Hi Rodrigo,
Thank you for these questions. There have been questions about the India program as well, so these questions about Brazil can be added to the list of issues for WMF to investigate.
I am not personally familiar with either of the Brazil or India catalyst programs, but I suggest that you contact Asaf or Anasuya if you don't get a response on this list or on the discussion page within two days.
Thank you again for bringing up these questions.
Pine
Hey Pine,
For me, this is just a small and visible part of the iceberg, sadly. I not will go deeper in that, because I do not have stomach for, patiences, and way to do that.
I already send massages to Asaf pointing this, in respect. But thanks for the tip.
Cheers.
On 22 May 2014 03:52, ENWP Pine deyntestiss@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi Rodrigo,
Thank you for these questions. There have been questions about the India program as well, so these questions about Brazil can be added to the list of issues for WMF to investigate.
I am not personally familiar with either of the Brazil or India catalyst programs, but I suggest that you contact Asaf or Anasuya if you don't get a response on this list or on the discussion page within two days.
Thank you again for bringing up these questions.
Pine
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Rodrigo -- what do the bubbles represent in the chart -- countries?
On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 12:08 AM, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton < rodrigo.argenton@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey Pine,
For me, this is just a small and visible part of the iceberg, sadly. I not will go deeper in that, because I do not have stomach for, patiences, and way to do that.
I already send massages to Asaf pointing this, in respect. But thanks for the tip.
Cheers.
On 22 May 2014 03:52, ENWP Pine deyntestiss@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi Rodrigo,
Thank you for these questions. There have been questions about the India program as well, so these questions about Brazil can be added to the list of issues for WMF to investigate.
I am not personally familiar with either of the Brazil or India catalyst programs, but I suggest that you contact Asaf or Anasuya if you don't get a
response
on this list or on the discussion page within two days.
Thank you again for bringing up these questions.
Pine
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Hello Lila,
I wanted to answer your question regarding the bubbles in the bubble chart as that chart has been pulled from our *Program Evaluation (beta)* reports, this one from the Wiki Loves Monuments report, available at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Evaluation/Library/WLM
The bubble charts are intersecting data along three dimensions, an x- and y- axis as well as a z-axis illustrated by bubble size. That particular chart, "Graph 2: Budget, participation, and photos added," illustrates the number of participants along the horizontal x-axis, budget along the vertical y-axis, and number of images uploaded along the vertical z-axis illustrated by bubble size and numeric label.
The data represent 11 Wiki Loves Monuments implementations in 2012 for which we had all three points of data reported. The reviewed contests had budget inputs ranging from less than $1,000 USD to almost $17,000 USD. The number of participants ranging from 75 to 2,005, and the number of images added ranged from nearly 2,000 to more than 30,000. (The raw data are also available in the original report as appendix tables)
The varying sizes of the bubbles — with larger bubbles representing more images uploaded — show that the number of photos increase significantly when events have over 500 participants. There does not seem to be a direct relationship between budget, participant count, or images uploaded. The bubble size doesn't get larger or smaller — meaning when more money is invested in an Wiki Loves Monuments implementation, that doesn't mean the event will have a higher participant count or a higher upload count.
Hope that helps to clarify the chart. Please let me know if you have further questions!
Best regards,
Jaime
Hi,
To give a little more context: as I indicated on other places as well (and perhaps by other people), competitions across countries are hard to compare because they face very different challenges, and it is even unfair to assume they are the same thing. The goals were not always identical (in some countries a lot of value was added by laying foundations for future projects with the partners or by growing a team of dedicated volunteers where there was none before, in some countries the number of images was the most important factor while in others the long term effects of specific editors was most important - to name a few).
That is not to ridicule the work put into this analysis, I only want to make sure nobody jumps to conclusions here before reading more thoroughly the reports and looking at more data and most importantly: talk with the volunteers who organized the numerous (53 in 2013) competitions.
That being said, I think I could agree wholeheartedly if the conclusion were to be "money is usually not the bottle neck" (although there are exceptions).
