities.**
I am asking members of Special projects language subcommittee to give evidence that this request was driven by political lines. I am asking for reference in past that committee has made same decision on same situation. I am asking members of committee to give deeper guidelines to us what should we do next in this situation.
Also wider explanation of this decision could be helpful.
Thank you,
Darko Bulatovic
President of IT Association of Montenegro
p.s. Sorry for wrong mail posting.
To others that find this interesting,
I have found that this decision is very biased, as it is based on assumptions not on arguments. I have tried to communicate with members of subcommittee but They found it unrelevant and made decision to deny this request (you will find my attempt on this mailing list). The explanation is colored by political vocabulary with no particular reason, it is only driven on assumption - not real facts at least they didn't show them.
On request page was started a "war" against Montenegrin wikipedia where mostly Serbs voted against Montenegrin Wikipedia. Legitimate votes, but Montenegrin votes was deleted and marked as sock puppets - even it was not true. I don't understand why stewards dint check this votes again, but on page you will find many accusation on my name that stewards/Admin didn't try to clear. Why? I don't understand. I have called them several times but with no success. Our test wiki (wikii.itam.ws) was attacked several days by members of meta wiki on Mediawiki website originated from Serbia, deleting our pages and mocking on our State name changing it to Albania,etc. We lost several days in fight against vandals and tried to talk with stewards about what happen on meta request page, this was very difficult to us, but stewards didn't reacted swift in this situation clearing up the discussion there (maybe they did have some other work to do I don't know). I have called them about 20 times. At end I was blocked by no particular reason, and discussion was heated by some serbs which political agitated and insulted some people from Montenegro. That made reaction that leaded to page protection. I have talked with stewards about my ban on meta and they agreed to unblock me and to give me a chance to explain all on my talk page(user:Ego_and_his_own). On which I was also false accused, but no one reacted. Page was on subcommittee "desk" almost a week before new policy was on stage, but never less the request was judged on new policy, this is not normal in common law or in common decision making rules. But never less on that page request there was more than 5 people willing to contribute to Montenegrin wikipedia, which is basic rule from new policy. In discussion also was enough material to be positive to this request. At least to ask for some clearance on some questions, but members of committee didn't find this necessary.
I would like to see some of yours opinions regarding this issue as this looks very strange to me.
Thank you
Darko Bulatovic
On 01/12/06, Darko Bulatovic mail@itam.ws wrote:
I would like to see some of yours opinions regarding this issue as this looks very strange to me.
OK: Splitting Serbo-Croatian into three wikis was a ridiculous mistake, and does not justify compounding the error.
- d.
David Gerard wrote:
On 01/12/06, Darko Bulatovic mail@itam.ws wrote:
I would like to see some of yours opinions regarding this issue as this looks very strange to me.
OK: Splitting Serbo-Croatian into three wikis was a ridiculous mistake, and does not justify compounding the error.
- d.
Do you think that negation of one language is much bigger mistake?
Darko Bulatovic
Darko Bulatovic schreef:
David Gerard wrote:
On 01/12/06, Darko Bulatovic mail@itam.ws wrote:
I would like to see some of yours opinions regarding this issue as this looks very strange to me.
OK: Splitting Serbo-Croatian into three wikis was a ridiculous mistake, and does not justify compounding the error.
- d.
Do you think that negation of one language is much bigger mistake?
Darko Bulatovic
Hoi, Sabine asked some colleagues (translators) on the mailing lists for professional translators about Montenegrin, the universal answer is that Montenegrin and Serbian is the same language. The point here is that when it DOES make a difference, translators will have business by adapting it for use on the Montenegrin market. In this a text prepared for the Dutch market is different from a Belgian market because there being a big discrepancy in the vocabulary .. all this does not deny us both speaking Dutch.
Thanks, GerardM
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Darko Bulatovic schreef:
David Gerard wrote:
On 01/12/06, Darko Bulatovic mail@itam.ws wrote:
I would like to see some of yours opinions regarding this issue as this looks very strange to me.
OK: Splitting Serbo-Croatian into three wikis was a ridiculous mistake, and does not justify compounding the error.
- d.
Do you think that negation of one language is much bigger mistake?
