A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise, because the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this. At the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then, there have been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors.
No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the most common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply refers you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer (using an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPage&country=NL&uselang=en&utm_medium=spontaneous&utm_source=fr-redir&utm_campaign=spontaneous only allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply sends you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment.
What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a legal swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no longer required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get temporarily suspended?
If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send the donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in the local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers both iDEAL and IBAN http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland).
One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't quite get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and that this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go through all kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip bank transfer...
Best,
Lodewijk
Moreover, because fundraising reports are now so stingy, we can't even know the (per-country) effects of such decisions (cc fundraiser@), hence public accountability is impossible. * https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fundraising/2013-14_Report... * https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fundraising_2012/Report#Totals_by_count...
Nemo
Lodewijk, 17/11/2014 20:28:
A while back now, the chapters were no longer allowed to fundraise, because the Wikimedia Foundation argued they would be better able to do this. At the time, this sounded somewhat reasonable. However, since then, there have been some disturbing developments - at least for Dutch donors.
No longer it is possible to pay electronically (iDEAL, one of the most common methods is no longer supported - 'electronic banking' simply refers you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer (using an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page https://donate.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:FundraiserLandingPage&country=NL&uselang=en&utm_medium=spontaneous&utm_source=fr-redir&utm_campaign=spontaneous only allows credit card and paypal, and the 'other ways to give' simply sends you to the helpdesk if you want to make a bank transfer payment.
What is the reasoning behind this? Have bank transfers become a legal swamp? Are there statistics suggesting that this method was no longer required by donors? Did the European bank account somehow get temporarily suspended?
If it has become so hard to donate, maybe it makes more sense to send the donors to the local chapter pages where they can actually donate in the local suitable methods (in this case, Wikimedia Netherlands offers both iDEAL and IBAN http://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/doneren-aan-wikimedia-nederland).
One of the Dutch OTRS team members asked for elaboration, but didn't quite get a satisfying answer. I hope this is a temporary situation, and that this threshold will be removed again. It would be sad if we go through all kind of trouble to enable long tail methods like bitcoin, but skip bank transfer...
Best,
Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer (using an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account to an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex and expensive.
There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a fair chunk of the globe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ± 337 million Europeans , people can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without additional expenses.
Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments to an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly not free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to total other payment systems.
A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people using cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a cheque since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. Extinct.
But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - when you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer made for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so good to be willing to make an donation.
Walter
This strikes me as yet another example of a WMF department forgetting to inform relevant stakeholders as soon as is appropriate, when decisions are made...
In just the last few days, on this mailing list alone, there have been controversies on: - not telling chapters' treasurers that a team had been hired and a financial auditing process initiated (the Finance Fellows), until after it had already begun. - Not informing the Russians that their country's donations were no longer accepted, leaving them to fend off angry media/donors. - Not informing the Dutch that donations in their country's most popular online money-transfer system was being temporarily stopped.
None of these things needed to be controversial or a problem if they'd been explained to the relevant people up-front. None of them required advanced notice if that was not possible for operational reasons (although it would have been nice). All of them are the WMF's preogative to make those decisions.
But, crucially, ALL of them have people in the Wikimedia movement who are affected by the decision. According to the complaints raised on this list, None of those affected people were informed as soon as reasonably possible. Furthermore their initial, private, enquiries produced apparently-unsatisfactory answers, leading to them feeling forced to raise their concerns here.
All of this chips-away at community good-will, makes the WMF feel under-siege (and I do acknowledge my own contribution to that feeling by this email, for which I apologise), and creates a disjointed public-face when press/donors/readers ask community members "what's happening with xyz?" and the community-member forced to reply "this is the first I've heard about it".
To help avoid similar things happening in the future, can I propose that any time a public-facing decision is being made by a WMF team, the question "who in the community is likely to be affected by this decision?" be asked as a standard procedure. Then take the time to proactively inform those people. (Some WMF teams do this really well already, I want to acknowledge!) In the examples above that would be the treasurers' list, the Russian media contacts, and the Dutch OTRS team. Ideally those people could be involved/consulted in the decision itself (but that's not always possible) and they will be able to help respond to the issue in the appropriate way. We're all on the same team...
