Hi,
Robert Horning wrote:
Mathias wrote:
Such a wiki has been launched in french (in which I am
involved) see an english explanation about it: http://fr.vikidia.org/index.php/Vikidia:About and in Dutch (see http://kennisnet.wikia.com/wikikids/wiki/Wikikids:English_explanation None of them are Wikimedia project.)
Both have a quite active community and have reached 1000
articles.
(...) And Wikijunior is also quite multilingual, with some sort of Wikijunior project on nearly every language edition of
Wikibooks,
including French, German, Italian, Spanish, Chinese, and
English. In
many cases these "articles" or "modules" have been translated or rewritten in multiple languages as well, especially the original Wikijunior books of the Solar System and the Big Cats.
And Wikijunior is clearly a Wikimedia project in its own
right, other
than it is hosted concurrently with Wikibooks. Try http://en.wikijunior.org/ to see where the wikijunior domain
goes.
This isn't to say that some effort shouldn't happen to
perhaps expand
the range of this proposal, but it seems like the largest
problem it has
faced is an ever fragmenting community and leaders who
havn't had the
desire to keep the project moving. Writing literary content for children is not an easy task, and it takes a focused
community to keep
the project growing.
Wikijunior is clearly a wikibooks project. I mean that it is not a Wikipedia-like project, and being hosted on the wikibooks wiki makes impossible several feature of Wikipedia. For example you can't make easy internal wikilinks : wikilink to "Aluminum" is not [[Aluminum]] but [[Wikijunior The Elements/Aluminum]]. The "oxygen" page: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikijunior_The_Elements/Oxygen should only tell about the element, not the dioxygen gas. (it does indeed, and doesn't make it clear between one and the other) and it doesn't make it easy to create another page about the gas, since this wikibooks is about the elements.
Another point is that Wikijunior "only" aims to produce and offer content for children whereas Wikikids.nl and Vikidia want children to be involved in building this content. We want to let them be active with knowledge for pedagogical interest. See this article : http://edutechwiki.unige.ch/en/Writing-to-learn
I don't think that "fragmenting community and leaders" is a real danger now that several Wikipedia have reached such a huge size both in articles and in editors.
Some people have had the idea to make either special articles or a special wiki for children of each grade, or even for each grade AND each school. (because you would have to explain in a different way to a 9 years old child than to a 12 years old) see this discusion: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Talk:Wikis_for_children) I feel that it would be "fragmenting community" and that one single encyclopedic wiki for 8 to 13 year old children and for one language is a fair middle.
As for the health of Wikijunior books, many of them have reached "featured book" status as some of the "best of..."
Wikibooks, and on
en.wikbooks I would say that you could easily get much more
than 1000
modules that could easily seed an en.wikikids project. Many
of these
modules could on their own reach featured article status on en.wikipedia, but for the fact they are not on Wikipedia.
Rather than
try to dissect what went wrong with the previous attempt at
an English
language version of this project, I would suggest that you
try and see
what has been done "right" by Wikijunior and its development
community.
And certainly try to pool the efforts of this "Wikikids"
group and those
who are writing "Wikijunior" content. I have not seen any
effort to
recruit those involved with Wikijunior to help with this
proposal in any
meaningful way.
Do you tell about this attempt ? http://editthis.info/wikikidsen/Main_Page I didn't look at it closely, but I am afraid that it wasn't lead in a proper way. Another think is that there is "simple english wikipedia", whom no other equivalent have been created in any other language. I guess that it would make less easy to create a wikikids in english, as it would be partly similar to simple, and I would also say that the fact that this wiki is not so big and hasn't been created in other language may show that its aim would not be so clear, mobilizing and justifying.
The idea to seed from wikijunior could be good, so as the idea to create such wiki on the Vikidia and Wikikids.nl model. I can't say about Wikikids.nl, but if by chance they would be some encyclopedic wikis dedicated to children to open in other language, Vikidia (in french) would rather become a wikimedia project and work on it together than see them created by isolated groups in each language.
