It has been brought to my attention that Cafepress, which we currently use to sell Wikimedia Merchandise at http://www.cafepress.com/wikipedia , has some privacy issues. Specifically, they have a "web pixel clause":
Pixels. Pixels, also called clear GIFs, are invisible files on Web pages that you visit. If you visit a page on the Site that contains a Pixel, the Pixel communicates with your computer to determine, among other things, whether you have been to that page before or viewed a particular advertisement. We may use Pixels to serve advertising, enhance email advertising and track usage of the Site.
And a somewhat weak personal data disclosure policy:
we may disclose your Personally Identifiable Information when we believe in good faith that it is required by any applicable law or legal process, or if we believe we need to disclose it to protect or enforce our rights *or the rights of our members, users, or other third parties.*
http://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/help/privacy.aspx
I'd like to solicit feedback on - whether these privacy issues are acceptable from the point of view of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. - whether any alternatives exist (i.e. merchandise-on-demand of similar quality).
My point of view, right now, is that if no alternatives exist, we should continue using Cafepress, and add a link to the Wikipedia article about them on the page, where the privacy issues can then discussed from a neutral point of view. However, I'd like to bring this out into the open first. (Incidentally, I'll probably have to start that article as it doesn't seem to exist yet.)
Regards,
Erik
On Fri, May 14, 2004 at 05:01:00AM +0200, Erik Moeller wrote:
I'd like to solicit feedback on
- whether these privacy issues are acceptable from the point of view of
the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
- whether any alternatives exist (i.e. merchandise-on-demand of similar
quality).
For the WikiReaders I'm currently setting up a webshop. I'm still working at it, implementing a multi-seller function. The idea is that everybody can sell printings, CD/DVDs or merchandise stuff on the site. For the sellers the biggest advantage is the central marekt and for the customer cheaper shipping is a big advantage (I neither live in CafePress country nor do I have a credit card). Maybe it's a good time to start discussions about an official Wikimedia shop. Comments?
ciao, tom
--- "Thomas R. Koll" tomk32@gmx.de wrote:
On Fri, May 14, 2004 at 05:01:00AM +0200, Erik Moeller wrote: For the WikiReaders I'm currently setting up a webshop. I'm still working at it, implementing a multi-seller function. The idea is that everybody can sell printings, CD/DVDs or merchandise stuff on the site. For the sellers the biggest advantage is the central marekt and for the customer cheaper shipping is a big advantage (I neither live in CafePress country nor do I have a credit card).
Sounds neat. The fact that CafePress only accepts US dollars and is only in English is a big drawback. On top of that, they are pretty darn expensive.
Maybe it's a good time to start discussions about an official Wikimedia shop. Comments?
I don't know since that would require us to have storage space, a distribution system, a secure server to handle credit cards, and a staff to fill and send out orders and deal with problems. Unfortunately CafePress has very little competition and what little does exist has many of the same problems CafePress does.
After some time searching, this is what I could find (all only in English and only accept US dollars as far as I could tell):
http://www.t-shirts.com/ http://artapart.com/ http://coshops.com/retail/index.asp (looks a bit cheaper than CafePress)
For special events we could order in bulk and distribute merchandise by hand (there still would be storage issues for the leftovers). There are many places that we could use to create good quality merchandise on the cheap. What is expensive is the CafePress-type service.
-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/
On Fri, May 14, 2004 at 03:08:00AM -0700, Daniel Mayer wrote:
--- "Thomas R. Koll" tomk32@gmx.de wrote:
On Fri, May 14, 2004 at 05:01:00AM +0200, Erik Moeller wrote: For the WikiReaders I'm currently setting up a webshop. I'm still working at it, implementing a multi-seller function. The idea is that everybody can sell printings, CD/DVDs or merchandise stuff on the site. For the sellers the biggest advantage is the central marekt and for the customer cheaper shipping is a big advantage (I neither live in CafePress country nor do I have a credit card).
Sounds neat. The fact that CafePress only accepts US dollars and is only in English is a big drawback. On top of that, they are pretty darn expensive.
Maybe it's a good time to start discussions about an official Wikimedia shop. Comments?
I don't know since that would require us to have storage space, a distribution system, a secure server to handle credit cards, and a staff to fill and send out orders and deal with problems. Unfortunately CafePress has very little competition and what little does exist has many of the same problems CafePress does.