To amplify:
Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard, default, baseline way to make payments at all.
After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN) account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been converted to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support IBAN.
Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or paypal accounts.
Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline requirement.
sincerely, Kim
On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer (using an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account to an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex and expensive.
There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a fair chunk of the globe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans , people can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without additional expenses.
Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments to an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly not free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to total other payment systems.
A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people using cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a cheque since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. Extinct.
But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - when you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer made for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so good to be willing to make an donation.
Walter
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It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not 100% sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend - I am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why the WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they choose not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and as Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all speculation.
I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there was a few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being fed canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank transfer that cannot be disclosed...
Best, Lodewijk
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning kim@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:
To amplify:
Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard, default, baseline way to make payments at all.
After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN) account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been converted to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support IBAN.
Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or paypal accounts.
Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline requirement.
sincerely, Kim
On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
(using
an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account to an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex and expensive.
There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a fair chunk of the globe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans , people can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without additional expenses.
Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments to an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly not free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to total other payment systems.
A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people using cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a cheque since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. Extinct.
But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - when you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer made for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so good to be willing to make an donation.
Walter
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Interestingly I've just received a fundraising email localised to the UK which doesn't offer any opportunity to give by direct debit. This is the main form of regular giving in the UK, and the alternative that is offered (regular gifts via credit card) is generally deprecated as it gives the donor far less control over their money.
I know the WMF used to have a solution to handle more payment methods - I wonder if that's been discontinued for reasons of cost/simplicity?
(The email also doesn't appear to include any of the learning about the right ask amounts to ask for monthly gifts in the UK from the 2011 campaign but that might be my fault for not publishing those results ;) ) On 22 Nov 2014 07:42, "Lodewijk" lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not 100% sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend - I am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why the WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they choose not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and as Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all speculation.
I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there was a few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being fed canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank transfer that cannot be disclosed...
Best, Lodewijk
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning kim@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:
To amplify:
Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard, default, baseline way to make payments at all.
After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN) account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been converted to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support IBAN.
Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or paypal accounts.
Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline requirement.
sincerely, Kim
On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
(using
an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account to an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex
and
expensive.
There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a fair chunk of the globe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans , people can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without additional expenses.
Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments to an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly not free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to total other payment systems.
A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people using cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a
cheque
since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. Extinct.
But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - when you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer made for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so
good
to be willing to make an donation.
Walter
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Just following up,
Has WMNL now received the sought information?
sincerely, Kim Bruning
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:
It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not 100% sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend - I am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why the WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they choose not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and as Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all speculation.
I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there was a few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being fed canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank transfer that cannot be disclosed...
Best, Lodewijk
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning kim@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:
To amplify:
Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard, default, baseline way to make payments at all.
After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN) account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been converted to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support IBAN.
Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or paypal accounts.
Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline requirement.
sincerely, Kim
On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
(using
an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account to an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex and expensive.
There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a fair chunk of the globe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans , people can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without additional expenses.
Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments to an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly not free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to total other payment systems.
A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people using cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a cheque since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History. Extinct.
But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF - when you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer made for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so good to be willing to make an donation.
Walter
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https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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To clarify: I was looking for information from my capacity as a volunteer - I don't know if WMNL did or did not receive any information whatsoever.
I can only say that I did not receive a satisfying answer - but that should be no surprise.
Best, Lodewijk
On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 2:04 PM, Kim Bruning kim@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:
Just following up,
Has WMNL now received the sought information?
sincerely, Kim Bruning
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:
It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not 100% sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend - I am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why the WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they
choose
not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and as Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all speculation.
I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there was a few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being fed canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank transfer that cannot be disclosed...
Best, Lodewijk
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning kim@bruning.xs4all.nl
wrote:
To amplify:
Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard, default, baseline way to make payments at all.