Darko Bulatovic
Hoi, Sabine asked some colleagues (translators) on the mailing lists for professional translators about Montenegrin, the universal answer is that Montenegrin and Serbian is the same language. The point here is that when it DOES make a difference, translators will have business by adapting it for use on the Montenegrin market. In this a text prepared for the Dutch market is different from a Belgian market because there being a big discrepancy in the vocabulary .. all this does not deny us both speaking Dutch.
Thanks, GerardM
Gerard, We have talked about this, she talked with serbs translators?
They cant translate from Montenegrin without use of some dictionaries. Situation is similar to the " Gorski vijenac" - they cant translate it - they cant even understand it fully.
Darko Bulatovic.
Gerard she could try this professional translation company. They do translate from/to Montenegrin language:
http://www.spes.hr/Main_PortalPage.aspx?external=true&kolumna=20&br_...
As you can see it is not even Montenegrin Company.
Regards, Darko Bulatovic
You don't find translators offering it on various translator's portals (I checked three of them). These portals do not even include Montenegrin in their language search. (http://proz.com, http://gotranslators.com, http://translatorscafe.com).
I am not going to forward my single contacts since they are not involved with the wikimedia foundation and your politics and therefore remain protected.
Well ... could you tell me why http://sdl.com does not offer Montenegrin? and http://logos.it and http://e-kern.com?
Oh come on ... it is enough about politics. You use a different script to Serbian ... that's all ... btw. the funniest thing I came through was just one request asking for a translator for Serbian that can understand the Montenegrin dialect ... so: only one request about the so-called Montenegrin language on so many translation portals.
In which language are your instruction manuals for computers, fridges, tv-sets etc. are written if there are obviously no translators offering Montenegrin as a language they translate to (hmmm ... strange ... are there no translators in Montenegro or are they just not offering the language, because otherwise they would not get any jobs because the language is not known in the world?).
A statement I got from a person that is neither Serbian nor Montenegrin, but interpreter (mind me interpreter, not translator) for that ONE language is that it is not even different enough in pronunciation to really create trouble to someone not being Serbian mothertongue to understand it - uhmmmmm ... . Mind me: we are talking about professionals who deal with languages every day, who make a living out of that.
Btw. in which language is the Operating System of your computer?
So please: instead of going ahead creating unneccessary problems, help to find a way to integrate people on the Serbian wikipedia.
Thank you for your co-operation!
Best wishes,
Sabine
Darko Bulatovic schrieb:
Gerard she could try this professional translation company. They do translate from/to Montenegrin language:
http://www.spes.hr/Main_PortalPage.aspx?external=true&kolumna=20&br_...
As you can see it is not even Montenegrin Company.
Regards, Darko Bulatovic
Chiacchiera con i tuoi amici in tempo reale! http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/*http://it.messenger.yahoo.com
Sabine Cretella wrote:
You don't find translators offering it on various translator's portals (I checked three of them). These portals do not even include Montenegrin in their language search. (http://proz.com, http://gotranslators.com, http://translatorscafe.com).
Sabin, this is joke? right? Please tell when it is a joke as i am not very funny when this topic is subject. Those companies have limited language translations. I hope that you don't suggest that they translate to all languages of world?
I am not going to forward my single contacts since they are not involved with the wikimedia foundation and your politics and therefore remain protected.
Well ... could you tell me why http://sdl.com does not offer Montenegrin? and http://logos.it and http://e-kern.com?
Oh come on ... it is enough about politics. You use a different script to Serbian ... that's all ... btw. the funniest thing I came through was just one request asking for a translator for Serbian that can understand the Montenegrin dialect ... so: only one request about the so-called Montenegrin language on so many translation portals.
But Sabin, you talk about politic, your statement is colored by politic. Not mine. I am just wondered by this epilogue here.
In which language are your instruction manuals for computers, fridges, tv-sets etc. are written if there are obviously no translators offering Montenegrin as a language they translate to (hmmm ... strange ... are there no translators in Montenegro or are they just not offering the language, because otherwise they would not get any jobs because the language is not known in the world?).
mainly in English or Multilingual as France, Italian Russian, etc... In 99% there is no any of similar languages. That is not a wonder as Montenegro is very small market. beside English I can use Croat, Bosnian as even as Serbian. That is case as I was born in country (SFR Yugoslavia) where we all learned unified language.
A statement I got from a person that is neither Serbian nor Montenegrin, but interpreter (mind me interpreter, not translator) for that ONE language is that it is not even different enough in pronunciation to really create trouble to someone not being Serbian mothertongue to understand it - uhmmmmm ... . Mind me: we are talking about professionals who deal with languages every day, who make a living out of that.
