(splitting as per Richard request)
Question for the Wikisource folks: would Project Grants be a way to get resources for you? If you can design a project and find people with the right skills, that avenue might be beneficial for you. I have a software developer in mind who would probably like to work with you if resources
are
available and a project has the support of the community and WMF.
Pine
Hi Pine. My personal answer to your question is: no. Because we've already tried that, and we did barely scratch the surface of the issues. I'm on mobile and cannot provide you details and references, but in the past years we used both IEG and Google Summer of Code for funding developers, and we had few successinaddressing main issues. Also, tools that worked and were helpful are now abandoned. What wikisource lacks is development to core software, not only external, cool tools, which are fine but in the end don't really solve problems.
I can elaborate further and bore you with details but, ina nutshell, we just need commitment from people who can bring theirlines ofcode into production. As Wikisource is formally a Wikimedia project, and provides its tiny contribution to the mission and also to fundraising, I would expect a commitment of this sort coming from WMF.
Aubrey
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The initiative is good also to train the community how to approach the tools' development.
I think, and this is not a comment for Wikisource for it's a general comment, that a tool is not a simple piece of software running for a bunch of things.
The name "tool" is correct because is something available for a use: it can used or not used.
Instead a "service" is a combination of tools, processes and people.
Good tools are important to build a good service but are not sufficient.
The real problem is that people miss always these three aspects and in addition there is a wrong approach of programmers to build a tool with a bad planning and analysis.
Several PM frameworks say that 80% of the time must be dedicated to plan, because a good planning is mandatory for a good result.
The results of this survey are interesting, but this is a simple "initiation process", it means that the better evaluation must follow.
So it's correct that a simple tool doesn't solve a problem.
Kind regards
On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 7:54 AM, Andrea Zanni zanni.andrea84@gmail.com wrote:
(splitting as per Richard request)
Question for the Wikisource folks: would Project Grants be a way to get resources for you? If you can design a project and find people with the right skills, that avenue might be beneficial for you. I have a software developer in mind who would probably like to work with you if resources
are
available and a project has the support of the community and WMF.
Pine
Hi Pine. My personal answer to your question is: no. Because we've already tried that, and we did barely scratch the surface of the issues. I'm on mobile and cannot provide you details and references, but in the past years we used both IEG and Google Summer of Code for funding developers, and we had few successinaddressing main issues. Also, tools that worked and were helpful are now abandoned. What wikisource lacks is development to core software, not only external, cool tools, which are fine but in the end don't really solve problems.
I can elaborate further and bore you with details but, ina nutshell, we just need commitment from people who can bring theirlines ofcode into production. As Wikisource is formally a Wikimedia project, and provides its tiny contribution to the mission and also to fundraising, I would expect a commitment of this sort coming from WMF.
Aubrey
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Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Hoi, Indeed :) When an environment does not have proper services set up, when there is no thought on how the resulting product is to be used, even those services are of no use.
Wikisource and all its workflows is not the end product for instance. The end product is for people to read the works that have been so meticulously and often lovingly been made available. It is sad as it seems that the use of the end users is never really considered.
Wikipedia has the obvious advantage of instant gratification. You write, you save and the world can read it. All other projects with the exception of Wiktionary do not have much in the sense of end user usage consideration. Thanks, GerardM
On 17 December 2015 at 10:09, Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com wrote:
The initiative is good also to train the community how to approach the tools' development.
I think, and this is not a comment for Wikisource for it's a general comment, that a tool is not a simple piece of software running for a bunch of things.
The name "tool" is correct because is something available for a use: it can used or not used.
Instead a "service" is a combination of tools, processes and people.
Good tools are important to build a good service but are not sufficient.
The real problem is that people miss always these three aspects and in addition there is a wrong approach of programmers to build a tool with a bad planning and analysis.
Several PM frameworks say that 80% of the time must be dedicated to plan, because a good planning is mandatory for a good result.
The results of this survey are interesting, but this is a simple "initiation process", it means that the better evaluation must follow.
So it's correct that a simple tool doesn't solve a problem.
Kind regards
On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 7:54 AM, Andrea Zanni zanni.andrea84@gmail.com wrote:
(splitting as per Richard request)
Question for the Wikisource folks: would Project Grants be a way to get resources for you? If you can design a project and find people with the right skills, that avenue might be beneficial for you. I have a
software
developer in mind who would probably like to work with you if resources
are
available and a project has the support of the community and WMF.
Pine
Hi Pine. My personal answer to your question is: no. Because we've
already
tried that, and we did barely scratch the surface of the issues. I'm on mobile and cannot provide you details and references, but in the past years we used both IEG and Google Summer of Code for funding developers, and we had few successinaddressing main issues. Also, tools that worked and were helpful are now abandoned. What wikisource lacks is development to core software, not only external, cool tools, which are fine but in the end don't really solve problems.
I can elaborate further and bore you with details but, ina nutshell, we just need commitment from people who can bring theirlines ofcode into production. As Wikisource is formally a Wikimedia project, and provides
its
tiny contribution to the mission and also to fundraising, I would expect
a
commitment of this sort coming from WMF.
Aubrey
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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-- Ilario Valdelli Wikimedia CH Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera Switzerland - 8008 Zürich Wikipedia: Ilario https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario Skype: valdelli Facebook: Ilario Valdelli https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli Twitter: Ilario Valdelli https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
Tel: +41764821371 http://www.wikimedia.ch _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hi, while I know that this is not the solution to your problems, let me say that if you want a Wikisource focus area at the Wikimedia Hackathon in Jerusalem (31 March - 3 April), the time to decide this is now, and the place is https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T119703
On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 7:54 AM, Andrea Zanni zanni.andrea84@gmail.com wrote:
What wikisource lacks is development to core software, not only external, cool tools, which are fine but in the end don't really solve problems.
Some of the "core software" can be developed with the help of IEGs, developer outreach programs, and hackathons. These activities are not reserved for "external, cool tools" only.
One step that could be useful regardless would be to reflect the most urgent/important "core software" development needs at https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/wikisource/board/ , in epic/task units, associating the actual projects related to them.
I can elaborate further and bore you with details but, ina nutshell, we
just need commitment from people who can bring theirlines ofcode into production. As Wikisource is formally a Wikimedia project, and provides its tiny contribution to the mission and also to fundraising, I would expect a commitment of this sort coming from WMF.
I think the WMF would also like to have a clear strategy about the developer investment required for Wikisource and other projects with specific needs. In the next months we are going to discuss the Annual Plan for July 2016-June 2017, and I recommend the Wikisource community to make their voice heard in that context.
Meanwhile, the tiny and humble Developer Relations team is happy to help you in the practical and pragmatic ways that we can help you right now. :)
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