* https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Defaulting_to_gender...
Hi,
One of the unplanned outcomes from the Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, was that the various discussions over /feeling/ more welcoming in our language presumptions for non-male contributors made me think about taking some practical steps on my home project. Commons is lucky that having a standard policy language of English makes it easier to use neutral gender in policy statements. I'm taking that further by proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all. I'm hoping that the outcome will feel like a much more natural space for people like me that prefer to stay gender neutral, possibly give a slightly safer feeling to the project by the very act of making the effort, as well as avoiding an over-emphasis on binary gender when it's pretty easy to simply avoid it.
Comments are welcome on the specific proposal above, or you may have ideas for other local projects to do something similar. I'm aware that this is much more difficult to make progress on in languages such as German or Spanish that have a presumption of male/female gender within their vocabulary, so any cases of on-project initiatives in non-English would be especially interesting. Solving these challenges is an opportunity to make our projects a leader on gender neutrality, for example getting a Wikimedia based consensus to adopt terms like "Latinx".[1]
Links: 1. "Latinx" is a reaction against using gendered forms Latino and Latina, in a language that has no neutral gender. This is becoming an accepted practice in related forums and academic publications. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-people-are-using-the-term-latinx_us_...
Thanks, Fae Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT/Portal -- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Writing should, indeed, be gender-neutral when the gender is not known. But when the gender is known, it is possible in MediaWiki software to write messaging according to the indicated gender.
Note that in the English grammar it is needed relatively rarely in the first place. It is relevant for few things other than "he" and "she". Latina/Latino has a gender, but it is the exception rather than the norm. In many, many other languages, it is needed far more frequently: for "you" ("Are you sure?"), for imperative verbs ("Upload a media file"), for all past tense verbs ("Jenny thanked you for your edit"), and in other cases. MediaWiki and Facebook are the only pieces of software I know (there may be others) that support adding masculine, feminine, and unknown-gender forms. (In case you wondered, the default is "unknown".)
There are some cases when this software feature cannot be used, but very frequently it can, and should be used.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2017-04-05 13:52 GMT+03:00 Fæ faewik@gmail.com:
Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_the_Commons_namespace
Hi,
One of the unplanned outcomes from the Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, was that the various discussions over /feeling/ more welcoming in our language presumptions for non-male contributors made me think about taking some practical steps on my home project. Commons is lucky that having a standard policy language of English makes it easier to use neutral gender in policy statements. I'm taking that further by proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all. I'm hoping that the outcome will feel like a much more natural space for people like me that prefer to stay gender neutral, possibly give a slightly safer feeling to the project by the very act of making the effort, as well as avoiding an over-emphasis on binary gender when it's pretty easy to simply avoid it.
Comments are welcome on the specific proposal above, or you may have ideas for other local projects to do something similar. I'm aware that this is much more difficult to make progress on in languages such as German or Spanish that have a presumption of male/female gender within their vocabulary, so any cases of on-project initiatives in non-English would be especially interesting. Solving these challenges is an opportunity to make our projects a leader on gender neutrality, for example getting a Wikimedia based consensus to adopt terms like "Latinx".[1]
Links:
- "Latinx" is a reaction against using gendered forms Latino and
Latina, in a language that has no neutral gender. This is becoming an accepted practice in related forums and academic publications. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-people-are-using- the-term-latinx_us_57753328e4b0cc0fa136a159
Thanks, Fae Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT/Portal -- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I definitely support using gender-neutral language wherever possible, especially since I'm agender and prefer being addressed with "singular they" pronouns. I'll support your proposal on Commons.
- Pax aka Funcrunch
On 4/5/17 5:54 AM, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
Writing should, indeed, be gender-neutral when the gender is not known. But when the gender is known, it is possible in MediaWiki software to write messaging according to the indicated gender.
Note that in the English grammar it is needed relatively rarely in the first place. It is relevant for few things other than "he" and "she". Latina/Latino has a gender, but it is the exception rather than the norm. In many, many other languages, it is needed far more frequently: for "you" ("Are you sure?"), for imperative verbs ("Upload a media file"), for all past tense verbs ("Jenny thanked you for your edit"), and in other cases. MediaWiki and Facebook are the only pieces of software I know (there may be others) that support adding masculine, feminine, and unknown-gender forms. (In case you wondered, the default is "unknown".)
There are some cases when this software feature cannot be used, but very frequently it can, and should be used.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2017-04-05 13:52 GMT+03:00 Fæ faewik@gmail.com:
Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_the_Commons_namespace
Hi,
One of the unplanned outcomes from the Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, was that the various discussions over /feeling/ more welcoming in our language presumptions for non-male contributors made me think about taking some practical steps on my home project. Commons is lucky that having a standard policy language of English makes it easier to use neutral gender in policy statements. I'm taking that further by proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all. I'm hoping that the outcome will feel like a much more natural space for people like me that prefer to stay gender neutral, possibly give a slightly safer feeling to the project by the very act of making the effort, as well as avoiding an over-emphasis on binary gender when it's pretty easy to simply avoid it.
Comments are welcome on the specific proposal above, or you may have ideas for other local projects to do something similar. I'm aware that this is much more difficult to make progress on in languages such as German or Spanish that have a presumption of male/female gender within their vocabulary, so any cases of on-project initiatives in non-English would be especially interesting. Solving these challenges is an opportunity to make our projects a leader on gender neutrality, for example getting a Wikimedia based consensus to adopt terms like "Latinx".[1]
Links:
- "Latinx" is a reaction against using gendered forms Latino and
Latina, in a language that has no neutral gender. This is becoming an accepted practice in related forums and academic publications. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-people-are-using- the-term-latinx_us_57753328e4b0cc0fa136a159
Thanks, Fae Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT/Portal -- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
On 05/04/17 11:52, Fæ wrote:
Should have been common practice years ago.
IMHO,
El Gordo
Hi Fae,
On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 12:52 PM, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_the_Commons_namespace
- "Latinx" is a reaction against using gendered forms Latino and
Latina, in a language that has no neutral gender. This is becoming an accepted practice in related forums and academic publications. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-people-are-using- the-term-latinx_us_57753328e4b0cc0fa136a159
I don't know how familiar you are with language politics, but you're 100% factually incorrect here when saying that Spanish has no gender neutral. It does have gender neutral, and I can have full conversations about my spouse in Spanish without giving away the gender of the spouse. Your comment appears to be based on a lack of understanding of how gender works in Spanish, and it is not helpful as a result as comments like this suppress the voices of linguistic minorities and already marginalized groups.