Best,
Lodewijk (member of the (international coordinating) team of Wiki Loves Monuments 2010-2013)
2014-05-30 18:54 GMT+02:00 Jaime Anstee janstee@wikimedia.org:
Hello Lila,
I wanted to answer your question regarding the bubbles in the bubble chart as that chart has been pulled from our *Program Evaluation (beta)* reports, this one from the Wiki Loves Monuments report, available at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Evaluation/Library/WLM
The bubble charts are intersecting data along three dimensions, an x- and y- axis as well as a z-axis illustrated by bubble size. That particular chart, "Graph 2: Budget, participation, and photos added," illustrates the number of participants along the horizontal x-axis, budget along the vertical y-axis, and number of images uploaded along the vertical z-axis illustrated by bubble size and numeric label.
The data represent 11 Wiki Loves Monuments implementations in 2012 for which we had all three points of data reported. The reviewed contests had budget inputs ranging from less than $1,000 USD to almost $17,000 USD. The number of participants ranging from 75 to 2,005, and the number of images added ranged from nearly 2,000 to more than 30,000. (The raw data are also available in the original report as appendix tables)
The varying sizes of the bubbles — with larger bubbles representing more images uploaded — show that the number of photos increase significantly when events have over 500 participants. There does not seem to be a direct relationship between budget, participant count, or images uploaded. The bubble size doesn't get larger or smaller — meaning when more money is invested in an Wiki Loves Monuments implementation, that doesn't mean the event will have a higher participant count or a higher upload count.
Hope that helps to clarify the chart. Please let me know if you have further questions!
Best regards,
Jaime
--
Jaime Anstee, Ph.D Program Evaluation Specialist Wikimedia Foundation +1.415.839.6885 ext 6869 www.wikimediafoundation.org
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! *https://donate.wikimedia.org https://donate.wikimedia.org/*
On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Lila Tretikov lila@wikimedia.org wrote:
Rodrigo -- what do the bubbles represent in the chart -- countries?
On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 12:08 AM, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton < rodrigo.argenton@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey Pine,
For me, this is just a small and visible part of the iceberg, sadly. I not will go deeper in that, because I do not have stomach for,
patiences,
and way to do that.
I already send massages to Asaf pointing this, in respect. But thanks
for
the tip.
Cheers.
On 22 May 2014 03:52, ENWP Pine deyntestiss@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi Rodrigo,
Thank you for these questions. There have been questions about the
India
program as well, so these questions about Brazil can be added to the
list
of issues for WMF to investigate.
I am not personally familiar with either of the Brazil or India
catalyst
programs, but I suggest that you contact Asaf or Anasuya if you don't get a
response
on this list or on the discussion page within two days.
Thank you again for bringing up these questions.
Pine
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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Hi,
I have no idea about the prizes for other places to compare, but I must say 10k reais (~5k USD) is a small amount of money for the value generate by this type of competition, in my opinion.
At the moment I am running through the organization I coordinate a challenge which will give prizes of this order, although we won't give it in cash, but a trip to Open Knowledge Festival http://2014.okfestival.org/ next July, books and games, all catalysing the creative use of technology and free software. And this is from a very tiny organization 6 month old.
The results from this competition led by the education program coordinator in Brazil seems good so far. I think one thing that could be improved was to consult the community in a more open way to avoid the actual wikidramas and I tend not to like prizes in cash, but simbolic one, like a trip to Wikimania would make much more sense for me or some prize related to photograph.
I don't criticize the organizers, they are newbies in the Wikimedia movement and let's assume good faith, but I think it's a good opportunity to discuss the issue globally, although the way the topic was raised.
Tom
"way the topic was raised." funny
Thank you Jaime Anstee, Lodewijk for the explanation and context.