Hope to hear from you,
Mathias Damour
Créez votre adresse électronique prenom.nom@laposte.net 1 Go d'espace de stockage, anti-spam et anti-virus intégrés.
mathias.damour wrote:
not a Wikipedia-like project, and being hosted on the wikibooks wiki makes impossible several feature of Wikipedia. For example you can't make easy internal wikilinks : wikilink to "Aluminum" is not [[Aluminum]] but [[Wikijunior The Elements/Aluminum]]. The "oxygen" page: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikijunior_The_Elements/Oxygen should only tell about the element, not the dioxygen gas. (it does indeed, and doesn't make it clear between one and the other) and it doesn't make it easy to create another page about the gas, since this wikibooks is about the elements.
Part of the complaint here falls in the "SOFIXIT" reply, but I would like to point out that you *can* provide links using Wiki markup to things like Aluminum like this: [[Wikijunior The Elements/Aluminum|Aluminum]]. It isn't quite so pretty looking or intuitive, but this is something that nearly everything on Wikibooks has to deal with. Certainly as a full blown Wikimedia sister project this wouldn't be as big of a problem, but it would be a problem even if you were using the Wikimedia incubator. I'm just trying to suggest an alternative that is already in development by individuals who are trying to develop content explicitly written for children.
Another point is that Wikijunior "only" aims to produce and offer content for children whereas Wikikids.nl and Vikidia want children to be involved in building this content. We want to let them be active with knowledge for pedagogical interest. See this article : http://edutechwiki.unige.ch/en/Writing-to-learn
I have serious doubts about the ability of children to get involved in this process, other than to the extent that they already are involved with Wikimedia projects. There are minors (including some that have administrator access... as discussed in some earlier threads) who are involved with Wikipedia content (and a few I suspected on Wikibooks as well), but these tend to be kids that are exceptionally motivated. And they participate on Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects as peers to everybody else who is a contributor, with no special distinction. While the idea of having kids write for kids sounds appealing on paper, a bunch of 4th graders write like... well... a bunch of 4th graders. They are still trying to learn the basic mechanics of writing, and ought to be learning how to write from those who have already mastered the skill, not from those who are still apprentices in the subject. I digress if you think some contributors on Wikipedia don't know how to write, but that more or less proves my point as well.
I don't think that "fragmenting community and leaders" is a real danger now that several Wikipedia have reached such a huge size both in articles and in editors.
Some people have had the idea to make either special articles or a special wiki for children of each grade, or even for each grade AND each school. (because you would have to explain in a different way to a 9 years old child than to a 12 years old) see this discusion: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Talk:Wikis_for_children) I feel that it would be "fragmenting community" and that one single encyclopedic wiki for 8 to 13 year old children and for one language is a fair middle.
What I'm trying to point out is that those who are involved with Wikijunior were not even contacted about this idea in the first place when the idea was originally brought up on Meta, and suggestions on Meta to look at the Wikijunior project as perhaps something to work with were met with incredible hostility by those suggesting this Wikikids project. This doesn't have to be an either-or situation, as I believe the sum is healthier than the individual parts alone. It is the leadership and communications that I'm talking about, for a very diffuse community that has shown some struggles in the past.
Wikijunior is clearly a wikibooks project. I mean that it is
As for the health of Wikijunior books, many of them have reached "featured book" status as some of the "best of..."
Do you tell about this attempt ? http://editthis.info/wikikidsen/Main_Page I didn't look at it closely, but I am afraid that it wasn't lead in a proper way. Another think is that there is "simple english wikipedia", whom no other equivalent have been created in any other language. I guess that it would make less easy to create a wikikids in english, as it would be partly similar to simple, and I would also say that the fact that this wiki is not so big and hasn't been created in other language may show that its aim would not be so clear, mobilizing and justifying.
That is not really fair for the Simple English community, and attempts have been made to create similar groups for other major languages, with Simple Spanish as one I've seen proposed on Meta as well. I would agree that your goals are quite a bit different than the Simple English community, as they are explicitly trying to write for adults who don't have a grasp of the English Language due to the fact that they are still learning the language. This is similar to adult literacy vs. child literacy teaching methods. I don't think they are quite so different in the end, but this is approaching the subject (simplified content) from very different directions.
The idea to seed from wikijunior could be good, so as the idea to create such wiki on the Vikidia and Wikikids.nl model. I can't say about Wikikids.nl, but if by chance they would be some encyclopedic wikis dedicated to children to open in other language, Vikidia (in french) would rather become a wikimedia project and work on it together than see them created by isolated groups in each language.