Beyond that, how people gender neutral certain gendered words in Spanish can be very culture specific. The link to the Huffington Post is clearly an American Spanish perspective, and there is a huge debate in various Spanish language communities about US Spanish. It is not a standard form of Spanish, and there are discussions about if American Spanish will become its own linguistically distinct language in the next decade or so, as a sort of English/Spanish combination. Trying to impose American Spanish on other Spanish speakers would be grossly offensive given these linguistic issues. I don't think you'd appreciate Jamaican English being imposed on you, and your handling of gendered language issues in English. I also don't think you'd appreciate having Germans with little to no grasp of English trying to impose on you standards of use of English. I'd suggest reading some of the materials published by LGBT organizations in Spanish speaking countries. http://www.felgtb.org/rs/1232/d112d6ad-54ec-438b-9358-4483f9e98868/05d/fd/1/... is one of them. http://www.uab.cat/Document/964/953/Guia_uso_no_sexista_lenguaje2,0.pdf is a guide by a university in Barcelona in how to use gender neutral language in Spain.
Rather than have a group of non-Spanish speaking men with little knowledge of the Spanish language and less knowledge of the cultural issues facing the LGBT community in the countries where Spanish is the dominant language try to justify their interference into linguistic debates for which they are ill equipped to participate and where they are not the discriminated against group (because my understanding is that and most of the other men involved in this discussion are CIS gendered men), why don't you reach out to WikiMujeres? This is a Wikimedia user group of Spanish speaking women found at http://wikimujeres.wiki/ . This group actively discusses these issues in Spanish and on Wikimedia projects. They have good working relationships with chapters and can push towards more inclusive Spanish language usage on Wikimedia Commons much more effectively than you can given their contacts and fluency in the language.
I am on their mailing list. If you're actually invested in this issue, beyond linking to an linguistically dubious article that doesn't reflect the broader picture of Spanish and making factually incorrect statements, I'd be happy to reach out to the women I know in WikiMujeres to see what opportunities there are for Wikimedia LGBT to work with WikiMujeres to address this issue. WikiMujeres also has regular edit-a-thons on Mondays in Madrid when MediaLab Prado is open. If you're keen to take this further, I can see about getting you (or any other member of this group) an invitation to one of these sessions to discuss this issue and how to resolve it. (I know they were present in Berlin. Did you have a chance to speak with them?)
And as WorldPride is taking place in Madrid this year, doing Spanish language activities here with the local Spanish groups might be something seriously worth considering to take advantage.
Sincerely, Laura Hale
Hi Laura,
Thanks for the correction and the information. As you spotted I am clueless in other languages, I just happened to pick up the Huffington article but I did not think about perspectives such as the potential for bias to American Spanish; it seems obvious now you have pointed it out. Consider the example dropped. :-)
100% agree that the discussion and choices of how to handle gender neutral guidelines in different languages is for /those language communities/, with all of their lovely variety and complexity, not the English speaking/writing community on our projects applying a solution by majority blunt force.
In the example of Commons, the project is multilingual, however our policy pages have an agreed default of being written and maintained in English, with versions in other languages based upon that English baseline. The proposal I put forward on the Commons Village pump recognizes this critical limitation, and I wrote a clarification in the discussion there:
"The question of non-English translation is a separate issue. I did have some discussions with German and Spanish speakers over the weekend about precisely the issue of handling gendered languages and their default bias to male forms. These questions are for those language communities to reach a consensus on and is a technical translation and cultural issue. This proposal is focused on our default policy language of English, I recognize that moving to a more gender neutral form for other languages is much harder, but that is not a reason for our community to avoid showing leadership within our Wikimedia projects, and we should forge ahead where it is possible and reasonable to do so. I'd even say this is worth a little 'discomfort' in order to adopt modern best practices and take positive steps to feel more welcoming for women, trans and genderqueer future contributors."
By the way, if the Commons proposal succeeds, which appears likely, it would be great if specific community discussions about how, or whether, it can be implemented in various language versions. It should not be turned into a big deal, as the number of policy or help pages affected is small and the changes will be modest. However I don't know the best way of going about this, and I hope that those with a passion for having sensible discussions about gender neutral prose in their favorite languages will take a lead. It's a knotty complex area, but I'm hoping we can foster a pattern respectful discussions so everyone feels their voice is heard and they are welcome to participate, especially those with a trans or genderqueer experience for whom this may feel like a highly personal discussion.
Thanks, Fae
On 6 April 2017 at 08:59, Laura Hale laura@fanhistory.com wrote:
Hi Fae,
On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 12:52 PM, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_the_Commons_namespace
- "Latinx" is a reaction against using gendered forms Latino and
Latina, in a language that has no neutral gender. This is becoming an accepted practice in related forums and academic publications. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-people-are-using- the-term-latinx_us_57753328e4b0cc0fa136a159
I don't know how familiar you are with language politics, but you're 100% factually incorrect here when saying that Spanish has no gender neutral. It does have gender neutral, and I can have full conversations about my spouse in Spanish without giving away the gender of the spouse. Your comment appears to be based on a lack of understanding of how gender works in Spanish, and it is not helpful as a result as comments like this suppress the voices of linguistic minorities and already marginalized groups.
Beyond that, how people gender neutral certain gendered words in Spanish can be very culture specific. The link to the Huffington Post is clearly an American Spanish perspective, and there is a huge debate in various Spanish language communities about US Spanish. It is not a standard form of Spanish, and there are discussions about if American Spanish will become its own linguistically distinct language in the next decade or so, as a sort of English/Spanish combination. Trying to impose American Spanish on other Spanish speakers would be grossly offensive given these linguistic issues. I don't think you'd appreciate Jamaican English being imposed on you, and your handling of gendered language issues in English. I also don't think you'd appreciate having Germans with little to no grasp of English trying to impose on you standards of use of English. I'd suggest reading some of the materials published by LGBT organizations in Spanish speaking countries. http://www.felgtb.org/rs/1232/d112d6ad-54ec-438b-9358-4483f9e98868/05d/fd/1/... is one of them. http://www.uab.cat/Document/964/953/Guia_uso_no_sexista_lenguaje2,0.pdf is a guide by a university in Barcelona in how to use gender neutral language in Spain.