Damn, we're building the biggest encycopedia in the world. We can do such a little shop ourself.
Except a few we could have external sellers in our shop, for me storage is no problem or costs, the 1000 WikiReaders won't take much space anyways. I hope that the devs can setup a secure server, can they? Here in Germany credit cards are quite unpopular, bank transfer is still number one and if I have to print another 1k copies of the WikiReader they might be sent out on bill/account and not on advanced payment.
ciao, tom
--- "Thomas R. Koll" tomk32@gmx.de wrote:
On Fri, May 14, 2004 at 03:08:00AM -0700, Daniel Mayer wrote:
--- "Thomas R. Koll" tomk32@gmx.de wrote:
On Fri, May 14, 2004 at 05:01:00AM +0200, Erik
Moeller wrote:
For the WikiReaders I'm currently setting up a
webshop. I'm still
working at it, implementing a multi-seller
function.
The idea is that everybody can sell printings,
CD/DVDs or
merchandise stuff on the site. For the sellers
the biggest
advantage is the central marekt and for the
customer cheaper
shipping is a big advantage (I neither live in
CafePress country
nor do I have a credit card).
Sounds neat. The fact that CafePress only accepts
US dollars and is only in
English is a big drawback. On top of that, they
are pretty darn expensive.
Maybe it's a good time to start discussions
about an official
Wikimedia shop. Comments?
I don't know since that would require us to have
storage space, a distribution
system, a secure server to handle credit cards,
and a staff to fill and send
out orders and deal with problems. Unfortunately
CafePress has very little
competition and what little does exist has many of
the same problems CafePress
does.
Damn, we're building the biggest encycopedia in the world. We can do such a little shop ourself.
Except a few we could have external sellers in our shop, for me storage is no problem or costs, the 1000 WikiReaders won't take much space anyways. I hope that the devs can setup a secure server, can they? Here in Germany credit cards are quite unpopular, bank transfer is still number one and if I have to print another 1k copies of the WikiReader they might be sent out on bill/account and not on advanced payment.
ciao, tom
Hello Tom
I am not sure I understood everything yet; but to who are these wikireaders gonna be distributed ? Or, through which means ? Several means ? Only through internet ? In schools ? Meetings ? What are you planning ?
Are they gonna be sold ? If they are, how much ? Why sold ? Do you consider they are only instrument of promotion, or knowledge distribution as well ? Were the 3000 dollars definitly given to support WikiReaders, or are they a help to be reinbursed while the WikiReaders are sold ?
Could you update the meta page accordingly. I think that it is important that we keep track of * promotional production * distribution of free knowledge * foundation money use
Both for us internally, perhaps for plannification of annual money use later, and definitly for outsiders who wish to follow foundation activity. If that is a personal move to distribute knowledge, that is interesting as well.
Ant
__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/
Anthere wrote:
Are they gonna be sold ? If they are, how much ? Why sold ? Do you consider they are only instrument of promotion, or knowledge distribution as well ? Were the 3000 dollars definitly given to support WikiReaders, or are they a help to be reinbursed while the WikiReaders are sold ?
If I read Jimbo's announcement about it correctly, the $3000 is basically a loan, intended to finance the initial print run, and Wikimedia will make a certain portion of the profits on each sale to recover the $3000. In case profits are less than $3000, Jimbo's personally guaranteed he'll make up any difference, so it's no risk to the foundation's money (I believe he did this precisely for the reasons you mentioned, that this isn't something we've yet decided the foundation should spend its money on).
-Mark
On Sat, May 15, 2004 at 09:17:38AM -0700, Anthere wrote:
I am not sure I understood everything yet; but to who are these wikireaders gonna be distributed ? Or, through which means ? Several means ? Only through internet ? In schools ? Meetings ? What are you planning ?
The plan is to install a shop and sell them via this shop. de:Benutzer:Harko has found a Berlin printer who does 1500 copies of WikiReader Schweden and he will sell them via this shop too. Depending on how fast they are sold we will also bring some copies to the WOS3 in Berlin too and sell them there.
Are they gonna be sold ? If they are, how much ? Why sold ?
I'm sure that they're gonna be sold, the PDF is quite popular (1300 downloads in April and May) and it spread through a few German blogs (I love them). The WR Internet will be at 4,60 EURO without shipping, the WR Schweden about the same price. 3,30 is production cost, 1,- for me and 7% VAT. I didn't include anything for Wikimedia because I think that most of the copies will go to our authors (btw, almost 600 registered wrote at the 126 articles) and they already donated their time. But I add a <h2>note that the customers shall donate and suggest one Euro, we'll see wether this is successful or not.