Hope to hear from you,
Mathias Damour
Créez votre adresse électronique prenom.nom@laposte.net 1 Go d'espace de stockage, anti-spam et anti-virus intégrés.
I hope that you have been to see the French Wikijunior project (http://fr.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikijunior), while not as complete as the English Wikijunior, does have some content that can be used on Vikidia. And that is part of what I'm trying to suggest here is that there are content developers with Wikibooks (working on the French Language edition of Wikijunior) that aren't even aware of Vikidia. This is something that can and should change.
I am presuming that you are writing about this because you want to seek input from the Wikimedia community, and would like to enlist support for those who might want to get involved with a project of this nature. I'm merely suggesting here that there are individuals who may want to join in this sort of project, and you should try to join with these efforts. There have been some attempts in the past to move Wikijunior to a completely separate project and domain name, including forming Wikijunior as a completely independent Wikimedia sister project. One of these proposals, and not rejected by the Wikijunior community, was to move to a more Wikipedia-like format of articles rather than the themed collections organized into books such as currently exist on Wikibooks. Please ask those involved with the development of Wikijunior to at least comment on your ideas. For English Wikijunior, the best place is at http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Talk:Wikijunior
What all this concept is lacking is a very motivated leader who is willing to take the next step and demonstrate that there is a large concensus among those want to go this route. And unlike the problems that existed with Wikiversity on Wikibooks, there is virtually nobody who wants to see Wikijunior "kicked off" of Wikibooks. Wikijunior enjoys a nearly independent existence without having to worry about the project overhead of maintaining a separate group of admins, and a strongly symbiotic relationship exists as well between Wikibooks and Wikijunior to bring new users and contributors to both projects. I think that Wikijunior would struggle with a great many issues if it had an independent existence at the moment that it doesn't have to worry about right now.
Robert Horning
There are a few issues here, which should perhaps be addressed by more than one project.
1) Simplifying language
Finding a way to provide versions of articles targeted at different audiences -- different levels of jargon or language complexity -- would be a valuable achievement. Our early effort with Simple-English remains a hack which needs improvement and localization.
Examples: simple english, simple spanish
2) Writing for children
There is a long tradition of providing children with books about the world, including drawings, games, and activities; with a shift in focus, layout, and tone from more general encyclopedias. At the same time, I believe that most full-length English encyclopedias have for decades been primarily marketed for home use by schoolchildren...
Examples: Andrew Cates' SOS selection of Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Wikipedia_CD_Selection Wikijunior http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikijunior
3) Projects by and for children
There is a need for space for younger authors to develop and share their own work. This may or may not be directly related to one of the above projects.
Examples: Few. UNICEF's Voices of Youth project offers some space for this sort of collaboration among their young contributors.
4) Packaging things into books v. ongoing development of articles
This has been a slightly confusing distinction since we started putting 'books' into digital form, breaking the traditions of bound and printed works one by one. There are useful distinctions b/t wikipedia and wikibooks, and likewise between a children's encyclopedia idea and wikijunior, but they are as much philosophical as unavoidable. This is especially true as books become more and more modular, and parts of books are used in multiple works.
-----
It would be good to start a discussion and collaboration including interested groups... and to seed a children's encyclopedia with some of the existing material that is in other formats.
The advantage to 3) over the others is that projects whose primary audience can contribute directly to their development have an excellent model for sustained growth.
SJ
On Mon, 28 May 2007, mathias.damour wrote:
Hi,
Robert Horning wrote:
Mathias wrote:
Such a wiki has been launched in french (in which I am
involved) see an english explanation about it: http://fr.vikidia.org/index.php/Vikidia:About and in Dutch (see http://kennisnet.wikia.com/wikikids/wiki/Wikikids:English_explanation None of them are Wikimedia project.)
Both have a quite active community and have reached 1000
articles.
(...) And Wikijunior is also quite multilingual, with some sort of Wikijunior project on nearly every language edition of
Wikibooks,
including French, German, Italian, Spanish, Chinese, and
English. In
many cases these "articles" or "modules" have been translated or rewritten in multiple languages as well, especially the original Wikijunior books of the Solar System and the Big Cats.
And Wikijunior is clearly a Wikimedia project in its own
right, other
than it is hosted concurrently with Wikibooks. Try http://en.wikijunior.org/ to see where the wikijunior domain
goes.
