On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 5:18 AM, Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com wrote:
I find here a wrong assupmtion. First wrong assumption is "Written Chinese is not very different for millenniums", they aren't same, and consequently Edo period Japanese who were taught Classical Chinese already found difficulty to understand the contemporary which was similar to the modern one. Second wrong assumption is "person who knows Classical Chinese has to know modern Chinese." In East Asia, Classical Chinese had been lingua franca of the literate for millenniums, and there are many written sources, the earliest of them are dated at mid 19th C. And it is still taught in some countries including Japan. I, as a highly educated Japanese, read Classical Chinese to some extent, but I don't understand modern Chinese beyond the tourist level. I know many people who can enjoy zh-classical-Wikipedia but cannot (modern) zhwiki. So I object your statement and it wouldn't be just a fork of ZhWS but preferable to be a multilingual project.
Yes, we have problems with Chinese languages and it is not just about Classical Chinese. And if you have some good sinologist around, please connect me with him or her.
The logic behind rejecting Classical Chinese Wikisource is:
1) Wikisource can have sources in various languages. It is useful not to duplicate efforts with living languages (and put Japanese text on French Wikisource), but, for example, the logical place for texts in Slavenoserbian [1] is Serbian Wikisource. Relation between Anglo-Saxon and English is similar. According to this premise, Classical Chinese should go to Chinese Wikisource.
2) Just those ancient languages which are significantly different structurally in *written form* (as Wikimedia projects are still about written language) should be considered for having a separate Wikisource. According to this, Slavenoserbian and Anglo-Saxon would get projects, while it will be problematic for Classical Chinese: it looks to me that native Chinese speakers treat Classical Chinese as not so different, while other East Asians treat it so.
3) Just those ancient languages which don't have modern language which speakers consist approximately a superset of those who know that classical language -- should be considered for having a separate project. Every single person who knows Slavoserbian knows Serbian, which is true for Anglo-Saxon, too. But, it is not true for Classical Chinese.
4) Just those ancient languages which had significant productions should be considered to have separate Wikisource. Anglo-Saxon had significant production, Slavoserbian had, and, of course, Classical Chinese had, too.
5) We need [default] interface in a living language. The most logical choice for Classical Chinese is modern Chinese written in Traditional Hanji. In conjunction with (1) and (2), it would create a subset-fork of Chinese Wikisource.
BTW, we are in a wiki world. Everything is changeable, but we need good reasons for changes. I would like to hear answers/confirmations on the next questions/claims:
a) For Chinese speakers: Do you consider Classical Chinese as a language different from your native one or you are fully able to read Classical Chinese texts? Probably, it is somewhere in the middle, but, please, explain it.
b) I suppose that it is not so hard to make a link from Japanese Wikipedia to some text on Chinese Wikisource. Actually, it would be similar if it would be about a separate Classical Chinese Wikisource.
c) Are Japanese, Vietnamese, Korean etc. Wikimedian are able to contribute to Chinese Wikisource. If not, what is the problem?
Other thoughs are welcome, as well.
On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 5:18 AM, Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com wrote:
I find here a wrong assupmtion. First wrong assumption is "Written Chinese is not very different for millenniums", they aren't same, and consequently Edo period Japanese who were taught Classical Chinese already found difficulty to understand the contemporary which was similar to the modern one. Second wrong assumption is "person who knows Classical Chinese has to know modern Chinese." In East Asia, Classical Chinese had been lingua franca of the literate for millenniums, and there are many written sources, the earliest of them are dated at mid 19th C. And it is still taught in some countries including Japan. I, as a highly educated Japanese, read Classical Chinese to some extent, but I don't understand modern Chinese beyond the tourist level. I know many people who can enjoy zh-classical-Wikipedia but cannot (modern) zhwiki. So I object your statement and it wouldn't be just a fork of ZhWS but preferable to be a multilingual project.
Yes, we have problems with Chinese languages and it is not just about Classical Chinese. And if you have some good sinologist around, please connect me with him or her.
The logic behind rejecting Classical Chinese Wikisource is:
- Wikisource can have sources in various languages. It is useful not
to duplicate efforts with living languages (and put Japanese text on French Wikisource), but, for example, the logical place for texts in Slavenoserbian [1] is Serbian Wikisource. Relation between Anglo-Saxon and English is similar. According to this premise, Classical Chinese should go to Chinese Wikisource.
- Just those ancient languages which are significantly different
structurally in *written form* (as Wikimedia projects are still about written language) should be considered for having a separate Wikisource. According to this, Slavenoserbian and Anglo-Saxon would get projects, while it will be problematic for Classical Chinese: it looks to me that native Chinese speakers treat Classical Chinese as not so different, while other East Asians treat it so.
- Just those ancient languages which don't have modern language which
speakers consist approximately a superset of those who know that classical language -- should be considered for having a separate project. Every single person who knows Slavoserbian knows Serbian, which is true for Anglo-Saxon, too. But, it is not true for Classical Chinese.
- Just those ancient languages which had significant productions
should be considered to have separate Wikisource. Anglo-Saxon had significant production, Slavoserbian had, and, of course, Classical Chinese had, too.