That is very narrow research - one man is not enough. You didn't do much effort on this topic but you did rush to make decision. Professionals have limited area of work and they are specialized on some field not all.
Let him translate this: Vidite li čudo, Crnogorci! Prisuka sam pedeset godinah, na Lovćen sam vazda ljetovao, izlazio na ovu vršinu: sto putah sam gledao oblake đe iz mora dođu na gomile i prekrile svu ovu planinu, otisni se tamo ali tamo s sijevanjem i s velikom jekom i s lomljavom strašnijeh gromovah; sto putah sam ovđena sjedio i grija se mirno sprama sunca, a pod sobom munje i gromove gleda, sluša đeno cijepaju; gleda jekom grada stravičnoga đe s' poda mnom jalove oblaci, al' ovoga čuda jošt ne viđeh! Vidite li, ako boga znate, koliko je mora i primorja, ravne Bosne i Hercegovine, Arbanije upravo do mora, koliko je naše Gore Crne, sve je oblak pritiska jednako, svud se čuje jeka i grmljava, svud ispod nas munje sijevaju, a nas jedne samo sunce grije. I dosta je dobro primarilo ka je ovo brdo vazda hladno.
or this: A cujes li kumim te kapicom kako avetaju ovizi ovudijena, lutkica je sad pocela o bliskom istoku ovi kako u rvacku mogu posrat pre$ednika ,no o temi nista !!!!!!!!!!!! Ja mnim e bi me strpali u ludnicu kad bi lanuo nesto za Gorana Persona ,a kamoli da ga nazivam lopovom ubicom marlborom itd itd ! No na TEMU kudj se djedose oni slini procenti % te citah potonjijeh godina ???? jesuli uvidjeli momcici da propaganda veljeserbska im je unistila drzavu i zivot ??? To mene interesuje !
Please force him to be honest here and not to use other dictionaries.
Btw. in which language is the Operating System of your computer?
So please: instead of going ahead creating unneccessary problems, help to find a way to integrate people on the Serbian wikipedia.
Thank you for your co-operation!
Best wishes,
Sabine
My operating system is in English.
Sabine please, let be honest here, I don't make problem, you make problem and don't switch these here. You didn't do your work and this level of discussion is not what I expected from member of language committee. I have given a proof of (professional) company that do translation from/to Montenegrin and you give me companies that don't? What that mean?If I find translation company that don't translate to Hindu that language don't exist?... You need to find alibi to clear your self for not doing what you should? Or at least to ask for some facts that will show more clearly this topic. Instead you jump into conclusion. It is easier i know. But you denied my identity and identity of my people,Denied our own language forcing-suggesting to use language of different people. You talked all time about politics. And now lets talk about politics I know who I am and I know in which language I talk and you constantly deny that. How should I feel about this? You in this way support pro Miloshevic and national-chauvinism politic from Belgrade which denied natural right to have his own identity to anyone from former Yugoslavia. This is anti democratic and anti human. This looks to me, sadly, like situation that happen on beginning of 90 when Serbs forced all to be under their national identity and because this was all wars on Balkan. Your opinion seems to me that is under this sort of propaganda.
Today when war is over and we know everything what happen and we did go peacefully for our freedom, you make you self blind and you talk me about working under Serbian wikipedia?
I hoped that this is not a case about you Lady. You seems don't know that all nation are forced to go out from Yugoslavia because this kind of "story".
It is ok by me I understand that you have some private business that you need to spare more time but please don't justify your self by using this kind of discussion(tv manuals, companies that don't use Montenegrin to translate,OS ...)as this case affect one (half million) people and one language.
I think that members of committee made this the problem as their judgment was not based on fairness or truth. It is based on something that they need to explain. I am waiting that explanation officially.
Thank you, Darko Bulatovic
p.s. I have see that other write Sabin so I am sorry if I used this in wrong way.
On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic mail@itam.ws wrote:
mainly in English or Multilingual as France, Italian Russian, etc... In 99% there is no any of similar languages. That is not a wonder as Montenegro is very small market. beside English I can use Croat, Bosnian as even as Serbian. That is case as I was born in country (SFR Yugoslavia) where we all learned unified language.
Then why not continue to use it?