After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN) account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been
converted
to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support
IBAN.
Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or
paypal
accounts.
Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline requirement.
sincerely, Kim
On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
(using
an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account
to
an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex
and
expensive.
There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a fair chunk of the globe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans ,
people
can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without additional expenses.
Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments
to
an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly
not
free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to total other payment systems.
A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people
using
cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a
cheque
since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History.
Extinct.
But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF -
when
you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer
made
for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so
good
to be willing to make an donation.
Walter
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The day before yesterday I was presented a fundraising banner in Switzerland which redirects to the donation page of Wmf, contrary the chapters page.
Rupert On Nov 26, 2014 3:18 PM, "Kim Bruning" kim@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:
Just following up,
Has WMNL now received the sought information?
sincerely, Kim Bruning
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:
It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not 100% sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend - I am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why the WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they
choose
not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and as Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all speculation.
I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there was a few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being fed canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank transfer that cannot be disclosed...
Best, Lodewijk
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning kim@bruning.xs4all.nl
wrote:
To amplify:
Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard, default, baseline way to make payments at all.
After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN) account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been
converted
to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support
IBAN.
Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or
paypal
accounts.
Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline requirement.
sincerely, Kim
On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
(using
an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account
to
an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex
and
expensive.
There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a fair chunk of the globe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans ,
people
can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without additional expenses.
Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments
to
an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly
not
free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to total other payment systems.
A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people
using
cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a
cheque
since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History.
Extinct.
But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF -
when
you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer
made
for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so
good
to be willing to make an donation.
Walter
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https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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I just try and I am randomly redirected to the localize page or the WMF page…..
Le 27 nov. 2014 à 09:20, rupert THURNER rupert.thurner@gmail.com a écrit :
The day before yesterday I was presented a fundraising banner in Switzerland which redirects to the donation page of Wmf, contrary the chapters page.
Rupert On Nov 26, 2014 3:18 PM, "Kim Bruning" kim@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:
Just following up,
Has WMNL now received the sought information?
sincerely, Kim Bruning
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:
It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not 100% sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend - I am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why the WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they
choose
not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and as Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all speculation.
I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there was a few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being fed canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank transfer that cannot be disclosed...
Best, Lodewijk
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning kim@bruning.xs4all.nl
wrote:
To amplify:
Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the standard, default, baseline way to make payments at all.
After registering a business, the very next action is to open an (IBAN) account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been
converted
to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support
IBAN.
Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or
paypal
accounts.
Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline requirement.
sincerely, Kim
On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
(using
an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account
to
an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex
and
expensive.
There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a fair chunk of the globe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans ,
people
can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without additional expenses.
Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments
to
an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly
not
free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to total other payment systems.
A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people
using
cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a
cheque
since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History.
Extinct.
But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF -
when
you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer
made
for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so
good
to be willing to make an donation.
Walter
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https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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All,
The local chapter processes payments in Switzerland and manages fundraising banners and payment systems implementation. WMF is not running fundraising banners in Switzerland.
If you spot any problems or issues, please do inform the local chapter.
Thanks, Pats
On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 12:35 AM, "charles andrès (WMCH)" < charles.andres.wmch@gmail.com> wrote:
I just try and I am randomly redirected to the localize page or the WMF page…..
Le 27 nov. 2014 à 09:20, rupert THURNER rupert.thurner@gmail.com a
écrit :
The day before yesterday I was presented a fundraising banner in Switzerland which redirects to the donation page of Wmf, contrary the chapters page.
Rupert On Nov 26, 2014 3:18 PM, "Kim Bruning" kim@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:
Just following up,
Has WMNL now received the sought information?
sincerely, Kim Bruning
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:
It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not
100%
sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend
- I
am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why
the
WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they
choose
not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this, and
as
Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer being allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all speculation.
I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there
was a
few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being
fed
canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that and there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank transfer that cannot be disclosed...