Rather than have a group of non-Spanish speaking men with little knowledge of the Spanish language and less knowledge of the cultural issues facing the LGBT community in the countries where Spanish is the dominant language try to justify their interference into linguistic debates for which they are ill equipped to participate and where they are not the discriminated against group (because my understanding is that and most of the other men involved in this discussion are CIS gendered men), why don't you reach out to WikiMujeres? This is a Wikimedia user group of Spanish speaking women found at http://wikimujeres.wiki/ . This group actively discusses these issues in Spanish and on Wikimedia projects. They have good working relationships with chapters and can push towards more inclusive Spanish language usage on Wikimedia Commons much more effectively than you can given their contacts and fluency in the language.
I am on their mailing list. If you're actually invested in this issue, beyond linking to an linguistically dubious article that doesn't reflect the broader picture of Spanish and making factually incorrect statements, I'd be happy to reach out to the women I know in WikiMujeres to see what opportunities there are for Wikimedia LGBT to work with WikiMujeres to address this issue. WikiMujeres also has regular edit-a-thons on Mondays in Madrid when MediaLab Prado is open. If you're keen to take this further, I can see about getting you (or any other member of this group) an invitation to one of these sessions to discuss this issue and how to resolve it. (I know they were present in Berlin. Did you have a chance to speak with them?)
And as WorldPride is taking place in Madrid this year, doing Spanish language activities here with the local Spanish groups might be something seriously worth considering to take advantage.
Sincerely, Laura Hale -- twitter: purplepopple
Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
I'm taking that further by proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely confuses me or at best. The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ which roughly looks like:
A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.
With the proposal to instead:
A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
Why isn't "picture" plural as well? If using masculine as a neutral pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one can instead write:
A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages. For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine). What some are advocating is using:
Un/une photographe
If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for 'administrateur':
Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages most probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for journalists writing in English.[1]
Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions. However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and I'm hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for our fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors. :-)
Links 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
Thanks Fae Wikimedia LGBT+
On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso hashar+wmf@free.fr wrote:
Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
I'm taking that further by proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely confuses me or at best. The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ which roughly looks like:
A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.
With the proposal to instead:
A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
Why isn't "picture" plural as well? If using masculine as a neutral pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one can instead write:
A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages. For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine). What some are advocating is using:
Un/une photographe
If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for 'administrateur':
Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages most probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
-- Antoine "hashar" Musso
A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for participation to the month of Francophonie.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Centralnotice-templat...
The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral terminology.
"les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral "les Wikimédiens".
That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the term by "nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender neutral specific language accross the francophones projects. Alternatives (such as the "we") are possible but not always.
Florence
Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :
Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for journalists writing in English.[1]
Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions. However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and I'm hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for our fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors. :-)
Links
Thanks Fae Wikimedia LGBT+
On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso hashar+wmf@free.fr wrote:
Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
I'm taking that further by proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely confuses me or at best. The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ which roughly looks like:
A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.
With the proposal to instead:
A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
Why isn't "picture" plural as well? If using masculine as a neutral pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one can instead write:
A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages. For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine). What some are advocating is using:
Un/une photographe
If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for 'administrateur':
Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages most probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
-- Antoine "hashar" Musso
Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]
"* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"
It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise, and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting, keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can, even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!
The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]
P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening for yahoo addresses to this list.
Links 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Defaulting_to_gender... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
Thanks, Fae
On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for participation to the month of Francophonie.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Centralnotice-templat...
The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral terminology.
"les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral "les Wikimédiens".
That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the term by "nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender neutral specific language accross the francophones projects. Alternatives (such as the "we") are possible but not always.
Florence
Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :
Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for journalists writing in English.[1]
Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions. However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and I'm hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for our fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors. :-)
Links
Thanks Fae Wikimedia LGBT+
On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso hashar+wmf@free.fr wrote:
Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
I'm taking that further by proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely confuses me or at best. The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ which roughly looks like:
A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.
With the proposal to instead:
A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
Why isn't "picture" plural as well? If using masculine as a neutral pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one can instead write:
A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages. For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine). What some are advocating is using:
Un/une photographe
If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for 'administrateur':
Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages most probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
-- Antoine "hashar" Musso
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I beg to differ with Anders final comment;
And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream (if it ever will be)
I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use of neutral language that encompasses all equally because neutrality is one of the key pillars of the community. We can and must do better to ensure that everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis.
If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an individual then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which can best express our neutral position
On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]
"* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"
It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise, and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting, keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can, even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!
The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]
P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening for yahoo addresses to this list.
Links
Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
Thanks, Fae
On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for participation to the month of Francophonie.
Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259
The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral terminology.
"les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral
"les
Wikimédiens".
That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the
term by
"nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender neutral specific language accross the francophones projects. Alternatives (such as the "we") are possible but not always.
Florence
Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :
Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for journalists writing in English.[1]
Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions. However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and I'm hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for our fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors. :-)
Links
Thanks Fae Wikimedia LGBT+
On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso hashar+wmf@free.fr wrote:
Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
I'm taking that further by proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely confuses me or at best. The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ which roughly looks like:
A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.
With the proposal to instead:
A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
Why isn't "picture" plural as well? If using masculine as a neutral pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one can instead write:
A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages. For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine). What some are advocating is using:
Un/une photographe
If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for 'administrateur':
Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages most probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
-- Antoine "hashar" Musso
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/ project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the discussions and vote!
* https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_neutral_language *
The proposal was an unplanned outcome from the WM-LGBT+ user group taking part in this year's Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, part of all the creative discussions that go on when so many international Wikimedians get together.
If you missed it, the English Wikipedia has an ongoing 'lively' Request for Comment for its own Gender-neutral policy for policies, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
Thanks Fae Wikmedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+ https://telegram.me/wmlgbt
On 8 April 2017 at 14:04, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
I beg to differ with Anders final comment;
And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream (if it ever will be)
I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use of neutral language that encompasses all equally because neutrality is one of the key pillars of the community. We can and must do better to ensure that everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis.
If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an individual then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which can best express our neutral position
On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]
"* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"
It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise, and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting, keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can, even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!
The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]
P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening for yahoo addresses to this list.
Links
Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
Thanks, Fae
On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for participation to the month of Francophonie.
Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259
The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral terminology.
"les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral
"les
Wikimédiens".