Sabine please, let be honest here, I don't make problem, you make problem and don't switch these here. You didn't do your work and this level of discussion is not what I expected from member of language committee. I have given a proof of (professional) company that do translation from/to Montenegrin and you give me companies that don't? What that mean?If I find translation company that don't translate to Hindu that language don't exist?
Hindi exists and it's written form differs enough from Urdu to make it a separate language. No shortage of academic papers exist that show this.
... You need to find alibi to clear your self for not doing what you should? Or at least to ask for some facts that will show more clearly this topic. Instead you jump into conclusion. It is easier i know. But you denied my identity and identity of my people,Denied our own language forcing-suggesting to use language of different people.
According to your government the language of Montenegro is Serbian of the Ijekavian dialect. The Declaration of Montenegrin PEN Center doesn't claim it as anything more than a dialect.
You status as an independent nation state is not an issue. The question is how a European language of ~150K could be completely missed by academics. Romansh has half that number of speakers and has been documented since at least 1776.
You talked all time about politics. And now lets talk about politics I know who I am and I know in which language I talk and you constantly deny that. How should I feel about this?
You should consider the possibility of transferring your understandable national pride to other things.
You in this way support pro Miloshevic and national-chauvinism politic from Belgrade which denied natural right to have his own identity to anyone from former Yugoslavia.
Miloshevic is dead.
This is anti democratic and anti human.
2+2=4 no matter how many believe that it makes 5
This looks to me, sadly, like situation that happen on beginning of 90 when Serbs forced all to be under their national identity and because this was all wars on Balkan. Your opinion seems to me that is under this sort of propaganda.
I doubt it. Serbia has not excactly been popular in the international community of late.
Today when war is over and we know everything what happen and we did go peacefully for our freedom, you make you self blind and you talk me about working under Serbian wikipedia?
No not the Serbian wikipedia. En is not the English wikipedia it is the English language wikipedia. Just because there was once a country called England does not mean that the wikipedia belongs to that country. Instead wikipedias are divided by language. In this case the correct name for the language would probably be Serbo-Croatian.
It is ok by me I understand that you have some private business that you need to spare more time but please don't justify your self by using this kind of discussion(tv manuals, companies that don't use Montenegrin to translate,OS ...)as this case affect one (half million) people and one language.
No at most 22% of your country describes the language they speak as Montenegrin. That would be a little over 140K people.
--- geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic mail@itam.ws wrote:
Today when war is over and we know everything what
happen and we did go
peacefully for our freedom, you make you self
blind and you talk me
about working under Serbian wikipedia?
No not the Serbian wikipedia. En is not the English wikipedia it is the English language wikipedia. Just because there was once a country called England does not mean that the wikipedia belongs to that country. Instead wikipedias are divided by language. In this case the correct name for the language would probably be Serbo-Croatian.
This right here is the key the whole thread. Wikipedia sub-domains are seperated by written languages not nations. The goal should be to have the least amount of subdomains possible to concetrate reasources. When in doubt we should not create a subdomain.
The question I have is are we going to examine all current (or at least inactive) subdomains in the near future for merging possibilities?
Birgitte SB
____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com
Birgitte SB wrote:
--- geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic mail@itam.ws wrote:
Today when war is over and we know everything what
happen and we did go
peacefully for our freedom, you make you self
blind and you talk me
about working under Serbian wikipedia?
No not the Serbian wikipedia. En is not the English wikipedia it is the English language wikipedia. Just because there was once a country called England does not mean that the wikipedia belongs to that country. Instead wikipedias are divided by language. In this case the correct name for the language would probably be Serbo-Croatian.
This right here is the key the whole thread. Wikipedia sub-domains are seperated by written languages not nations. The goal should be to have the least amount of subdomains possible to concetrate reasources. When in doubt we should not create a subdomain.
The question I have is are we going to examine all current (or at least inactive) subdomains in the near future for merging possibilities?
Birgitte SB
Birgittee,
Dont put words in my mouth, it is rude thing to do. As this is not key it is just one fact in the history of Balkan. And Balkan is not UK. And this comparison just shows that you don't have a clue what you talk about.
Darko Bulatovic
On 02/12/06, Darko Bulatovic mail@itam.ws wrote:
Dont put words in my mouth, it is rude thing to do. As this is not key it is just one fact in the history of Balkan. And Balkan is not UK. And this comparison just shows that you don't have a clue what you talk about.
