Hello,
There are many projects in small languages. People want to develop them, but are often not sure what should they do. Even something basic like "improve existing pages and write new ones" may not be obvious.
Is there something like a "task list for new projects"? Something like:
* Write new articles about your own culture * Translate articles about worldwide topics from big Wikipedias * Create useful templates, like {{welcome}, {{citation needed}}, {{infobox}}, {{delete}} etc. * Write content policies * Write help pages about MediaWiki (that's a big topic for its own thread) * Complete and maintain the translation of MediaWiki and extensions in translatewiki.net * Create pages for Village pump, Administrator notice board, Help desk etc. * Watch Recent changes * Periodically delete articles that were marked for speedy deletion etc.
(Of course, for Wikisource, Wikibooks etc. the task list would somewhat different.)
I was about to write such page for the Punjabi Wikipedia, which I kinda adopted in the last few months, but then thought that something like this may exist already. Is anybody familiar with anything?
Thank you.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
Amir E. Aharoni, 31/07/2012 08:35:
Hello,
There are many projects in small languages. People want to develop them, but are often not sure what should they do. Even something basic like "improve existing pages and write new ones" may not be obvious.
Is there something like a "task list for new projects"?
Yes, a few heroes wrote https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Manual_for_small_and_new_Wikipedias a while ago (thanks!) but they've never been helped enough to make it complete (and more general). This can be useful too: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikimedia_projects_coordination (we need more work on pages like those).
Nemo
A bot that can be given a list of the important templates, or categories of templates, would be good for starting a new project. Once articles exist, at least some meaning comes through and it's more likely people will edit them.
(Machine translations would be nice too, but realistically if a machine translator exists for a language then we usually have a wiki for it. It might still be useful for a whole new project - eg a new area of coverage that is going to be set up in common languages. It might not be perfect but some meaning will come through and it'll help, much like town/city/village bot articles did.) FT2
On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:09 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.comwrote:
Amir E. Aharoni, 31/07/2012 08:35:
Hello,
There are many projects in small languages. People want to develop them, but are often not sure what should they do. Even something basic like "improve existing pages and write new ones" may not be obvious.
Is there something like a "task list for new projects"?
Yes, a few heroes wrote <https://meta.wikimedia.org/** wiki/Manual_for_small_and_new_**Wikipediashttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Manual_for_small_and_new_Wikipedias> a while ago (thanks!) but they've never been helped enough to make it complete (and more general). This can be useful too: <https://meta.wikimedia.org/** wiki/Category:Wikimedia_**projects_coordinationhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikimedia_projects_coordination> (we need more work on pages like those).
Nemo
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FT2 wrote:
A bot that can be given a list of the important templates, or categories of templates, would be good for starting a new project. Once articles exist, at least some meaning comes through and it's more likely people will edit them.
Maybe.
People should be _extremely_ cautious when using bots to try to propagate (new) wikis. Page-creation bots are a form of inorganic growth in a place (a wiki) that demands organic growth.[1] Wikis must, by and large, evolve over time naturally, otherwise the bots risk damaging the culture of the wiki or, in rare cases, it's possible for these bots to kill the wiki entirely.[2]
This isn't to say that pulling in templates from other wikis can't be useful (of course it can be [though remember to attribute your source!]), but if mass page creation is done with a bot, it needs to be done with exceeding caution and accompanied by a full assessment of the impact of these page creations. The effects of these page creations is of course amplified on smaller, more vulnerable wikis, though the caution to avoid mass page creation largely applies equally to larger wikis as well. That is, 10,000 new and unused templates on a small Wikipedia that only has 400 articles is terrible, but it's not as though the English Wikipedia or any other established Wikipedia with millions of articles wants 10,000 unused templates either.
MZMcBride
[1] Wikis have been previously compared to children. "Creating a wiki is like creating a baby, yes you should have a good reason to create one, but if you don't for whatever reason, you should have an _extra_ good reason for killing one," bawolff once infamously said. In this case, the inorganic growth is analogous to cancer or anabolic steroid use.
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/BOTOVERUSE#History has most of the history, though I could swear a project or two has been "restarted" due to bots over-running the site. Does anyone have a citation for that?
MZMcBride, 01/08/2012 03:10:
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/BOTOVERUSE#History has most of the history, though I could swear a project or two has been "restarted" due to bots over-running the site. Does anyone have a citation for that?
A citation for what? Anyway, the section seems correct except that it greatly overstates the importance of bot-created articles in the problems denounced by the "faction of the Lombard wikipedians" and in the consequences of its intervention (which was mostly meant as a brute-force restoration of the five pillars).