- We need [default] interface in a living language. The most logical
choice for Classical Chinese is modern Chinese written in Traditional Hanji. In conjunction with (1) and (2), it would create a subset-fork of Chinese Wikisource.
BTW, we are in a wiki world. Everything is changeable, but we need good reasons for changes. I would like to hear answers/confirmations on the next questions/claims:
a) For Chinese speakers: Do you consider Classical Chinese as a language different from your native one or you are fully able to read Classical Chinese texts? Probably, it is somewhere in the middle, but, please, explain it.
b) I suppose that it is not so hard to make a link from Japanese Wikipedia to some text on Chinese Wikisource. Actually, it would be similar if it would be about a separate Classical Chinese Wikisource.
c) Are Japanese, Vietnamese, Korean etc. Wikimedian are able to contribute to Chinese Wikisource. If not, what is the problem?
Orthography is a big problem. I think you have known it already on Serbian language - two different scripts are used and what it evoked. We are in a similar situation.
At this moment Classical Chinese sources are hosted on zhwikisource whose default is simplified Chinese. Formerly some of them were in traditional and then we at Japanese wikis had no problem, since it is quasi similar the orthography we were educated in. But with simplified we have a big problem.
Please note I don't talk about default I/F. I talk about the documents themselves. I am okay which zhwiki* choose for their default, but the written way of Classical Chinese should not be determined by Chinese native speakers ony I think - rather all concerned people should be invited.
Other thoughs are welcome, as well.
[1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavoserbian
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On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 7:56 AM, Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 5:18 AM, Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com wrote:
I find here a wrong assupmtion. First wrong assumption is "Written Chinese is not very different for millenniums", they aren't same, and consequently Edo period Japanese who were taught Classical Chinese already found difficulty to understand the contemporary which was similar to the modern one. Second wrong assumption is "person who knows Classical Chinese has to know modern Chinese." In East Asia, Classical Chinese had been lingua franca of the literate for millenniums, and there are many written sources, the earliest of them are dated at mid 19th C. And it is still taught in some countries including Japan. I, as a highly educated Japanese, read Classical Chinese to some extent, but I don't understand modern Chinese beyond the tourist level. I know many people who can enjoy zh-classical-Wikipedia but cannot (modern) zhwiki. So I object your statement and it wouldn't be just a fork of ZhWS but preferable to be a multilingual project.
Yes, we have problems with Chinese languages and it is not just about Classical Chinese. And if you have some good sinologist around, please connect me with him or her.
The logic behind rejecting Classical Chinese Wikisource is:
- Wikisource can have sources in various languages. It is useful not
to duplicate efforts with living languages (and put Japanese text on French Wikisource), but, for example, the logical place for texts in Slavenoserbian [1] is Serbian Wikisource. Relation between Anglo-Saxon and English is similar. According to this premise, Classical Chinese should go to Chinese Wikisource.
- Just those ancient languages which are significantly different
structurally in *written form* (as Wikimedia projects are still about written language) should be considered for having a separate Wikisource. According to this, Slavenoserbian and Anglo-Saxon would get projects, while it will be problematic for Classical Chinese: it looks to me that native Chinese speakers treat Classical Chinese as not so different, while other East Asians treat it so.
- Just those ancient languages which don't have modern language which
speakers consist approximately a superset of those who know that classical language -- should be considered for having a separate project. Every single person who knows Slavoserbian knows Serbian, which is true for Anglo-Saxon, too. But, it is not true for Classical Chinese.
- Just those ancient languages which had significant productions
should be considered to have separate Wikisource. Anglo-Saxon had significant production, Slavoserbian had, and, of course, Classical Chinese had, too.
- We need [default] interface in a living language. The most logical
choice for Classical Chinese is modern Chinese written in Traditional Hanji. In conjunction with (1) and (2), it would create a subset-fork of Chinese Wikisource.
BTW, we are in a wiki world. Everything is changeable, but we need good reasons for changes. I would like to hear answers/confirmations on the next questions/claims:
a) For Chinese speakers: Do you consider Classical Chinese as a language different from your native one or you are fully able to read Classical Chinese texts? Probably, it is somewhere in the middle, but, please, explain it.
b) I suppose that it is not so hard to make a link from Japanese Wikipedia to some text on Chinese Wikisource. Actually, it would be similar if it would be about a separate Classical Chinese Wikisource.
c) Are Japanese, Vietnamese, Korean etc. Wikimedian are able to contribute to Chinese Wikisource. If not, what is the problem?
Orthography is a big problem. I think you have known it already on Serbian language - two different scripts are used and what it evoked. We are in a similar situation.
At this moment Classical Chinese sources are hosted on zhwikisource whose default is simplified Chinese. Formerly some of them were in traditional and then we at Japanese wikis had no problem, since it is quasi similar the orthography we were educated in. But with simplified we have a big problem.
Couldn't the links from Japanese Wikipedia pages be configured to go directly to the traditional Chinese orthography versions?
Thanks, Pharos
Please note I don't talk about default I/F. I talk about the documents themselves. I am okay which zhwiki* choose for their default, but the written way of Classical Chinese should not be determined by Chinese native speakers ony I think - rather all concerned people should be invited.
Other thoughs are welcome, as well.
[1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavoserbian
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