I don't know if you've noticed, but you've so far managed to convince absolutely no-one here.
- d.
David Gerard wrote:
On 02/12/06, Darko Bulatovic mail@itam.ws wrote:
Dont put words in my mouth, it is rude thing to do. As this is not key it is just one fact in the history of Balkan. And Balkan is not UK. And this comparison just shows that you don't have a clue what you talk about.
David,
I just asked people here to explain me with what facts they have build up their opinion. No one did that. They just gave stereotypes and assumptions. And now I will give some data.
I will give one part translation of one linguist on this matter: Sorbonne before 25 years had opened class on which was studied language which we called serbo-croatian and which today our students study under 3 names: Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian. Personally I think there will be place for Montenegrin. I am glad that that languages and literature are present on Sorbonne with thanks of me and my former colleague which has doctorate on "Njegos"(Montenegrin Philosopher). Importance and image of our University obligate us to maintain level and quality of study and we improve it all the times.
POL LUI TOMA, chief of Slavic Class(Katedra) on University of Sorbonne Paris.
So David Montenegrin is matter of quality on Sorbonne but not for you.
Same linguist :
Q: Which one linguistic reasons are that official French science admitted Bosnian or Bosnjak language and started to study it on Sorbonne? A: We are not here in domain of science, we are in social-linguistic domain. If they which speak one language and it is base on some differences, and if they see that they language is different and if their rules that differ even little, they can state that this is language which have different name. Why not?
Same linguist:
Difference between Language and dialect is very subjective matter. Is the korzikans language or dialect? Some of Korsikans will say it is language, and others will say it is one of Italian dialects.
So Much about your objectivity in this. Specially claiming that Montenegrin is dialect of Serbian as that is ridiculous and just show that you don't have a clue about South Slavic languages.
One reference to old times: Ljubomir Nenadovic in "Letters" from 1858 " I have found i Montenegrin schools they learn to talk Montenegrin language..."
Simo Matavulj in " Notes of one writer" he cite words of one Montenegrin Toma Vukotica about seeking some theatre group for performing " Balkan Queen"(Montenegrin performance) made by Montenegrin King Nikola: " Are indeed that people from street can speak our language, pure Montenegrin, like it is written? Let God save me! You would not understand every third word.... even the best actors in Belgrade cant talk out language...."
And newer date: Linguist Dubravko Skiljan 1996 Closest to be called as separated language is not Croatian it is Montenegrin - at that moment when they put "SH, DZJ, ZJ" like separate phonemes, which will probably have, which is not necessary, and separate graphical symbols, they will make far more dedicated step than what was done here in purpose of language distinctions . Because that is something that clearly make difference language structure - number or system of phoneme(fonem))
And to understand this problematic people need to know history of language in this region. But they seems do have time to negate and to make assumptions but not to study this problematics. I know it is easier.
But I think that Klein is right, many last replies was just with no productive value. I will wait for official explanation from committee, so we could go further in trying to solve this problem, as this discussion didn't give me any objective fact or argument that could support this denial of request.
Thank you Darko Bulatovic
David Gerard wrote:
On 02/12/06, Darko Bulatovic mail@itam.ws wrote:
Dont put words in my mouth, it is rude thing to do. As this is not key it is just one fact in the history of Balkan. And Balkan is not UK. And this comparison just shows that you don't have a clue what you talk about.
I don't know if you've noticed, but you've so far managed to convince absolutely no-one here.
I am not at all convinced that we should have even the 3 wikipedias we have right now. In general, it is quite reasonable to say that there is in fact one language here, not 3, not 4, not 10.
The problem of two writing systems is a difficult one, yes. But the fact remains that if you sit down over a beer with people from all these dialects, they can laugh and joke and have fun together just as well as people with different dialects of English.
--Jimbo
Jimmy Wales wrote:
David Gerard wrote:
On 02/12/06, Darko Bulatovic mail@itam.ws wrote:
Dont put words in my mouth, it is rude thing to do. As this is not key it is just one fact in the history of Balkan. And Balkan is not UK. And this comparison just shows that you don't have a clue what you talk about.
I don't know if you've noticed, but you've so far managed to convince absolutely no-one here.
I am not at all convinced that we should have even the 3 wikipedias we have right now. In general, it is quite reasonable to say that there is in fact one language here, not 3, not 4, not 10.