Nemo
Looks good! This list is about right, and having been part of setting up zh-yue.wp I agree it'd be much better to make sure founders of new Wikipedia language editions have this list.
A few comments though: I wouldn't put that much emphasis on MediaWiki help pages. In addition, village pump, admin noticeboard and help desks are overrated; they're much better dealt with being one centralised discussion board to begin with, then split if there's adequate participation.
Deryck
On 31 July 2012 07:35, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
Hello,
There are many projects in small languages. People want to develop them, but are often not sure what should they do. Even something basic like "improve existing pages and write new ones" may not be obvious.
Is there something like a "task list for new projects"? Something like:
- Write new articles about your own culture
- Translate articles about worldwide topics from big Wikipedias
- Create useful templates, like {{welcome}, {{citation needed}},
{{infobox}}, {{delete}} etc.
- Write content policies
- Write help pages about MediaWiki (that's a big topic for its own thread)
- Complete and maintain the translation of MediaWiki and extensions in
translatewiki.net
- Create pages for Village pump, Administrator notice board, Help desk etc.
- Watch Recent changes
- Periodically delete articles that were marked for speedy deletion
etc.
(Of course, for Wikisource, Wikibooks etc. the task list would somewhat different.)
I was about to write such page for the Punjabi Wikipedia, which I kinda adopted in the last few months, but then thought that something like this may exist already. Is anybody familiar with anything?
Thank you.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Deryck Chan, 31/07/2012 12:23:
In addition, village pump, admin noticeboard and help desks are overrated; they're much better dealt with being one centralised discussion board to begin with, then split if there's adequate participation.
Overrated? Most wikis don't have any of those [allegedly]! :-) (Only some random page chosen by us as their equivalent, which gets spammed with central notifications.)
Nemo
On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
- Create useful templates, like {{welcome}, {{citation needed}},
{{infobox}}, {{delete}} etc.
Wikidata should fix the issue with templates. Thus, soon the manual should be fixed with "translate templates <1>, <2>... <N> into your language at Wikidata".
Milos Rancic, 31/07/2012 12:53:
On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
- Create useful templates, like {{welcome}, {{citation needed}},
{{infobox}}, {{delete}} etc.
Wikidata should fix the issue with templates. Thus, soon the manual should be fixed with "translate templates <1>, <2>... <N> into your language at Wikidata".
Really? Where is this discussed/specified in more detail? Cf. https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Thread:Support/A_step_forward_in_the_internationalization_of_very_common_templates.
Nemo
Wikidata will still help with the task at hand, but it should be formulated as:
- Translate certain templates, like city templates etc., to the target language - Provide labels to relevant items on Wikidata in the target language
Simplified this means the template
''City'' Country: {{#getfromwikidata:country}}
would need to be translated in the target wiki to
"Stadt" Land: {{#getfromwikidata:land}}
and the actual country would need a label in the target language in Wikidata (i.e. "Österreich" for the item on Austria, etc.) and the city the template is used needs to be linked to the respective Wikidata item. This will help with starting Wikipedias quite a bit, but there is no magic involved.
Cheers, Denny
2012/7/31 Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com:
Milos Rancic, 31/07/2012 12:53:
On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
- Create useful templates, like {{welcome}, {{citation needed}},
{{infobox}}, {{delete}} etc.
Wikidata should fix the issue with templates. Thus, soon the manual should be fixed with "translate templates <1>, <2>... <N> into your language at Wikidata".
Really? Where is this discussed/specified in more detail? Cf. https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Thread:Support/A_step_forward_in_the_internationalization_of_very_common_templates.
Nemo
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2012/7/31 Denny Vrandečić denny.vrandecic@wikimedia.de:
Country: {{#getfromwikidata:country}}
And this is just a place holder syntax for now.
On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 12:53 PM, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
- Create useful templates, like {{welcome}, {{citation needed}},
{{infobox}}, {{delete}} etc.
Wikidata should fix the issue with templates. Thus, soon the manual should be fixed with "translate templates <1>, <2>... <N> into your language at Wikidata".
To clarify this a bit in case it is unclear: Wikidata will not centralize the templates themselves but only the data in the templates. This data can then be localized.
Cheers Lydia
On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 09:35:49AM +0300, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
Hello,
There are many projects in small languages. People want to develop them, but are often not sure what should they do. Even something basic like "improve existing pages and write new ones" may not be obvious.
Is there something like a "task list for new projects"? Something like:
Chenneling Siebrand and Gerard: Go to translatewiki.net and translate the UI for your language? (if not already done)
sincerely, Kim Bruning
On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 2:35 AM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
- Translate articles about worldwide topics from big Wikipedias
There's also this list: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_Wikipedia_should_have
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org