Dear Wikimedia community,
We are proud and honoured to announce that a plan is in the works to found a new UK chapter of the Wikimedia Foundation. A lot of discussion has already taken place on IRC and we are ready to begin gathering support from the community. If you are interesting in being part of a new UK chapter, in whatever capacity (from sitting on the board, to cheering us on from the sidelines), please head over to http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK_v2.0 and let us know. Over the next few days we will gather names and put some finishing touches to the plans. An election will be held for the initial board, who will then oversee the process of founding the company and accepting application to membership. They will then organise an AGM to formally elect a new board to take the chapter forward to begin fundraising and supporting the Wikimedia community in the UK in whatever way we can.
This is an exciting time for the UK community and I hope you will all support us in it.
Kind regards,
Thomas "Tango" Dalton Tom "Cfp" Holden River Tarnell Alex Newman Paul Williams Geniw
I am probably talking out of the top of my head, but as a Pom now living in Australia who vists the UK frequently and hopes to meet up with UK wikimedians on one of these visits, I am concerned about all this.
I wonder why you want to be a "company limited by guarantee"? Is that the only way. Would the Clapham Common Tiddlywinks Clus be a company limited by guarantee? Or are there simpler processes. Wikimedia Australia Inc is incorporated as an Association in one State (Victoria). This is what clubs and associations do. It is much simpler than being a company of any kind and it still protects the officers and committee members from liability. Is there nothing similar in the UK?
Best wishes from the Oz chapter for a successful rebirth.
Brian.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 23:07:36 +0100, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Wikimedia community,
We are proud and honoured to announce that a plan is in the works to found a new UK chapter of the Wikimedia Foundation. A lot of discussion has already taken place on IRC and we are ready to begin gathering support from the community. If you are interesting in being part of a new UK chapter, in whatever capacity (from sitting on the board, to cheering us on from the sidelines), please head over to http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK_v2.0 and let us know. Over the next few days we will gather names and put some finishing touches to the plans. An election will be held for the initial board, who will then oversee the process of founding the company and accepting application to membership. They will then organise an AGM to formally elect a new board to take the chapter forward to begin fundraising and supporting the Wikimedia community in the UK in whatever way we can.
This is an exciting time for the UK community and I hope you will all support us in it.
Kind regards,
Thomas "Tango" Dalton Tom "Cfp" Holden River Tarnell Alex Newman Paul Williams Geniw
Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l@wikimedia.org http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
On 28/08/2008, Brian Salter-Duke b_duke@bigpond.net.au wrote:
I am probably talking out of the top of my head, but as a Pom now living in Australia who vists the UK frequently and hopes to meet up with UK wikimedians on one of these visits, I am concerned about all this.
I wonder why you want to be a "company limited by guarantee"? Is that the only way. Would the Clapham Common Tiddlywinks Clus be a company limited by guarantee? Or are there simpler processes. Wikimedia Australia Inc is incorporated as an Association in one State (Victoria). This is what clubs and associations do. It is much simpler than being a company of any kind and it still protects the officers and committee members from liability. Is there nothing similar in the UK?
What does "incorporated as an Association" mean? In the UK, an association is a type of *un*incorporated charity and offers little or no protection for the board. I take it Australia uses different terminology. There is a new type of charity in the process of being designed, a Charitable Incorporated Organisation, which gives you the advantages of being a company without all the extra paperwork, but that won't be available for at least 6 months by the look of it. We can, however, convert to it once it is available - it will apparently be designed to make conversion quite simple. At the moment, however, a company limited by guarantee is pretty much the only option that protects the board.
Best wishes from the Oz chapter for a successful rebirth.
Much appreciated, thank you.
On Fri, August 29, 2008 01:03, Thomas Dalton wrote:
At the moment, however, a company limited by guarantee is pretty much the only option that protects the board.
The issue is not so much one of protecting the Board (though that is, of course, a good thing!) but that with a non-incorporated body all monies are deemed to be the personal assets of those involved (bad for tax) and hence people - especially possible large donors - will not give money as it has no 'independence'. A 'Body corporate' is the only way to protect funds with proper disclosure and financial security (and Directors are personally liable if company funds are misused too).
Alison
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 6:20 AM, Alison Wheeler <wikimedia@alisonwheeler.com
wrote:
On Fri, August 29, 2008 01:03, Thomas Dalton wrote:
At the moment, however, a company limited by guarantee is pretty much the only option that protects the board.
The issue is not so much one of protecting the Board (though that is, of course, a good thing!) but that with a non-incorporated body all monies are deemed to be the personal assets of those involved (bad for tax) and hence people - especially possible large donors - will not give money as it has no 'independence'. A 'Body corporate' is the only way to protect funds with proper disclosure and financial security (and Directors are personally liable if company funds are misused too).
Assuming the organization has a need to hold assets and collect funds for non-immediate use in the first place.
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 2:06 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.comwrote:
Assuming the organization has a need to hold assets and collect funds for non-immediate use in the first place.