The problem of two writing systems is a difficult one, yes. But the fact remains that if you sit down over a beer with people from all these dialects, they can laugh and joke and have fun together just as well as people with different dialects of English.
--Jimbo
Yes you are right Jimbo, but those people have problem to write same. And it will look very silly if you combine it. So it is not exactly "dialect" it is variations that have different rules. One caricature : Kud si aknula, dite na izvan, bona bre, sakam te, ce ge vidimo mori da gi ne pometesh. I ne brini sakam te, i odistina ce te fukam do zorata, te dua, moja djevojko."
Darko Bulatovic
Can we please have a separate list for language discussions, something like language-l@wikimedia.org ?
This request has come up many times before; we now have a dedicated language group, steady traffic on the requests for new languages page, and enough experienced people thinking constantly about language issues, that it makes some sense to give these discussions their own archive.
Of course people should always be welcome to come to foundation-l to discuss this kind of organizational issue, but then it would at least be possible to request a specific type of proposal, to say at some point "it is not productive to continue this thread on the general foundation list", or to ask each participant in a flame war to limit themselves to one post per day on the topic.
These language issues are extremely important; but they involve a small number of repeated stances and counter-stances. There are also many other extremely important foundation-level issues which are not being discussed as much as they should be, and which are harder to define -- making it harder to have enthusisatic flame wars about them -- which should be given their own room.
-- SJ
On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, Darko Bulatovic wrote:
Birgitte SB wrote:
--- geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic mail@itam.ws wrote:
Today when war is over and we know everything what
happen and we did go
peacefully for our freedom, you make you self
blind and you talk me
about working under Serbian wikipedia?
No not the Serbian wikipedia. En is not the English wikipedia it is the English language wikipedia. Just because there was once a country called England does not mean that the wikipedia belongs to that country. Instead wikipedias are divided by language. In this case the correct name for the language would probably be Serbo-Croatian.
This right here is the key the whole thread. Wikipedia sub-domains are seperated by written languages not nations. The goal should be to have the least amount of subdomains possible to concetrate reasources. When in doubt we should not create a subdomain.
The question I have is are we going to examine all current (or at least inactive) subdomains in the near future for merging possibilities?
Birgitte SB
Birgittee,
Dont put words in my mouth, it is rude thing to do. As this is not key it is just one fact in the history of Balkan. And Balkan is not UK. And this comparison just shows that you don't have a clue what you talk about.
Darko Bulatovic
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
In short, there are two options:
- to make Montenegrin Wikipedia; or - to make a conversion engine from Serbian, Croatian or Bosnian to Montenegrin variant.
In this issue (which is related to political linguistics) the main problem are preferences. From Southren Serbia to Istria all people will perfectly understand each other if they are talking in their own standards (in general, Croatian standard is a little bit more distant then others). But, not so small amount of preferences makes differences between standard languages. Plus, very good knowledge of one standard means that you may talk with others, but doesn't mean that you may write in other standard (even I have a good Slavistic bacground, I have a lot of problems to write in Croatian standard).
And everyone has right to: - call her/his language as (s)he wants; - to be educated in her/his native language.
And Wikipedia is about those rights.
--- Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
In short, there are two options:
- to make Montenegrin Wikipedia; or
- to make a conversion engine from Serbian, Croatian
or Bosnian to Montenegrin variant.
In this issue (which is related to political linguistics) the main problem are preferences. From Southren Serbia to Istria all people will perfectly understand each other if they are talking in their own standards (in general, Croatian standard is a little bit more distant then others). But, not so small amount of preferences makes differences between standard languages. Plus, very good knowledge of one standard means that you may talk with others, but doesn't mean that you may write in other standard (even I have a good Slavistic bacground, I have a lot of problems to write in Croatian standard).
And everyone has right to:
- call her/his language as (s)he wants;
- to be educated in her/his native language.
And Wikipedia is about those rights.
If this is about preferences how is different than all the variations of English spoken in the world? Each variation has it's own standards etc. And en.WP works quite well settling out which variety would be used for each article. It is a bad idea to unnecessarily divide reasources. Do you not understand how difficult it is to keep ontop of the basic adminstrative tasks in a small wiki? I think there needs to strong definitive reasons for creating a subdomain. If it is questionable don't create it.
Birgitte SB
Birgitte SB
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On 12/2/06, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
In short, there are two options:
- to make Montenegrin Wikipedia; or
- to make a conversion engine from Serbian, Croatian or Bosnian to
Montenegrin variant.