Best, Lodewijk
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning kim@bruning.xs4all.nl
wrote:
To amplify:
Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the
standard,
default, baseline way to make payments at all.
After registering a business, the very next action is to open an
(IBAN)
account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been
converted
to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support
IBAN.
Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or
paypal
accounts.
Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline requirement.
sincerely, Kim
On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote:
Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk:
> you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank transfer
(using
> an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page
Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very different from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account
to
an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where complex
and
expensive.
There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now.
The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in a fair chunk of the globe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans ,
people
can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without additional expenses.
Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international payments
to
an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly
not
free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation.
The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit card.
But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used to total other payment systems.
A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people
using
cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember my dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a
cheque
since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History.
Extinct.
But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF -
when
you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer
made
for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so
good
to be willing to make an donation.
Walter
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https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Hi Pats,
maybe as a little background: Charles Andres, who you're responding to, is actually an employee of Wikimedia CH. Your response might still be valid - I can't judge that - but it sounds odd to me as a relative outsider :)
Best, Lodewijk
On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 11:45 PM, Patricia Pena ppena@wikimedia.org wrote:
All,
The local chapter processes payments in Switzerland and manages fundraising banners and payment systems implementation. WMF is not running fundraising banners in Switzerland.
If you spot any problems or issues, please do inform the local chapter.
Thanks, Pats
On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 12:35 AM, "charles andrès (WMCH)" < charles.andres.wmch@gmail.com> wrote:
I just try and I am randomly redirected to the localize page or the WMF page…..
Le 27 nov. 2014 à 09:20, rupert THURNER rupert.thurner@gmail.com a
écrit :
The day before yesterday I was presented a fundraising banner in Switzerland which redirects to the donation page of Wmf, contrary the chapters page.
Rupert On Nov 26, 2014 3:18 PM, "Kim Bruning" kim@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:
Just following up,
Has WMNL now received the sought information?
sincerely, Kim Bruning
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:
It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not
100%
sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend
- I
am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why
the
WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they
choose
not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this,
and
as
Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer
being
allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all speculation.
I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there
was a
few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being
fed
canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that
and
there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank transfer that cannot be disclosed...
Best, Lodewijk
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning kim@bruning.xs4all.nl
wrote:
To amplify:
Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the
standard,
default, baseline way to make payments at all.
After registering a business, the very next action is to open an
(IBAN)
account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been
converted
to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN.
If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support
IBAN.
Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or
paypal
accounts.
Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone.
iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline requirement.
sincerely, Kim
On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote: > Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk: > >> you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank
transfer
(using >> an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page > > Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very
different
> from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account
to
> an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where
complex
and
> expensive. > > There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has > never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now. > > The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in
a
> fair chunk of the globe. > >
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
> > Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans ,
people
> can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without > additional expenses. > > Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international
payments
to
> an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly
not
> free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation. > > > The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. > Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit
card.
> > But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used
to
> total other payment systems. > > A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people
using
> cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember
my
> dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a
cheque
> since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History.
Extinct.
> > But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF -
when
> you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer
made
> for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so
good
> to be willing to make an donation. > > Walter > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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On 28/11/14 23:49, Lodewijk wrote:
maybe as a little background: Charles Andres, who you're responding to, is actually an employee of Wikimedia CH. Your response might still be valid - I can't judge that - but it sounds odd to me as a relative outsider :)
Indeed, I think Patricia missed the point of Rupert and Charles' emails. I have just tested myself from a computer on a Swiss IP address, opening 20 times the donation page, I get about half of the time the WM CH landing page, and the other half the WMF landing page.
There is nothing WM CH can do, it is a problem with the redirection link on the WMF servers -- and it is obviously pretty annoying for us (WM CH). So far, we haven't heard anything from the WMF after Rupert first spotted the problem (thanks !).
Frédéric
On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 11:45 PM, Patricia Pena ppena@wikimedia.org wrote:
All,
The local chapter processes payments in Switzerland and manages fundraising banners and payment systems implementation. WMF is not running fundraising banners in Switzerland.