This isn't to say that some effort shouldn't happen to
perhaps expand
the range of this proposal, but it seems like the largest
problem it has
faced is an ever fragmenting community and leaders who
havn't had the
desire to keep the project moving. Writing literary content for children is not an easy task, and it takes a focused
community to keep
the project growing.
Wikijunior is clearly a wikibooks project. I mean that it is not a Wikipedia-like project, and being hosted on the wikibooks wiki makes impossible several feature of Wikipedia. For example you can't make easy internal wikilinks : wikilink to "Aluminum" is not [[Aluminum]] but [[Wikijunior The Elements/Aluminum]]. The "oxygen" page: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikijunior_The_Elements/Oxygen should only tell about the element, not the dioxygen gas. (it does indeed, and doesn't make it clear between one and the other) and it doesn't make it easy to create another page about the gas, since this wikibooks is about the elements.
Another point is that Wikijunior "only" aims to produce and offer content for children whereas Wikikids.nl and Vikidia want children to be involved in building this content. We want to let them be active with knowledge for pedagogical interest. See this article : http://edutechwiki.unige.ch/en/Writing-to-learn
I don't think that "fragmenting community and leaders" is a real danger now that several Wikipedia have reached such a huge size both in articles and in editors.
Some people have had the idea to make either special articles or a special wiki for children of each grade, or even for each grade AND each school. (because you would have to explain in a different way to a 9 years old child than to a 12 years old) see this discusion: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Talk:Wikis_for_children) I feel that it would be "fragmenting community" and that one single encyclopedic wiki for 8 to 13 year old children and for one language is a fair middle.
As for the health of Wikijunior books, many of them have reached "featured book" status as some of the "best of..."
Wikibooks, and on
en.wikbooks I would say that you could easily get much more
than 1000
modules that could easily seed an en.wikikids project. Many
of these
modules could on their own reach featured article status on en.wikipedia, but for the fact they are not on Wikipedia.
Rather than
try to dissect what went wrong with the previous attempt at
an English
language version of this project, I would suggest that you
try and see
what has been done "right" by Wikijunior and its development
community.
And certainly try to pool the efforts of this "Wikikids"
group and those
who are writing "Wikijunior" content. I have not seen any
effort to
recruit those involved with Wikijunior to help with this
proposal in any
meaningful way.
Do you tell about this attempt ? http://editthis.info/wikikidsen/Main_Page I didn't look at it closely, but I am afraid that it wasn't lead in a proper way. Another think is that there is "simple english wikipedia", whom no other equivalent have been created in any other language. I guess that it would make less easy to create a wikikids in english, as it would be partly similar to simple, and I would also say that the fact that this wiki is not so big and hasn't been created in other language may show that its aim would not be so clear, mobilizing and justifying.
The idea to seed from wikijunior could be good, so as the idea to create such wiki on the Vikidia and Wikikids.nl model. I can't say about Wikikids.nl, but if by chance they would be some encyclopedic wikis dedicated to children to open in other language, Vikidia (in french) would rather become a wikimedia project and work on it together than see them created by isolated groups in each language.
Hope to hear from you,
Mathias Damour
Cr�ez votre adresse �lectronique prenom.nom@laposte.net 1 Go d'espace de stockage, anti-spam et anti-virus int�gr�s.
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mathias.damour wrote:
I don't think that "fragmenting community and leaders" is a real danger now that several Wikipedia have reached such a huge size both in articles and in editors.
Some people have had the idea to make either special articles or a special wiki for children of each grade, or even for each grade AND each school. (because you would have to explain in a different way to a 9 years old child than to a 12 years old) see this discusion: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Talk:Wikis_for_children) I feel that it would be "fragmenting community" and that one single encyclopedic wiki for 8 to 13 year old children and for one language is a fair middle.
Having separate articles for kids in different grades, rather than having a single project covering a broad age range is not about the information; it's about reading levels which can change considerably between 8 and 13 years old. Where a child finds the material too difficult, he can be completely turned off from reading.
A local school librarian explained to a meeting of parents how this can be a factor for choosing books for school libraries. One thing they try to do, in addition to stocking the library with Harry Potter books is to choose other books with similar themes, but with a less demanding vocabulary. These books can be recommended to poor readers so that they can feel involved in that type of story, and can be encouraged to keep reading.
Ec
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