Anthony writes:
What recourse does the board have against a board member that violates this agreement? Expulsion from the board?
There are other legal remedies as well, including (for example) enjoining the publication of confidential information.
Mike, I'm not talking about the confidential information provision here, I'm talking about the non-disparagement provision.
Well, since you referred to "this agreement," I understood you to be referring to the whole thing, not just to a particular clause. I hope you can see why I read it that way.
But the board doesn't need cause to remove a board member, does it?
It's not required, but it's helpful to the Board to have a shared understanding of why they might remove a Board member. Otherwise, that process might be seen as arbitrary and capricious. It's important for the Board to have a framework for judging when to take such action.
It says "criticize", but you are interpreting it as meaning "attack". These words do not mean the same thing.
I do, however, believe the locutions "personally criticize" and "personally attack" are synonymous. This does not entail that I believe "criticize" and "attack" are synonymous. (Similarly, I don't believe that "lightning" means the same thing in "lightning storm" and "lightning bug.")
True. There's clearly consideration, but I wouldn't consider it adequate, certainly not in the case of a board member who is going to be gone in a few months anyway, and therefore won't be subject to any of the protections at that time (the non-disparagement clause does not protect former trustees).
That's incorrect. The Foundation agrees to not to personally criticize a Board member "during the same time period," which is defined earlier in the provision as "during their terms on the Board and for three years thereafter." The provision defines a coterminous mutual obligation.
It's not, actually. Employees have already signed such an agreement. And I was bound to nondisparagement of the Foundation even before I signed, as a function of my legal duties.
Employees have signed the agreement, but they are not all protected by it. Protected from non-disparagement is "the Foundation or its affiliates or any of their respective directors, trustees, or senior officers". And there appears to be no protection at all for former members of these groups.
Sorry I was unclear. When I said "such an agreement," I did not mean to be understood as saying "the same agreement." Employees have signed another agreement with similar provisions, including a coterminous mutual obligation.
I think that in a properly constructed professional relationship, Danny's attacks after he resigned wouldn't have occurred, and Sue wouldn't have felt compelled to respond to them.
So it seems like you're saying it's fine to attack someone if they attack you first. Maybe that should be included in the agreement, if you feel that's the case.
You misunderstand me. Danny's attacks and Sue's response to a reporter's question about them occurred in the absence of any agreement. I think that in the absence of any agreement, nothing can be construed as being outside the agreement, since the agreement itself doesn't exist. My point was that, going forward, an agreement lays out the shared understanding of the parties, including forgoing personal attacks and obviating the need to respond to such an attack.
Obviously, of course, if one party violates an agreement of this sort, it's widely understood that the other party can defend himself or herself.
So far as I can tell, you're not attacking anyone, although you are conflating (1) ethical questions with (2) questions about Board obligations and (3) questions about employer-employee relationships. (This may help Florence, as you say you are trying to do, but I think mixing up three subject areas probably is less helpful than you imagine.)
I think that's an interesting allegation, and if you'd like to expand on it (off-list or on-list) I'll be happy to consider it. At the moment, I really don't understand what you're saying (which suggests to me that maybe you're right).
I'm sorry if I was unclear. I think the Board Statement of Obligations and Responsibilities draft is different from anything having to do with Danny because Danny was not a member of the Board. I think Danny's situation is different from that of current employees, and more recent former employees, because new hires since Danny resigned have agreed to a mutual nondisparagement document. I think the third subject area you raise -- ethics -- is an interesting one, and probably deserves discussion, but the ethics of someone who's never signed a nondisparagement agreement is a subject analytically distinct from the ethics of someone who has done so.
As to your suggested changes in wording, feel free to make those recommendations to the Board. Again, it's worth keeping in mind that the drafting of this Statement was done at Board request.
---Mike
On 18/05/2008, Mike Godwin mgodwin@wikimedia.org wrote:
Anthony writes:
What recourse does the board have against a board member that violates this agreement? Expulsion from the board?
There are other legal remedies as well, including (for example) enjoining the publication of confidential information.
Mike, I'm not talking about the confidential information provision here, I'm talking about the non-disparagement provision.