I don't if Mr. Alvarenga can see, but "I don't criticize the organizers, they are newbies in the Wikimedia movement", is one of the main problems here, why they can have the power spend this money without consulting, your point increase the size of this issue, if they don't know what they are doing, why they can manage/access this quantity of money? And find for me photo contest in Brazil manage by NGOs without partners that hits this quantity of money, and this is just the prize, the whole contest was evaluated in 30'850,00 reais ~14'000.00 dollars...
On 30 May 2014 15:18, Everton Zanella Alvarenga everton.alvarenga@okfn.org wrote:
Hi,
I have no idea about the prizes for other places to compare, but I must say 10k reais (~5k USD) is a small amount of money for the value generate by this type of competition, in my opinion.
At the moment I am running through the organization I coordinate a challenge which will give prizes of this order, although we won't give it in cash, but a trip to Open Knowledge Festival http://2014.okfestival.org/ next July, books and games, all catalysing the creative use of technology and free software. And this is from a very tiny organization 6 month old.
The results from this competition led by the education program coordinator in Brazil seems good so far. I think one thing that could be improved was to consult the community in a more open way to avoid the actual wikidramas and I tend not to like prizes in cash, but simbolic one, like a trip to Wikimania would make much more sense for me or some prize related to photograph.
I don't criticize the organizers, they are newbies in the Wikimedia movement and let's assume good faith, but I think it's a good opportunity to discuss the issue globally, although the way the topic was raised.
Tom
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Dear Rodrigo,
As you probably realize, the Wiki Loves Earth competition is ongoing already - and it is highly unlikely that things will change /during/ the competition. Raising this right now, in this aggressive way (not going towards a solution) is primarily obstructive.
What would be much more constructive is if you either decide to invest your effort in making this investment worth while (increase the impact), or to help during the evaluation/next time's organization. That way you can actually impact the way money is being spent, and volunteers are being empowered effectively.
Unless I'm missing something (what you're actually trying to accomplish) this is probably the least impactful moment to have this discussion - a few months earlier or later would have been.
Best, Lodewijk
2014-05-31 3:50 GMT+02:00 Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton < rodrigo.argenton@gmail.com>:
"way the topic was raised." funny
Thank you Jaime Anstee, Lodewijk for the explanation and context.
I don't if Mr. Alvarenga can see, but "I don't criticize the organizers, they are newbies in the Wikimedia movement", is one of the main problems here, why they can have the power spend this money without consulting, your point increase the size of this issue, if they don't know what they are doing, why they can manage/access this quantity of money? And find for me photo contest in Brazil manage by NGOs without partners that hits this quantity of money, and this is just the prize, the whole contest was evaluated in 30'850,00 reais ~14'000.00 dollars...
On 30 May 2014 15:18, Everton Zanella Alvarenga < everton.alvarenga@okfn.org> wrote:
Hi,
I have no idea about the prizes for other places to compare, but I must say 10k reais (~5k USD) is a small amount of money for the value generate by this type of competition, in my opinion.
At the moment I am running through the organization I coordinate a challenge which will give prizes of this order, although we won't give it in cash, but a trip to Open Knowledge Festival http://2014.okfestival.org/ next July, books and games, all catalysing the creative use of technology and free software. And this is from a very tiny organization 6 month old.
The results from this competition led by the education program coordinator in Brazil seems good so far. I think one thing that could be improved was to consult the community in a more open way to avoid the actual wikidramas and I tend not to like prizes in cash, but simbolic one, like a trip to Wikimania would make much more sense for me or some prize related to photograph.
I don't criticize the organizers, they are newbies in the Wikimedia movement and let's assume good faith, but I think it's a good opportunity to discuss the issue globally, although the way the topic was raised.
Tom
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Well Lodewijk, they announce the values during the WLE, not before to discuss (I wrote that in Meta), and more, they are trying to do a event after the WLE that will cost ~9000 USD. And they promised to do a WLM too, how much money they will spend on that too. Furthermore, I tried to do in the soft way, asking they in the page of the event, they blocked my for no reason, the reason given was "you are not welcome"...