That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the
term by
"nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender neutral specific language accross the francophones projects. Alternatives (such as the "we") are possible but not always.
Florence
Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :
Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for journalists writing in English.[1]
Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions. However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and I'm hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for our fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors. :-)
Links
Thanks Fae Wikimedia LGBT+
On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso hashar+wmf@free.fr wrote:
Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
I'm taking that further by proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely confuses me or at best. The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ which roughly looks like:
A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.
With the proposal to instead:
A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
Why isn't "picture" plural as well? If using masculine as a neutral pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one can instead write:
A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages. For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine). What some are advocating is using:
Un/une photographe
If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for 'administrateur':
Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages most probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
-- Antoine "hashar" Musso
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- GN. President Wikimedia Australia WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
Excellent to see. Thanks Fae and agree this is an important initiative.
James
On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:13 AM, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/ project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the discussions and vote!
neutral_language *
The proposal was an unplanned outcome from the WM-LGBT+ user group taking part in this year's Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, part of all the creative discussions that go on when so many international Wikimedians get together.
If you missed it, the English Wikipedia has an ongoing 'lively' Request for Comment for its own Gender-neutral policy for policies, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
Thanks Fae Wikmedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+ https://telegram.me/wmlgbt
On 8 April 2017 at 14:04, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
I beg to differ with Anders final comment;
And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream
(if
it ever will be)
I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use
of
neutral language that encompasses all equally because neutrality is one
of
the key pillars of the community. We can and must do better to ensure
that
everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis.
If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an individual then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which can best express our neutral position
On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]
"* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"
It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise, and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting, keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can, even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!
The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]
P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening for yahoo addresses to this list.
Links
Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
Thanks, Fae
On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for participation to the month of Francophonie.
Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259
The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral terminology.
"les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral
"les
Wikimédiens".
That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the
term by
"nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender neutral specific language accross the francophones projects.
Alternatives
(such as the "we") are possible but not always.
Florence
Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :
Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for journalists writing in English.[1]
Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions. However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and
I'm
hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for
our
fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors.
:-)
Links
Thanks Fae Wikimedia LGBT+
On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso hashar+wmf@free.fr wrote:
Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit : > > I'm taking that further by > proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies
and
> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or > she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely confuses me or at best. The example takes a sentence from
Commons:FAQ
which roughly looks like:
A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is
used.
With the proposal to instead:
A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
Why isn't "picture" plural as well? If using masculine as a neutral pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one
can
instead write:
A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other
languages.
For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine). What some are advocating is using:
Un/une photographe
If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for 'administrateur':
Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages
most
probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
-- Antoine "hashar" Musso
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- GN. President Wikimedia Australia WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Mmmm, the Hebrew Wikipedia has been gender-neutral for at least eight years :)
So Commons is not exactly the first project to do this.
בתאריך 12 באפר׳ 2017 10:14 AM, "Fæ" faewik@gmail.com כתב:
I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/ project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the discussions and vote!
* https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_neutral_language *
The proposal was an unplanned outcome from the WM-LGBT+ user group taking part in this year's Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, part of all the creative discussions that go on when so many international Wikimedians get together.
If you missed it, the English Wikipedia has an ongoing 'lively' Request for Comment for its own Gender-neutral policy for policies, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
Thanks Fae Wikmedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+ https://telegram.me/wmlgbt
On 8 April 2017 at 14:04, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
I beg to differ with Anders final comment;
And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream
(if
it ever will be)
I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use of neutral language that encompasses all equally because neutrality is one of the key pillars of the community. We can and must do better to ensure
that
everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis.
If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an individual then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which can best express our neutral position
On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]
"* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"
It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise, and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting, keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can, even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!
The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]
P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening for yahoo addresses to this list.
Links
Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
Thanks, Fae
On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for participation to the month of Francophonie.
Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259
The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral terminology.
"les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral
"les
Wikimédiens".
That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the
term by
"nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender neutral specific language accross the francophones projects.
Alternatives
(such as the "we") are possible but not always.
Florence
Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :
Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for journalists writing in English.[1]
Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions. However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and I'm hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for our fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors. :-)
Links
Thanks Fae Wikimedia LGBT+
On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso hashar+wmf@free.fr wrote:
Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
I'm taking that further by proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely confuses me or at best. The example takes a sentence from
Commons:FAQ
which roughly looks like:
A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is
used.
With the proposal to instead:
A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
Why isn't "picture" plural as well? If using masculine as a neutral pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one
can
instead write:
A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages. For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine). What some are advocating is using:
Un/une photographe
If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for 'administrateur':
Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages
most
probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
-- Antoine "hashar" Musso
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- GN. President Wikimedia Australia WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
_______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
The Odia-language itself is gender neutral though we have some gender-specific pronouns. So we never worried about these issues. :)
Subhashish
On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:29 AM, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
Mmmm, the Hebrew Wikipedia has been gender-neutral for at least eight years :)
So Commons is not exactly the first project to do this.
בתאריך 12 באפר׳ 2017 10:14 AM, "Fæ" faewik@gmail.com כתב:
I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/ project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the discussions and vote!
neutral_language
The proposal was an unplanned outcome from the WM-LGBT+ user group taking part in this year's Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, part of all the creative discussions that go on when so many international Wikimedians get together.
If you missed it, the English Wikipedia has an ongoing 'lively' Request for Comment for its own Gender-neutral policy for policies, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
Thanks Fae Wikmedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+ https://telegram.me/wmlgbt
On 8 April 2017 at 14:04, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
I beg to differ with Anders final comment;
And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream
(if
it ever will be)
I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use
of
neutral language that encompasses all equally because neutrality is one
of
the key pillars of the community. We can and must do better to ensure
that
everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis.
If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an individual then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which can best express our neutral position
On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]
"* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"
It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise, and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting, keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can, even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!
The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]
P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening for yahoo addresses to this list.
Links
Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
Thanks, Fae
On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for participation to the month of Francophonie.
Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259
The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral terminology.
"les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral
"les
Wikimédiens".
That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the
term by
"nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender neutral specific language accross the francophones projects.
Alternatives
(such as the "we") are possible but not always.
Florence
Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :
Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for journalists writing in English.[1]
Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions. However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and
I'm
hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for
our
fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors.