Well, since you referred to "this agreement," I understood you to be referring to the whole thing, not just to a particular clause. I hope you can see why I read it that way.
While a literal reading of his question would suggest that interpretation, the fact the this entire conversation is about the non-disparagement clause would seem to make it fairly obvious that that's what he was talking about.
It says "criticize", but you are interpreting it as meaning "attack". These words do not mean the same thing.
I do, however, believe the locutions "personally criticize" and "personally attack" are synonymous.
I don't think we're going to make any progress until we resolve this issue.
On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 12:21 PM, Mike Godwin mgodwin@wikimedia.org wrote:
Anthony writes:
It says "criticize", but you are interpreting it as meaning "attack". These words do not mean the same thing.
I do, however, believe the locutions "personally criticize" and "personally attack" are synonymous. This does not entail that I believe "criticize" and "attack" are synonymous. (Similarly, I don't believe that "lightning" means the same thing in "lightning storm" and "lightning bug.")
Well, were you and I both parties to this agreement the simple solution then would be to simply change the word "criticize" to "attack". Since neither of us are, I'll leave it at that and assume that those who are parties to the agreement will figure out what to do.
One thing you didn't answer is what does it mean to "personally criticize/attack" "the Foundation"? And why should the board members include personal attacks/criticisms of outside parties in the first place? Your other comments have clarified that the agreement of employees is separate from the agreement among board members. So why should personal attacks/criticisms of anyone but current/former board members be included in the agreement?
True. There's clearly consideration, but I wouldn't consider it adequate, certainly not in the case of a board member who is going to be gone in a few months anyway, and therefore won't be subject to any of the protections at that time (the non-disparagement clause does not protect former trustees).
That's incorrect. The Foundation agrees to not to personally criticize a Board member "during the same time period," which is defined earlier in the provision as "during their terms on the Board and for three years thereafter." The provision defines a coterminous mutual obligation.
Touche. Upon rereading this, you are indeed correct.
As to your suggested changes in wording, feel free to make those recommendations to the Board. Again, it's worth keeping in mind that the drafting of this Statement was done at Board request.
That definitely surprises me. How exactly did the Board make such a request?
As to your suggested changes in wording, feel free to make those recommendations to the Board. Again, it's worth keeping in mind that the drafting of this Statement was done at Board request.
That definitely surprises me. How exactly did the Board make such a request?
How do you mean? They probably discussed it in a board meeting and decided that one of them would go and talk to Mike (or maybe Sue, as his boss) and ask him to draw up a draft agreement. How else would it happen? Mike isn't likely to just spontaneously draw up agreements and ask the board to sign them, is he?
Thomas Dalton wrote:
As to your suggested changes in wording, feel free to make those recommendations to the Board. Again, it's worth keeping in mind that the drafting of this Statement was done at Board request.
That definitely surprises me. How exactly did the Board make such a request?
How do you mean? They probably discussed it in a board meeting and decided that one of them would go and talk to Mike (or maybe Sue, as his boss) and ask him to draw up a draft agreement. How else would it happen? Mike isn't likely to just spontaneously draw up agreements and ask the board to sign them, is he?
Since several board members expressed surprise at being initially presented with the agreement to sign, it seems that did indeed happen.
-Mark
On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 1:00 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
As to your suggested changes in wording, feel free to make those recommendations to the Board. Again, it's worth keeping in mind that the drafting of this Statement was done at Board request.
That definitely surprises me. How exactly did the Board make such a request?
How do you mean? They probably discussed it in a board meeting and decided that one of them would go and talk to Mike (or maybe Sue, as his boss) and ask him to draw up a draft agreement. How else would it happen?
Generally when a board makes a request it does so by passing a resolution. Resolutions are the means by which a board acts as a board. One problem with discussing it in a board meeting and deciding that one of them will go and talk to Mike or Sue, is that leaves a lot of room for miscommunication as to what exactly the board is requesting. This is especially true when there is disagreement among the board members as to what exactly they want, which appears to be the case in this instance.