Which it certainly will. You can't fundraise specifically for each individual activity just before it happens.
Depends on the activities, and whether they'll be funded by participants or by strangers.
2008/8/29 Anthony wikimail@inbox.org:
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 2:06 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.comwrote:
Assuming the organization has a need to hold assets and collect funds for non-immediate use in the first place.
Which it certainly will. You can't fundraise specifically for each individual activity just before it happens.
Depends on the activities, and whether they'll be funded by participants or by strangers.
If activities were all funded by the participants, we would be very limited in what we could do. There would be little need for a chapter, it would serve as nothing more than a source of fancy titles.
2008/8/29 Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com:
2008/8/29 Anthony wikimail@inbox.org:
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 2:06 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.comwrote:
Assuming the organization has a need to hold assets and collect funds for non-immediate use in the first place.
Which it certainly will. You can't fundraise specifically for each individual activity just before it happens.
Depends on the activities, and whether they'll be funded by participants or by strangers.
If activities were all funded by the participants, we would be very limited in what we could do. There would be little need for a chapter, it would serve as nothing more than a source of fancy titles.
Fancy titles will get you the ability to talk to people we would not otherwise be able to talk to.
If activities were all funded by the participants, we would be very limited in what we could do. There would be little need for a chapter, it would serve as nothing more than a source of fancy titles.
Fancy titles will get you the ability to talk to people we would not otherwise be able to talk to.
Hence why I said "little need", not "no need". They can come in handy, but are a pretty minor part of what having a chapter is all about.
2008/8/29 Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com:
If activities were all funded by the participants, we would be very limited in what we could do. There would be little need for a chapter, it would serve as nothing more than a source of fancy titles.
Fancy titles will get you the ability to talk to people we would not otherwise be able to talk to.
Hence why I said "little need", not "no need". They can come in handy, but are a pretty minor part of what having a chapter is all about.
Well consider suppose we wanted to get access to a collection to photograph it. Titles may get you that individuals not so much.
So far the only thing we have managed to organise without a chapter are meetups. Reason being is that as soon as you start dealing with third parties you hit the "who are you?" question.
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.comwrote:
2008/8/29 Anthony wikimail@inbox.org:
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 2:06 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
Assuming the organization has a need to hold assets and collect funds
for
non-immediate use in the first place.
Which it certainly will. You can't fundraise specifically for each individual activity just before it happens.
Depends on the activities, and whether they'll be funded by participants
or
by strangers.
If activities were all funded by the participants, we would be very limited in what we could do. There would be little need for a chapter, it would serve as nothing more than a source of fancy titles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Takes_Manhattan seems to me to be a perfect example of what can be done with activities funded by the participants. But yeah, there's little need for a chapter to do that kind of stuff.
What types of activities do you have planned that would require outside funding? How do you intend to get that funding? And why shouldn't this activity be pursued by the WMF, instead of the WMUK?
2008/8/30 Anthony wikimail@inbox.org:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Takes_Manhattan seems to me to be a perfect example of what can be done with activities funded by the participants. But yeah, there's little need for a chapter to do that kind of stuff.
So something organised by two chapters of "Free Culture @" and with further help from creative commons doesn't need a chapter? While there are other structures that could do that kind of thing the fact is they haven't.
What types of activities do you have planned that would require outside funding?
At present none because no such funding exists. Nor does any chapter exist to do anything with it. Given the failure of the previous chapter to complete setup distractions from the goal of setup are not exactly welcome at this time.
Still if you insist:
1)The UK has some very large undigitalised photographic archives that are public domain. Digitalised the material would be of significant value to both wikimedia projects and the UK public in general (he's an aerial photo of where you live from 1948). Even with volunteer labor there are equipment costs to consider.
2)There are cases where free access is unlikely with various organisations being very controlling of their archives.
3)The usual consideration of local servers while direct hosting is a very bad idea there are other things that could be done with them.
4)sponsoring programs similar to the SOS schools CD.
There are others. Finding ways to spend money is never hard.
How do you intend to get that funding?
Donation drives, memberships, premium memberships, sales of items using wikipedia logo. There are various ways.
And why shouldn't this activity be pursued by the WMF, instead of the WMUK?
An American charity acting within the UK creates issues. In addition the WMF has other priorities and has expressed no desire to pursue such activities anywhere.
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 11:22 PM, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
2008/8/30 Anthony wikimail@inbox.org:
What types of activities do you have planned that would require outside funding?
At present none because no such funding exists. Nor does any chapter exist to do anything with it. Given the failure of the previous chapter to complete setup distractions from the goal of setup are not exactly welcome at this time.
I think you got the cart before the horse. Who's going to donate money to someone who doesn't have any plans for what to do with it? How can you set up a chapter when you don't have any idea what its purpose is?
Still if you insist:
Thanks. My questions weren't meant as rhetorical. I'm truly interested in the answers.
There are others. Finding ways to spend money is never hard.
Well, yeah, but finding ways to spend money that are going to attract strangers to donate money is, at least it is to me!