:-)
Links
Thanks Fae Wikimedia LGBT+
On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso hashar+wmf@free.fr wrote:
Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit : > > I'm taking that further by > proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies
and
> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or > she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely confuses me or at best. The example takes a sentence from
Commons:FAQ
which roughly looks like:
A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is
used.
With the proposal to instead:
A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
Why isn't "picture" plural as well? If using masculine as a neutral pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one
can
instead write:
A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other
languages.
For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine). What some are advocating is using:
Un/une photographe
If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for 'administrateur':
Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages
most
probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
-- Antoine "hashar" Musso
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- GN. President Wikimedia Australia WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hi Florence Just a small remark : actually the message that was used in the end on the site notice is gender neutral, and was acceptable for all. There is sometimes a way out of the binary gendering in French, « nous" for example has no attributed gender. Using wikimedien·ne·s does not include people who do not want to be affiliated to any gender at all (we say a-genre in French, but I dont know the word in english). I take an example: instead of saying « lecteurs et lectrices », one can say « le lectorat » and nobody would even notice (even the persons opposed to the feminization of titles). Now here there was a big debate on Theresa May’s https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresa_May page, and in the end one can read now « première ministre » which is probably one of the first time the community voted in this direction (with lots and lots go heated debates). The French community is not as irrational about neutral gender as it used to be, that’s for sure. So I would not be as pessimist as you are actually, the French community is not used to using gender neutral language but there are examples of it. See for example there for the next Wikiconvention https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConvention_francophone/2017/frwhere the term « participant·e·s » shows up in the first page… Kind regards, Nattes à chat
Le 7 avr. 2017 à 21:58, Florence Devouard anthere9@yahoo.com a écrit :
A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for participation to the month of Francophonie.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Centralnotice-templat...
The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral terminology.
"les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral "les Wikimédiens".
That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the term by "nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender neutral specific language accross the francophones projects. Alternatives (such as the "we") are possible but not always.
Florence
Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :
Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for journalists writing in English.[1]
Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions. However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and I'm hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for our fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors. :-)
Links
Thanks Fae Wikimedia LGBT+
On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso hashar+wmf@free.fr wrote:
Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
I'm taking that further by proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely confuses me or at best. The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ which roughly looks like:
A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.
With the proposal to instead:
A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
Why isn't "picture" plural as well? If using masculine as a neutral pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one can instead write:
A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages. For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine). What some are advocating is using:
Un/une photographe
If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for 'administrateur':
Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages most probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
-- Antoine "hashar" Musso
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hoi, As a non native English speaker, I positively hate this. When you want to say that a picture of a photographer whatever, you do not have to say "his or her", it suffices to say "when a picture of a photographer is to be used, prior permission has to be asked" or whatever.
Yes, it may please you but this practise is not taught in schools and given the size of the non-native community ... don't do this Thanks, GerardM
On 6 April 2017 at 13:30, Antoine Musso hashar+wmf@free.fr wrote:
Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
I'm taking that further by proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely confuses me or at best. The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ which roughly looks like:
A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.
With the proposal to instead:
A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
Why isn't "picture" plural as well? If using masculine as a neutral pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one can instead write:
A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages. For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine). What some are advocating is using:
Un/une photographe
If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for 'administrateur':
Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages most probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
-- Antoine "hashar" Musso
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I kinda second this, as a non native speaker the singular they sounds awkward/confusing/wrong/whatever. Maybe something like "the person's" (I hope everyone would self-recognize in this), "one's own", no adjective at all. It's a bit hard for me to understand that some person does not self recognize in either "he" or "she", but in the end it's always good to learn something new, and if something can be done to make everyone feel welcome, let's try it. By the way, I guess a few centuries ago the "singular you" would have sounded strange as well...
Marco
On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, As a non native English speaker, I positively hate this. When you want to say that a picture of a photographer whatever, you do not have to say "his or her", it suffices to say "when a picture of a photographer is to be used, prior permission has to be asked" or whatever.
Yes, it may please you but this practise is not taught in schools and given the size of the non-native community ... don't do this Thanks, GerardM
I support rewriting sentences rather than using "singular they" if it's straightforward enough to do so, as in Gerard's example. But yes, there are people, including myself, who are neither men nor women, and using gendered language like "he or she" leaves us out.
And yes, in English "you" is used to address both an individual and a group, though in the latter case often a clarification such as "you all" is added. We no longer use "thee" and "thou", so language usage does adapt.
- Pax aka Funcrunch
On 4/6/17 9:51 AM, Marco Chiesa wrote:
I kinda second this, as a non native speaker the singular they sounds awkward/confusing/wrong/whatever. Maybe something like "the person's" (I hope everyone would self-recognize in this), "one's own", no adjective at all. It's a bit hard for me to understand that some person does not self recognize in either "he" or "she", but in the end it's always good to learn something new, and if something can be done to make everyone feel welcome, let's try it. By the way, I guess a few centuries ago the "singular you" would have sounded strange as well...
Marco
On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, As a non native English speaker, I positively hate this. When you want to say that a picture of a photographer whatever, you do not have to say "his or her", it suffices to say "when a picture of a photographer is to be used, prior permission has to be asked" or whatever.
Yes, it may please you but this practise is not taught in schools and given the size of the non-native community ... don't do this Thanks, GerardM
Instead of: * A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used. How about: * The artist must be given attribution when an image is reused.
Cheers! Wayne Calhoon (AKA Checkingfax)
One can use "one" or "one's" to substitute in many places for 3rd person singular pronouns. Not everywhere, but it is in keeping with English grammar.
Peaceray
On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:35 AM, J. j.blackmale@gmail.com wrote:
Instead of:
- A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
How about:
- The artist must be given attribution when an image is reused.
Cheers! Wayne Calhoon (AKA Checkingfax)
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
There are a lot of languages where there are no neutral gender, or where there are a single male gender, or it can even be that the only neutral gender is used for things and animals.
In German there is an expectation of gender-correct form. In Norwegian there is an expectation of a neutral form. In Danish there is only masculine forms.
Sorry but this idea is not generally usable.
On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:37 PM, Raymond Leonard < raymond.f.leonard.jr@gmail.com> wrote:
One can use "one" or "one's" to substitute in many places for 3rd person singular pronouns. Not everywhere, but it is in keeping with English grammar.
Peaceray
On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:35 AM, J. j.blackmale@gmail.com wrote:
Instead of:
- A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
How about:
- The artist must be given attribution when an image is reused.