If you spot any problems or issues, please do inform the local chapter.
Thanks, Pats
On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 12:35 AM, "charles andrès (WMCH)" < charles.andres.wmch@gmail.com> wrote:
I just try and I am randomly redirected to the localize page or the WMF page…..
Le 27 nov. 2014 à 09:20, rupert THURNER rupert.thurner@gmail.com a
écrit :
The day before yesterday I was presented a fundraising banner in Switzerland which redirects to the donation page of Wmf, contrary the chapters page.
Rupert On Nov 26, 2014 3:18 PM, "Kim Bruning" kim@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:
Just following up,
Has WMNL now received the sought information?
sincerely, Kim Bruning
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 08:42:01AM +0100, Lodewijk wrote:
It seems everyone agrees it is an important method (although I'm not
100%
sure that the US based people running the fundraiser fully comprehend
- I
am assuming this is the case), but there seems to be some reason why
the
WMF chooses to not make this option easily available. A reason they
choose
not to disclose, but to be fuzzy about. I'm very sorry about this,
and
as
Liam says, this fits in a trend with the Russian people no longer
being
allowed to donate. Maybe the two are connected, but this is all speculation.
I'm sorry to see these steps back from the more open attitude there
was a
few years back. It feels very much that we are, as a community, being
fed
canned press answers. But then, maybe there's a real need for that
and
there's a huge legal threat to making it easy to donate through bank transfer that cannot be disclosed...
Best, Lodewijk
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Kim Bruning kim@bruning.xs4all.nl
wrote:
> > To amplify: > > Paying (business) taxes in The Netherlands now pretty much requires > electronic payment to an IBAN Account; a.k.a. it is (now) the
standard,
> default, baseline way to make payments at all. > > After registering a business, the very next action is to open an
(IBAN)
> account. All extant dutch accounts that predate IBAN have been
converted
> to IBAN. All administration systems (must(!)) support IBAN. > > If you want to do business in the Netherlands, you need to support
IBAN.
> > Note that many (most?) dutch citizens do not have credit cards or
paypal
> accounts. > > Further, IBAN is standardized throughout the euro-zone. > > iDEAL is nice to have and important. IBAN is a minimal baseline > requirement. > > sincerely, > Kim > > > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 10:42:31PM +0100, Walter Vermeir wrote: >> Op 17-11-14 om 20:28 schreef Lodewijk: >> >>> you back to the credit card page) or even via regular bank
transfer
> (using >>> an IBAN) in the Netherlands. The donation page >> >> Historically the structure of bank account numbers are very
different
>> from country to country. And making transfers from one bank account
to
>> an other bank account, especially internationally, are/where
complex
and
>> expensive. >> >> There is still a lot of room of improvement but nevertheless it has >> never been so easy and cheap to do international transfers as now. >> >> The IBAN system - International Bank Account Number - is active in
a
>> fair chunk of the globe. >> >>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#Adoption
>> >> Inside the EURO-zone , 19 countries, ?? 337 million Europeans ,
people
>> can make a bank transfer to an EURO-zone IBAN bank account without >> additional expenses. >> >> Many more outside the EURO-zone can easy make international
payments
to
>> an IBAN bank account. That is not free ... but paypal is certainly
not
>> free also. The costs are just deducted from your donation. >> >> >> The WMF has always has been a huge fan of payment by credit cards. >> Understandable, the WMF is founded in the country of the Credit
card.
>> >> But that can make you blind to the fact that other people are used
to
>> total other payment systems. >> >> A couple of years ago I discovered that there where still people
using
>> cheques in France. That came as a total surprise to me. I remember
my
>> dad using cheques 30 years ago. I never came in to contact with a
cheque
>> since then. To my knowledge cheques where long gone. History.
Extinct.
>> >> But ... when you have the financial business concept of the WMF -
when
>> you need money beg for it - the donation channel should be tailer
made
>> for the specific common way of payment used by the person who is so
good
>> to be willing to make an donation. >> >> Walter >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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