Or run a single wiki the way we do with british and american english.
And everyone has right to:
- call her/his language as (s)he wants;
Doesn't mean anyone else has to accept it.
- to be educated in her/his native language.
And Wikipedia is about those rights.
Nope. Not in the proposed mission statement and with good reason.
SJ Klein wrote:
Can we please have a separate list for language discussions, something like language-l@wikimedia.org ?
I think it got merged into wikipedia-l...
Mindspillage's law: As the length of an argument on wikipedia-l or foundation-l approaches infinity, the probability of it turning into a language debate approaches 1.
--- Darko Bulatovic mail@itam.ws wrote:
Birgitte SB wrote:
--- geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic mail@itam.ws wrote:
Today when war is over and we know everything
what
happen and we did go
peacefully for our freedom, you make you self
blind and you talk me
about working under Serbian wikipedia?
No not the Serbian wikipedia. En is not the
English
wikipedia it is the English language wikipedia. Just because
there
was once a country called England does not mean that the wikipedia belongs to that country. Instead wikipedias are divided by
language.
In this case the correct name for the language would probably be Serbo-Croatian.
This right here is the key the whole thread. Wikipedia sub-domains are seperated by written languages not nations. The goal should be to have
the
least amount of subdomains possible to concetrate reasources. When in doubt we should not create a subdomain.
The question I have is are we going to examine all current (or at least inactive) subdomains in the
near
future for merging possibilities?
Birgitte SB
Birgittee,
Dont put words in my mouth, it is rude thing to do. As this is not key it is just one fact in the history of Balkan. And Balkan is not UK. And this comparison just shows that you don't have a clue what you talk about.
Darko Bulatovic
_
I don't understand how I put words in you mouth. What I wrote about this being the key is my own opinion. I and I do believe basing languages subdomains off mutually intelligable written languages is the key.
Birgitte SB
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Birgitte SB wrote:
I don't understand how I put words in you mouth. What I wrote about this being the key is my own opinion. I and I do believe basing languages subdomains off mutually intelligable written languages is the key.
Birgitte SB
Birgitte,
If you find that taking out of context is right thing to do, no problem.
Darko Bulatovic
geni wrote:
On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic mail@itam.ws wrote:
mainly in English or Multilingual as France, Italian Russian, etc... In 99% there is no any of similar languages. That is not a wonder as Montenegro is very small market. beside English I can use Croat, Bosnian as even as Serbian. That is case as I was born in country (SFR Yugoslavia) where we all learned unified language.
Then why not continue to use it?
Because it those not exist any more.
... You need to find alibi to clear your self for not doing what you should? Or at least to ask for some facts that will show more clearly this topic. Instead you jump into conclusion. It is easier i know. But you denied my identity and identity of my people,Denied our own language forcing-suggesting to use language of different people.
According to your government the language of Montenegro is Serbian of the Ijekavian dialect. The Declaration of Montenegrin PEN Center doesn't claim it as anything more than a dialect.
According to the constitution (your source ) Montenegro is part of SR Yugoslavia. Do you claim that also? Please read draft for new constitution.
You talked all time about politics. And now lets talk about politics I know who I am and I know in which language I talk and you constantly deny that. How should I feel about this?
You should consider the possibility of transferring your understandable national pride to other things.
You could consider to stop telling me that language in which I talk don't exist.
You in this way support pro Miloshevic and national-chauvinism politic from Belgrade which denied natural right to have his own identity to anyone from former Yugoslavia.
Miloshevic is dead.
But not his politic which is sad.
It is ok by me I understand that you have some private business that you need to spare more time but please don't justify your self by using this kind of discussion(tv manuals, companies that don't use Montenegrin to translate,OS ...)as this case affect one (half million) people and one language.
No at most 22% of your country describes the language they speak as Montenegrin. That would be a little over 140K people.
So you admit that Montenegrin language exist? I don't follow you here?
On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic mail@itam.ws wrote:
Because it those not exist any more.
Lanaguages take more than a handfull of years to die.
According to the constitution (your source ) Montenegro is part of SR Yugoslavia. Do you claim that also? Please read draft for new constitution.
Is it written in english?
You could consider to stop telling me that language in which I talk don't exist.
I'm not trying to claim that. I'm putting forward a position that you are useing the wrong name for it.