Cheers! Wayne Calhoon (AKA Checkingfax)
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Sorry to people from Bergen, girls from Bergen is masculine - "jenten". I wonder if we can blame that on the Germans, "mädchen" is neutrum, perhaps they messed up the local language during the Hansa-period.
On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:49 PM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
There are a lot of languages where there are no neutral gender, or where there are a single male gender, or it can even be that the only neutral gender is used for things and animals.
In German there is an expectation of gender-correct form. In Norwegian there is an expectation of a neutral form. In Danish there is only masculine forms.
Sorry but this idea is not generally usable.
On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:37 PM, Raymond Leonard < raymond.f.leonard.jr@gmail.com> wrote:
One can use "one" or "one's" to substitute in many places for 3rd person singular pronouns. Not everywhere, but it is in keeping with English grammar.
Peaceray
On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:35 AM, J. j.blackmale@gmail.com wrote:
Instead of:
- A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
How about:
- The artist must be given attribution when an image is reused.
Cheers! Wayne Calhoon (AKA Checkingfax)
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Thanks for raising the different language problems. I'm aware of it, though I only edit in English.
Last weekend I was much enlightened by sitting down with a German trans contributor, who was showing me the system language problems on the German Wikipedia, and together we started having fun comparing trans related policies and trans related article numbers. I was amazed at the difference. No, that's not enough, I was really shocked that the second largest Wikipedia that I deeply respect, is a community that apparently has little appetite or any active discussion on these LGBT+ issues. In comparison the English Wikipedia feels like a vibrant and creative garden of Eden to me as an LGBT+ contributor.
By forging ahead, at least on Wikimedia Commons[1] and attempting the same on the English Wikipedia[2], we hope to set a healthy example for what is possible, and lay down the challenge to other projects to be truly welcoming and feel encouraging for trans and genderqueer readers and editors, rather than just saying that we are.
Language may be very limiting, sure, let's accept that fact of life. It's both interesting and difficult. But it's not unimaginable that our Wikimedia movement could end up adopting leading edge new non-gendered terms in multiple languages for simple words like "user" and "administrator" that currently are unnecessarily gendered. We could even show willing by taking baby steps like just empowering our users to set their own preferred pronoun style, like Ve or Mx, which is entirely possible right now, today, in the MediaWiki software. Ignoring these options, or even joking about them, is to pretend that genderqueer people don't exist.
Yes, please flag up the issues, let's discuss the challenges. No, I simply do not accept that by we are asking for the impossible on any of our projects, I never shall accept it.
Links: 1. Wikimedia Commons, new draft policy created today, because of these discussions: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_neutral_language 2. Drafting a new English Wikipedia RFC, because of these discussions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_LGBT_studies#Resear...
Thanks, Fae
On 6 April 2017 at 21:49, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
There are a lot of languages where there are no neutral gender, or where there are a single male gender, or it can even be that the only neutral gender is used for things and animals.
In German there is an expectation of gender-correct form. In Norwegian there is an expectation of a neutral form. In Danish there is only masculine forms.
Sorry but this idea is not generally usable.
On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:37 PM, Raymond Leonard < raymond.f.leonard.jr@gmail.com> wrote:
One can use "one" or "one's" to substitute in many places for 3rd person singular pronouns. Not everywhere, but it is in keeping with English grammar.
Peaceray
On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:35 AM, J. j.blackmale@gmail.com wrote:
Instead of:
- A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
How about:
- The artist must be given attribution when an image is reused.
Cheers! Wayne Calhoon (AKA Checkingfax)
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Thanks, Fae, for opening this thread - and thank you everyone for responding so eloquently and knowledgeably. This was a topic where I knew I didn't have sufficient knowledge to comment, and I have learned a lot from this discussion. It's a solid example of the best traits of the Wikimedia family - proposal for a new idea, well-informed discussion, good faith assumed on everyone's part.
Risker/Anne
I believe the best way to describe people is as accurately, and neutral as possible, following the grammatical and cultural rules within the community, and especially to address them as they chose themselves. Note that we use grammatical gender, we do not address people with sexual gender.
On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 12:47 AM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks, Fae, for opening this thread - and thank you everyone for responding so eloquently and knowledgeably. This was a topic where I knew I didn't have sufficient knowledge to comment, and I have learned a lot from this discussion. It's a solid example of the best traits of the Wikimedia family - proposal for a new idea, well-informed discussion, good faith assumed on everyone's part.
Risker/Anne _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hoi, I quote: " I simply do not accept that by we are asking for the impossible on any of our projects, I never shall accept it." That is indeed your prerogative. The problem is that with such a point of view, there is not much of a discussion possible. If you want to be single issue Fae, then fine but it translates in how people perceive you including your other points of view. That is not something that would make me happy and I know it is not how you achieve things. Thanks, GerardM
On 7 April 2017 at 00:24, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for raising the different language problems. I'm aware of it, though I only edit in English.
Last weekend I was much enlightened by sitting down with a German trans contributor, who was showing me the system language problems on the German Wikipedia, and together we started having fun comparing trans related policies and trans related article numbers. I was amazed at the difference. No, that's not enough, I was really shocked that the second largest Wikipedia that I deeply respect, is a community that apparently has little appetite or any active discussion on these LGBT+ issues. In comparison the English Wikipedia feels like a vibrant and creative garden of Eden to me as an LGBT+ contributor.
By forging ahead, at least on Wikimedia Commons[1] and attempting the same on the English Wikipedia[2], we hope to set a healthy example for what is possible, and lay down the challenge to other projects to be truly welcoming and feel encouraging for trans and genderqueer readers and editors, rather than just saying that we are.
Language may be very limiting, sure, let's accept that fact of life. It's both interesting and difficult. But it's not unimaginable that our Wikimedia movement could end up adopting leading edge new non-gendered terms in multiple languages for simple words like "user" and "administrator" that currently are unnecessarily gendered. We could even show willing by taking baby steps like just empowering our users to set their own preferred pronoun style, like Ve or Mx, which is entirely possible right now, today, in the MediaWiki software. Ignoring these options, or even joking about them, is to pretend that genderqueer people don't exist.
Yes, please flag up the issues, let's discuss the challenges. No, I simply do not accept that by we are asking for the impossible on any of our projects, I never shall accept it.