Remember, this is not a Wikimedia Chapter, this is the Brazil Program (WMF project) the are doing this event, without accountability, discussion with any community, transparency...
We could not do that before because they did had not opened how much they would spend, and we can't wait moths to do, because we are not that far from WLM, and always have some guys saying "this already go, doesn't matter"...
If we do not care, who will care?
On 31 May 2014 06:37, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
Dear Rodrigo,
As you probably realize, the Wiki Loves Earth competition is ongoing already - and it is highly unlikely that things will change /during/ the competition. Raising this right now, in this aggressive way (not going towards a solution) is primarily obstructive.
What would be much more constructive is if you either decide to invest your effort in making this investment worth while (increase the impact), or to help during the evaluation/next time's organization. That way you can actually impact the way money is being spent, and volunteers are being empowered effectively.
Unless I'm missing something (what you're actually trying to accomplish) this is probably the least impactful moment to have this discussion - a few months earlier or later would have been.
Best, Lodewijk
2014-05-31 3:50 GMT+02:00 Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton < rodrigo.argenton@gmail.com>:
"way the topic was raised." funny
Thank you Jaime Anstee, Lodewijk for the explanation and context.
I don't if Mr. Alvarenga can see, but "I don't criticize the organizers, they are newbies in the Wikimedia movement", is one of the main problems here, why they can have the power spend this money without consulting,
your
point increase the size of this issue, if they don't know what they are doing, why they can manage/access this quantity of money? And find for me photo contest in Brazil manage by NGOs without partners that hits this quantity of money, and this is just the prize, the whole contest was evaluated in 30'850,00 reais ~14'000.00 dollars...
On 30 May 2014 15:18, Everton Zanella Alvarenga < everton.alvarenga@okfn.org> wrote:
Hi,
I have no idea about the prizes for other places to compare, but I must say 10k reais (~5k USD) is a small amount of money for the value generate by this type of competition, in my opinion.
At the moment I am running through the organization I coordinate a challenge which will give prizes of this order, although we won't give it in cash, but a trip to Open Knowledge Festival http://2014.okfestival.org/ next July, books and games, all catalysing the creative use of technology and free software. And this is from a very tiny organization 6 month old.
The results from this competition led by the education program coordinator in Brazil seems good so far. I think one thing that could be improved was to consult the community in a more open way to avoid the actual wikidramas and I tend not to like prizes in cash, but simbolic one, like a trip to Wikimania would make much more sense for me or some prize related to photograph.
I don't criticize the organizers, they are newbies in the Wikimedia movement and let's assume good faith, but I think it's a good opportunity to discuss the issue globally, although the way the topic was raised.
Tom
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Hi Rodrigo,
asking questions about a WLM competition would be the right time now indeed. But then you should phrase your questions that way: are they still planning to organize a WLM, how can you help them and what are they planning budget/prize wise. You could also suggest to plan an evaluation moment between those two, to evaluate for example the prizes.
Whether it is a chapter, WMF project or something else shouldn't matter (if it does, it usually is a sign something goes wrong).
I'm just saying that complaining about the WLE competition right now is unhelpful - nothing is going to change anyway because the competition is already underway. In that case, it is more effective to wait until it is finished so that you can evaluate, and learn from it. You could focus right now on formulating questions to ask during evaluation. If you share those in advance, people can already think a bit about them.
This is not a matter of caring or not caring - this is a matter of being effective and efficient.
Best, Lodewijk
2014-06-01 2:06 GMT+02:00 Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton < rodrigo.argenton@gmail.com>:
Well Lodewijk, they announce the values during the WLE, not before to discuss (I wrote that in Meta), and more, they are trying to do a event after the WLE that will cost ~9000 USD. And they promised to do a WLM too, how much money they will spend on that too. Furthermore, I tried to do in the soft way, asking they in the page of the event, they blocked my for no reason, the reason given was "you are not welcome"...
Remember, this is not a Wikimedia Chapter, this is the Brazil Program (WMF project) the are doing this event, without accountability, discussion with any community, transparency...