The have to be sold to make sure that we can afford further editions, simple as that.
Do you consider they are only instrument of promotion, or knowledge distribution as well ?
Offline promotion is one intention, getting a step nearer to the printed Wikipedia is another. But personally I don't believe that we will ever get a complete printed Wikipedia.
Were the 3000 dollars definitly given to support WikiReaders, or are they a help to be reinbursed while the WikiReaders are sold ?
The money will be reimbursed, Jimbo wrote that he meant it as support for starting the German Verein, but that yet doesn't exists.
ciao, tom
Hi!
On Sun, 16 May 2004 11:39:54 +0200, Thomas R. Koll wrote:
The money will be reimbursed, Jimbo wrote that he meant it as support for starting the German Verein, but that yet doesn't exists.
Errr, yes, it does not yet exist, but as I understood the matter, the money was also meant to help *founding* it. There are costs involved, especially if we have to consult a lawer, and anyway, it definitely looks like it will be founded about the 12th of June in Berlin.
Alex
Erik Moeller wrote:
It has been brought to my attention that Cafepress, which we currently use to sell Wikimedia Merchandise at http://www.cafepress.com/wikipedia, has some privacy issues. Specifically, they have a "web pixel clause":
Pixels. Pixels, also called clear GIFs, are invisible files on Web pages that you visit. If you visit a page on the Site that contains a Pixel, the Pixel communicates with your computer to determine, among other things, whether you have been to that page before or viewed a particular advertisement. We may use Pixels to serve advertising, enhance email advertising and track usage of the Site.
How exactly does this work? The Pixel "communicates with [my] computer", but my computer has been told not to answer communication requests, such as are mediated by Javascript and cookies. How does a GIF do this?
My friends and I have a hypothesis: The Pixel is a 1x1 transparent GIF that is stored on a special server that keeps track of requesting IPs. So this server knows if a given Pixel has been requested by my IP before, thus determining if I'd visited the page on which that Pixel lies as an <IMG>.
If we're right, then this isn't particularly evil. It's inherent in HTTP that servers can see who requests files, and this 1x1 transparent GIF <IMG> file is just an efficient application. Conversely, people seriously interested in guarding their privacy know how to circumvent such tracking.
And a somewhat weak personal data disclosure policy:
we may disclose your Personally Identifiable Information when we believe in good faith that it is required by any applicable law or legal process, or if we believe we need to disclose it to protect or enforce our rights *or the rights of our members, users, or other third parties.*
I don't like this; "the rights of [...] third parties" is so vague that they're not really promising any privacy for my PII at all. Personally, I'm not concerned about the information that I give them, which is no more than I give the clerk at K-Mart when I shop there; still, it's useful to know that they're not promising anything (just like K-Mart doesn't promise anything, so far as I've ever heard).
My point of view, right now, is that if no alternatives exist, we should continue using Cafepress, and add a link to the Wikipedia article about them on the page, where the privacy issues can then discussed from a neutral point of view.
I believe that this is correct. The lack of privacy protection is no reason to stop using Cafe Press, but at the same time, we should always be on the look out for others sales venues. If we find alternatives that /do/ protect shoppers' privacy strongly, then that's a reason to use only those alternatives and not Cafe Press. But in the present market, Cafe Press is essentially unique.
An analogy: The Wikipedia Foundation uses free, open-source software. This is important for Jimbo's founding philosophy of Wikipedia, so that anybody can copy not only the encyclopaedia but the entire site. And of course, we're constantly modifying our software for our purposes. But imagine an evil parallel universe in which Micro$oft controlled all software copyrights with an iron fist, and the free software and open source movements existed only in utopian fantasies. Would we shut down our operations? No, we would make do with what we had. Come the revolution, /then/ we would switch to free, open-source software. This analogy is exaggerated, but the same principles apply.
-- Toby
On Fri, 14 May 2004, Toby Bartels wrote:
then that's a reason to use only those alternatives and not Cafe Press. But in the present market, Cafe Press is essentially unique.
We could do what people like Apache do and make arrangement with specialist "geek" stores like www.jinxhackwear.com and www.cashncarrion.co.uk to sell wikipedia merchandise.
Imran
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org