Links:
- Wikimedia Commons, new draft policy created today, because of these
discussions: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_ neutral_language 2. Drafting a new English Wikipedia RFC, because of these discussions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_ LGBT_studies#Research_for_proposing_a_gender_neutral_ principle_for_Wikipedia_policies_and_guidelines
Thanks, Fae
On 6 April 2017 at 21:49, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
There are a lot of languages where there are no neutral gender, or where there are a single male gender, or it can even be that the only neutral gender is used for things and animals.
In German there is an expectation of gender-correct form. In Norwegian there is an expectation of a neutral form. In Danish there is only masculine forms.
Sorry but this idea is not generally usable.
On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:37 PM, Raymond Leonard < raymond.f.leonard.jr@gmail.com> wrote:
One can use "one" or "one's" to substitute in many places for 3rd person singular pronouns. Not everywhere, but it is in keeping with English grammar.
Peaceray
On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:35 AM, J. j.blackmale@gmail.com wrote:
Instead of:
- A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
How about:
- The artist must be given attribution when an image is reused.
Cheers! Wayne Calhoon (AKA Checkingfax)
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
This basic issue has for many years been a "hot" issue in Sweden.
And the use of the words "han" (he/his) and "hon" (she/her) has become a minefield. And to use "him and her" to mean all type of persons is just not acceptable (what about all who want to use other attributes to define themselves).
And a new word has been created "hen", meant to be a more neutral word. But then this word has become very controversial as it is seen as a leftist/feminist thing by conservative/populists
So when it comes to how we use them in documents related to WIkipedia, is to not use any of them. It is a little bit more complicated but it is quite possible. "The person who takes a photo should" etc
And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream (if it ever will be)
Anders
Den 2017-04-07 kl. 00:24, skrev Fæ:
Thanks for raising the different language problems. I'm aware of it, though I only edit in English.
Last weekend I was much enlightened by sitting down with a German trans contributor, who was showing me the system language problems on the German Wikipedia, and together we started having fun comparing trans related policies and trans related article numbers. I was amazed at the difference. No, that's not enough, I was really shocked that the second largest Wikipedia that I deeply respect, is a community that apparently has little appetite or any active discussion on these LGBT+ issues. In comparison the English Wikipedia feels like a vibrant and creative garden of Eden to me as an LGBT+ contributor.
By forging ahead, at least on Wikimedia Commons[1] and attempting the same on the English Wikipedia[2], we hope to set a healthy example for what is possible, and lay down the challenge to other projects to be truly welcoming and feel encouraging for trans and genderqueer readers and editors, rather than just saying that we are.
Language may be very limiting, sure, let's accept that fact of life. It's both interesting and difficult. But it's not unimaginable that our Wikimedia movement could end up adopting leading edge new non-gendered terms in multiple languages for simple words like "user" and "administrator" that currently are unnecessarily gendered. We could even show willing by taking baby steps like just empowering our users to set their own preferred pronoun style, like Ve or Mx, which is entirely possible right now, today, in the MediaWiki software. Ignoring these options, or even joking about them, is to pretend that genderqueer people don't exist.
Yes, please flag up the issues, let's discuss the challenges. No, I simply do not accept that by we are asking for the impossible on any of our projects, I never shall accept it.
Links:
- Wikimedia Commons, new draft policy created today, because of these
discussions: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_neutral_language 2. Drafting a new English Wikipedia RFC, because of these discussions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_LGBT_studies#Resear...
Thanks, Fae
On 6 April 2017 at 21:49, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
There are a lot of languages where there are no neutral gender, or where there are a single male gender, or it can even be that the only neutral gender is used for things and animals.
In German there is an expectation of gender-correct form. In Norwegian there is an expectation of a neutral form. In Danish there is only masculine forms.
Sorry but this idea is not generally usable.
On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:37 PM, Raymond Leonard < raymond.f.leonard.jr@gmail.com> wrote:
One can use "one" or "one's" to substitute in many places for 3rd person singular pronouns. Not everywhere, but it is in keeping with English grammar.
Peaceray
On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:35 AM, J. j.blackmale@gmail.com wrote:
Instead of:
- A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
How about:
- The artist must be given attribution when an image is reused.
Cheers! Wayne Calhoon (AKA Checkingfax)
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
On 7 April 2017 at 06:39, Anders Wennersten mail@anderswennersten.se wrote: ...
So when it comes to how we use them in documents related to WIkipedia, is to not use any of them. It is a little bit more complicated but it is quite possible. "The person who takes a photo should" etc
And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream (if it ever will be)
Anders
Thanks for the 'hen' example. The new policy on Wikimedia Commons[1] for gender neutral language has precisely the Swedish Wikipedia working solution as the best solution, i.e. to avoid unnecessary gendered pronouns where /reasonable/. For policies in English at least, that actually turns out to be almost all the time.
It sounds like capturing what you currently do, can easily become your local gender neutral policy. It may not be perfect, but it would be a focus for discussion and by having these visible steps to attempt to address the issue, those most affected will feel acknowledged rather than dismissed.
Many of us have been contributing to the Wikimedia Foundation's strategy consultation, thinking of what our projects might become in 15 years. When you look that far ahead, it seems possible to plan for these changes happening, including seeing a few "leftist/feminist" possibilities like the Swedish 'hen' becoming mainstream.
When I was a teenager, the word "gay" for a homosexual went from a gay community word to mainstream on the television, something I remember my Mother being critical about, "it used to be such a nice happy word before this", not a good environment to come out as gay! A decade later the more acceptable and correct word "transgender" gradually replaced our usage of "transexual" and right now "genderqueer" is becoming a popular word to apply, it's even on Wikidata :-). However, in a more connected world, neologisms appear and become accepted faster, and 15 years feels like a long view for these changes.
Seeing /some/ of our mainstream projects taking action to adopt gender neutral terms, even if only at policy level, will encourage other websites to do the same. Rather than a political act, I see continuing to talk about it, and not giving up on trying to adapt and improve our approach where reasonable to do so, simply a way of striving to our goal of feeling like a welcome environment for everyone to read and everyone to edit. I cannot accept the status quo where some minorities feel excluded by our systems and policies, but I don't have to, as we are not standing still. :-)
Links: 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_neutral_language
Thanks Fae
The focus should not be what some users want to call other users, but on what users want to call themselves.
" I cannot accept the status quo where some minorities feel excluded by our systems and policies, but I don't have to, as we are not standing still."