On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 12:11 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.comwrote:
What types of activities do you have planned that would require outside funding?
Whatever the community can think of. I haven't given it a great deal of though myself in anything more than general terms. I see the chapter as existing to facilitate the ideas of the community, there's no need for those running the chapter to come up with the ideas.
I'm sorry, but that seems incredibly strange to me. It sounds like a Monty Python skit. "Why do you want to form a chapter?" "Because that's the only way to protect funds." "Why do you need funds?" "Because if we didn't have funds, the chapter wouldn't serve any purpose." "So what is the chapter going to do?" "Not sure yet, we need to set up the chapter in order to figure something out."
Good luck though, honestly. And I hope you don't take my last paragraph as rude. I know I'm exaggerating what you've said in this thread, and taking things a bit out of context.
Anthony
2008/8/30 Anthony wikimail@inbox.org:
I think you got the cart before the horse. Who's going to donate money to someone who doesn't have any plans for what to do with it?
Strangely we don't appear to be asking for donations at this point.
How can you set up a chapter when you don't have any idea what its purpose is?
Need any more straw?
Well, yeah, but finding ways to spend money that are going to attract strangers to donate money is, at least it is to me!
Which is why we will deal with the issue at the proper time rather than when our resources are focused elsewhere.
I'm sorry, but that seems incredibly strange to me. It sounds like a Monty Python skit. "Why do you want to form a chapter?" "Because that's the only way to protect funds." "Why do you need funds?" "Because if we didn't have funds, the chapter wouldn't serve any purpose." "So what is the chapter going to do?" "Not sure yet, we need to set up the chapter in order to figure something out."
Good luck though, honestly. And I hope you don't take my last paragraph as rude. I know I'm exaggerating what you've said in this thread, and taking things a bit out of context.
Basically I'm going on faith at the moment. I have faith in the community to make good use of the work I and others are putting in getting the chapter set up. We haven't spent time doing anything to verify that faith, so perhaps I'm completely wrong and we'll end up with an empty shell that never does anything, but personally I think that's unlikely.
I this conversation rather strange, you seem to be talking as if this is a new idea. Plenty of other countries have chapters and make good use of them, if you want to know what chapters can usefully do you would be better of looking at them rather than asking us. We'll do pretty much the same things, just in a different country.
On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.comwrote:
I this conversation rather strange, you seem to be talking as if this is a new idea. Plenty of other countries have chapters and make good use of them, if you want to know what chapters can usefully do you would be better of looking at them rather than asking us. We'll do pretty much the same things, just in a different country.
Well, my initial questions were directed at everyone, not just at you. I only started directing my questions primarily at you because you were the one who responded to me.
The impression I've gotten is that the chapters are mainly just used for social networking and meetups. The German chapter seems to be doing a bit more, but I don't know if they get significant donations from non-participants, and, well, most of the information on the chapter is in a language I don't speak. This impression might very well be wrong. Finding out information about Wikimedia matters is extremely difficult. I try to keep up with all the blogs and mailing lists and unofficial and official websites, but I still don't know more than a small fraction of what's going on.
2008/9/1 Anthony wikimail@inbox.org:
The impression I've gotten is that the chapters are mainly just used for social networking and meetups. The German chapter seems to be doing a bit more, but I don't know if they get significant donations from non-participants, and, well, most of the information on the chapter is in a language I don't speak. This impression might very well be wrong. Finding out information about Wikimedia matters is extremely difficult. I try to keep up with all the blogs and mailing lists and unofficial and official websites, but I still don't know more than a small fraction of what's going on.
You will probably find this page enlightening.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/Summaries
Brianna
What types of activities do you have planned that would require outside funding?
Whatever the community can think of. I haven't given it a great deal of though myself in anything more than general terms. I see the chapter as existing to facilitate the ideas of the community, there's no need for those running the chapter to come up with the ideas.
How do you intend to get that funding? And why shouldn't this activity be pursued by the WMF, instead of the WMUK?
The same as any other charity: donations from people that support our cause. Being a UK charity means donations from the UK are tax deductible. The way the UK does it (other countries may have similar schemes, I don't know), is that when we receive a donation of, say, £100 we then submit a form to the taxman and he gives us another £25 (or somewhere around that figure). That's £25 the WMF could never get.
Anthony wrote:
What types of activities do you have planned that would require outside funding? How do you intend to get that funding? And why shouldn't this activity be pursued by the WMF, instead of the WMUK?
In case this isn't just trolling: Whatever the members and / or the community of UK Wikimedians wishes - for example but not limited to the activities the German chapter have. Organising an event in and with a large university causes expenses in the preparatory stage even if the event as such is funded by the partnering university. Staffing a booth at a trade fair can be done by volunteers, printing a few posters and brochures needs funding.
Maybe in the future there will be a chance to have staff and an office for Wikimedia UK in London, such as the German chapter has in Frankfurt (moving to Berlin these days).
An incorporated chapter is mandatory to accept donations to fund these and other activities.
Ciao Henning
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org