But not his politic which is sad.
Last I cheacked his part wasn't doing to well in elections.
So you admit that Montenegrin language exist? I don't follow you here?
You claim half a million speakers. If we were to accept that Montenegrin does exist as a seperate language then at most it has little more than 150K speajkers. There is nowehere for half a million speakers to come from.
geni wrote:
On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic mail@itam.ws wrote:
Because it those not exist any more.
Lanaguages take more than a handfull of years to die.
According to the constitution (your source ) Montenegro is part of SR Yugoslavia. Do you claim that also? Please read draft for new constitution.
Is it written in english?
No but in last draft it was stated:
C(lan 15(Jezik i pismo)- U Crnoj Gori u slu`benoj upotrebi je crnogorski jezik. 15. Language - In montenegro in official usage is Montenegrin language.
You could consider to stop telling me that language in which I talk don't exist.
I'm not trying to claim that. I'm putting forward a position that you are useing the wrong name for it.
And I am putting forward the position that I have right to call my language as I think, and that you have same right for yours. And if I say that you don't have right to tell me that I call it with wrong name and that you are using the wrong name.... To where this leads? To separation? Divorce? No love? No happiness? No kids(any good)?
At least please respect right of people to call their language as they think it is appropriate. If you have some evidence that show different please share with me, and if it is just based on your impression, ok I will not comment it again.
But not his politic which is sad.
Last I cheacked his part wasn't doing to well in elections.
But radicals are very busty this days.... try to read some about them... I don't wish to talk anymore about politic I am not here because of that. Let talk about Montenegrin language.
So you admit that Montenegrin language exist? I don't follow you here?
You claim half a million speakers. If we were to accept that Montenegrin does exist as a seperate language then at most it has little more than 150K speajkers. There is nowehere for half a million speakers to come from.
I sad that this matter affect half of million. In that number are included speakers and listeners. And when new constitution comes this number will be greatly different in both speakers and listeners. One point here that last few decades showed very strange variations in data about Montenegro.
Darko Bulatovic
On 12/3/06, Darko Bulatovic mail@itam.ws wrote:
No but in last draft it was stated:
C(lan 15(Jezik i pismo)- U Crnoj Gori u slu`benoj upotrebi jecrnogorski jezik. 15. Language - In montenegro in official usage is Montenegrin language.
And yet the country is able to function without that. It would be very hard for the UK to function with german as the official langauge,
And I am putting forward the position that I have right to call my language as I think,
But no one else has to accept that name
and that you have same right for yours.
If I tried to rename my language to yorkshirese I think you would ignore that.
And if I say that you don't have right to tell me that I call it with wrong name and that you are using the wrong name.... To where this leads? To separation? Divorce? No love? No happiness? No kids(any good)?
At least please respect right of people to call their language as they think it is appropriate.
English has a somwhat limited history of careing about what the locals call their language ( just ask the germans)
I sad that this matter affect half of million. In that number are included speakers and listeners.
Considering the demographics on montenegro that is somewhat unlikely. If Montenegrin does exist as a seperate language most likely it is only spoken in that form in the centre of Montenegro
And when new constitution comes this number will be greatly different in both speakers and listeners.
That would only be posible if does not exist other than as a renameing of a form of Serbo-Croatian. Addopting a new constitution is unlikely to result in much of a linguistic shift in the population
On 01/12/06, Darko Bulatovic mail@itam.ws wrote:
David Gerard wrote:
On 01/12/06, Darko Bulatovic mail@itam.ws wrote:
I would like to see some of yours opinions regarding this issue as this looks very strange to me.
OK: Splitting Serbo-Croatian into three wikis was a ridiculous mistake, and does not justify compounding the error.
Do you think that negation of one language is much bigger mistake?
But it isn't a language. It's barely a distinct dialect.
- d.
David Gerard wrote:
On 01/12/06, Darko Bulatovic mail@itam.ws wrote:
David Gerard wrote:
On 01/12/06, Darko Bulatovic mail@itam.ws wrote:
I would like to see some of yours opinions regarding this issue as this looks very strange to me.
OK: Splitting Serbo-Croatian into three wikis was a ridiculous mistake, and does not justify compounding the error.
Do you think that negation of one language is much bigger mistake?
But it isn't a language. It's barely a distinct dialect.
- d.
Dialect of what? Serbian?
Darko Bulatovic
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org