Then I think you should reconsider. Users will leave if you start messing with how they address other users.
On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 9:17 AM, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
On 7 April 2017 at 06:39, Anders Wennersten mail@anderswennersten.se wrote: ...
So when it comes to how we use them in documents related to WIkipedia,
is to
not use any of them. It is a little bit more complicated but it is quite possible. "The person who takes a photo should" etc
And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream
(if
it ever will be)
Anders
Thanks for the 'hen' example. The new policy on Wikimedia Commons[1] for gender neutral language has precisely the Swedish Wikipedia working solution as the best solution, i.e. to avoid unnecessary gendered pronouns where /reasonable/. For policies in English at least, that actually turns out to be almost all the time.
It sounds like capturing what you currently do, can easily become your local gender neutral policy. It may not be perfect, but it would be a focus for discussion and by having these visible steps to attempt to address the issue, those most affected will feel acknowledged rather than dismissed.
Many of us have been contributing to the Wikimedia Foundation's strategy consultation, thinking of what our projects might become in 15 years. When you look that far ahead, it seems possible to plan for these changes happening, including seeing a few "leftist/feminist" possibilities like the Swedish 'hen' becoming mainstream.
When I was a teenager, the word "gay" for a homosexual went from a gay community word to mainstream on the television, something I remember my Mother being critical about, "it used to be such a nice happy word before this", not a good environment to come out as gay! A decade later the more acceptable and correct word "transgender" gradually replaced our usage of "transexual" and right now "genderqueer" is becoming a popular word to apply, it's even on Wikidata :-). However, in a more connected world, neologisms appear and become accepted faster, and 15 years feels like a long view for these changes.
Seeing /some/ of our mainstream projects taking action to adopt gender neutral terms, even if only at policy level, will encourage other websites to do the same. Rather than a political act, I see continuing to talk about it, and not giving up on trying to adapt and improve our approach where reasonable to do so, simply a way of striving to our goal of feeling like a welcome environment for everyone to read and everyone to edit. I cannot accept the status quo where some minorities feel excluded by our systems and policies, but I don't have to, as we are not standing still. :-)
Links:
neutral_language
Thanks Fae
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hi John,
Thanks for highlighting this point. The gender neutral policies we are putting in place simply ensure that our policy, guidelines and help pages use gender neutral language where reasonable to do so. These policies do not apply to what our users write on discussion pages when referring to themselves. So, nobody is intending to start messing with how users address other users... within the limits of our civility policies of course! :-)
A point raised earlier is that it would be great for us to start thinking about whether the MediaWiki software should be improved to allow users to define their preferred pronoun, so when our systems leave automated messages, they are written to the user's preference, including non-binary terms (like 'hen' in Swedish) rather than "unspecified". This has been discussed, see https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T29744 as an example, but would probably need a larger community consensus, in fact a local consensus in each language, to move forward.
Thanks, Fae Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT
On 7 April 2017 at 10:27, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
The focus should not be what some users want to call other users, but on what users want to call themselves.
" I cannot accept the status quo where some minorities feel excluded by our systems and policies, but I don't have to, as we are not standing still."
Then I think you should reconsider. Users will leave if you start messing with how they address other users.
On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 9:17 AM, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
On 7 April 2017 at 06:39, Anders Wennersten mail@anderswennersten.se wrote: ...
So when it comes to how we use them in documents related to WIkipedia,
is to
not use any of them. It is a little bit more complicated but it is quite possible. "The person who takes a photo should" etc
And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream
(if
it ever will be)
Anders
Thanks for the 'hen' example. The new policy on Wikimedia Commons[1] for gender neutral language has precisely the Swedish Wikipedia working solution as the best solution, i.e. to avoid unnecessary gendered pronouns where /reasonable/. For policies in English at least, that actually turns out to be almost all the time.
It sounds like capturing what you currently do, can easily become your local gender neutral policy. It may not be perfect, but it would be a focus for discussion and by having these visible steps to attempt to address the issue, those most affected will feel acknowledged rather than dismissed.
Many of us have been contributing to the Wikimedia Foundation's strategy consultation, thinking of what our projects might become in 15 years. When you look that far ahead, it seems possible to plan for these changes happening, including seeing a few "leftist/feminist" possibilities like the Swedish 'hen' becoming mainstream.
When I was a teenager, the word "gay" for a homosexual went from a gay community word to mainstream on the television, something I remember my Mother being critical about, "it used to be such a nice happy word before this", not a good environment to come out as gay! A decade later the more acceptable and correct word "transgender" gradually replaced our usage of "transexual" and right now "genderqueer" is becoming a popular word to apply, it's even on Wikidata :-). However, in a more connected world, neologisms appear and become accepted faster, and 15 years feels like a long view for these changes.
Seeing /some/ of our mainstream projects taking action to adopt gender neutral terms, even if only at policy level, will encourage other websites to do the same. Rather than a political act, I see continuing to talk about it, and not giving up on trying to adapt and improve our approach where reasonable to do so, simply a way of striving to our goal of feeling like a welcome environment for everyone to read and everyone to edit. I cannot accept the status quo where some minorities feel excluded by our systems and policies, but I don't have to, as we are not standing still. :-)
Links:
neutral_language
Thanks Fae
Dear Antoine, it is solvable in French and there are some very good practice manual online here is one from Switzerland https://www.unige.ch/rectorat/egalite/files/9414/0353/2732/charte_epicene_Ch... https://www.unige.ch/rectorat/egalite/files/9414/0353/2732/charte_epicene_Chancelerie_guide_formulation_non_sexiste.pdf.
You might all appreciate an English review of these themes from an academic perspective : http://www.fairlanguage.org/medias http://www.fairlanguage.org/medias
The form you cite underneath "Un/une adminstra-teur-trice » would never be used. One would rather write "un administrateur ou une administratrice » in this case.
Kind regards,
Nattes à chat
Le 6 avr. 2017 à 13:30, Antoine Musso hashar+wmf@free.fr a écrit :
Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
I'm taking that further by proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies and help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely confuses me or at best. The example takes a sentence from Commons:FAQ which roughly looks like:
A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is used.
With the proposal to instead:
A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
Why isn't "picture" plural as well? If using masculine as a neutral pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one can instead write:
A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other languages. For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine). What some are advocating is using:
Un/une photographe
If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for 'administrateur':
Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages most probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
-- Antoine "hashar" Musso
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org