Anthony wrote:
On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 1:00 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
As to your suggested changes in wording, feel free to make those recommendations to the Board. Again, it's worth keeping in mind that the drafting of this Statement was done at Board request.
That definitely surprises me. How exactly did the Board make such a request?
How do you mean? They probably discussed it in a board meeting and decided that one of them would go and talk to Mike (or maybe Sue, as his boss) and ask him to draw up a draft agreement. How else would it happen?
Generally when a board makes a request it does so by passing a resolution. Resolutions are the means by which a board acts as a board. One problem with discussing it in a board meeting and deciding that one of them will go and talk to Mike or Sue, is that leaves a lot of room for miscommunication as to what exactly the board is requesting. This is especially true when there is disagreement among the board members as to what exactly they want, which appears to be the case in this instance.
We were both there when the discussion was held, Anthony, so there's no broken telephone in this particular instance. I think it'd be fair to say the board is engaged in a conversation about what it wants: as I think Jimmy said upthread, Mike's document is a draft for board members to kick around.
On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 2:14 PM, Sue Gardner sgardner@wikimedia.org wrote:
Anthony wrote:
Generally when a board makes a request it does so by passing a resolution. Resolutions are the means by which a board acts as a board. One problem with discussing it in a board meeting and deciding that one of them will go and talk to Mike or Sue, is that leaves a lot of room for miscommunication as to what exactly the board is requesting. This is especially true when there is disagreement among the board members as to what exactly they want, which appears to be the case in this instance.
We were both there when the discussion was held, Anthony, so there's no broken telephone in this particular instance.
No, but there does seem to be a lack of clarity over what exactly the board, qua board, is requesting. The minutes of that meeting must be interesting. They're not public, are they?
Anthony wrote:
On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 2:14 PM, Sue Gardner sgardner@wikimedia.org wrote:
Anthony wrote:
Generally when a board makes a request it does so by passing a resolution. Resolutions are the means by which a board acts as a board. One problem with discussing it in a board meeting and deciding that one of them will go and talk to Mike or Sue, is that leaves a lot of room for miscommunication as to what exactly the board is requesting. This is especially true when there is disagreement among the board members as to what exactly they want, which appears to be the case in this instance.
We were both there when the discussion was held, Anthony, so there's no broken telephone in this particular instance.
No, but there does seem to be a lack of clarity over what exactly the board, qua board, is requesting. The minutes of that meeting must be interesting. They're not public, are they?
Hm. It's my impression that board minutes did not used to be publicly-available, but that the board has recently begun publishing them as a matter of routine. AFAIK the minutes of the April meeting aren't yet published, but I believe at some point they will be.
Domas (executive secretary) or another board member would know for sure :-)
Thomas Dalton wrote:
As to your suggested changes in wording, feel free to make those recommendations to the Board. Again, it's worth keeping in mind that the drafting of this Statement was done at Board request.
That definitely surprises me. How exactly did the Board make such a request?
How do you mean? They probably discussed it in a board meeting and decided that one of them would go and talk to Mike (or maybe Sue, as his boss) and ask him to draw up a draft agreement. How else would it happen? Mike isn't likely to just spontaneously draw up agreements and ask the board to sign them, is he?
Normal housekeeping, and yes, the document was requested by the board at its last meeting.
Over the years, there have been a number of documents (code of conduct, pledge of personal commitment, conflict of interest document) that board members have been required to agree to and/or sign. The idea here is to review everything we've got, and develop one single comprehensive document, which either subsumes, or points to, other related policies. It's intended to be the main agreement governing the relationship between a board member and the organization, and is meant to cover board member commitment, responsibilities, confidentiality, non-disparagement, attendance/participation, etc, etc. And yes, non-disparagement is new, and it's not uncontroversial. There are good reasons to include it; there are also reasonable objections.
It's normal for an organization as young as ours to regularly review and finetune its policies. And frankly, I have always felt that the value of documents like this one lies primarily in the discussion that precedes the signing, rather than in the document itself. We're an unusual organization, and for us to have a healthy conversation about what for example -in our context- constitutes confidentiality - well, that is a good and useful thing.
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