We could not do that before because they did had not opened how much they would spend, and we can't wait moths to do, because we are not that far from WLM, and always have some guys saying "this already go, doesn't matter"...
If we do not care, who will care?
On 31 May 2014 06:37, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
Dear Rodrigo,
As you probably realize, the Wiki Loves Earth competition is ongoing already - and it is highly unlikely that things will change /during/ the competition. Raising this right now, in this aggressive way (not going towards a solution) is primarily obstructive.
What would be much more constructive is if you either decide to invest
your
effort in making this investment worth while (increase the impact), or to help during the evaluation/next time's organization. That way you can actually impact the way money is being spent, and volunteers are being empowered effectively.
Unless I'm missing something (what you're actually trying to accomplish) this is probably the least impactful moment to have this discussion - a
few
months earlier or later would have been.
Best, Lodewijk
2014-05-31 3:50 GMT+02:00 Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton < rodrigo.argenton@gmail.com>:
"way the topic was raised." funny
Thank you Jaime Anstee, Lodewijk for the explanation and context.
I don't if Mr. Alvarenga can see, but "I don't criticize the
organizers,
they are newbies in the Wikimedia movement", is one of the main
problems
here, why they can have the power spend this money without consulting,
your
point increase the size of this issue, if they don't know what they are doing, why they can manage/access this quantity of money? And find for me photo contest in Brazil manage by NGOs without partners that hits this quantity of money, and this is just the prize, the whole contest was evaluated in 30'850,00 reais ~14'000.00 dollars...
On 30 May 2014 15:18, Everton Zanella Alvarenga < everton.alvarenga@okfn.org> wrote:
Hi,
I have no idea about the prizes for other places to compare, but I must say 10k reais (~5k USD) is a small amount of money for the value generate by this type of competition, in my opinion.
At the moment I am running through the organization I coordinate a challenge which will give prizes of this order, although we won't
give
it in cash, but a trip to Open Knowledge Festival http://2014.okfestival.org/ next July, books and games, all catalysing the creative use of technology and free software. And this is from a very tiny organization 6 month old.
The results from this competition led by the education program coordinator in Brazil seems good so far. I think one thing that could be improved was to consult the community in a more open way to avoid the actual wikidramas and I tend not to like prizes in cash, but simbolic one, like a trip to Wikimania would make much more sense for me or some prize related to photograph.
I don't criticize the organizers, they are newbies in the Wikimedia movement and let's assume good faith, but I think it's a good opportunity to discuss the issue globally, although the way the topic was raised.
Tom
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"how can you help" yeah, you didn't get. -> "you are not welcome"... I can't do this kind of things, you can (I think).
Something is going wrong, the community is losing space for a programme imposed by the WMF to Brazil. And this is not just me that are saying that, i.e.: https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_comment%2FBad_usag...
And this is a request for a comment, not a "stop the machines", is a "what do you think about this spends?", "it's ok they use the donation money in this way?", because I have a bias on this, I'm the guy how look this idea in 2011 and predicted the community losing space to the Programme, and this crazy no optimized uses of money, maybe the answer is "it's ok", "yeah, Brazilians volunteers are not capable do to this type of activities, let the professionals do" (I already received this one)...
Just one think, why are you concerning about the efficiency of my questions, but not if the spendings? "3 times more money, plus 100 times more people, why we can't expect at least 10 times more?"
Obs: I get you, and I really think that you are right, but this is not for all situations; and this one, that staffs are making funny of volunteers, using money without not even concerning about the communities thoughts, without any data about this money, and using a fake flag saying that this a community activity... this a think to stop for a moment and say "well, this is ok?"
Xoxo
On 31 May 2014 21:14, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
Hi Rodrigo,
asking questions about a WLM competition would be the right time now indeed. But then you should phrase your questions that way: are they still planning to organize a WLM, how can you help them and what are they planning budget/prize wise. You could also suggest to plan an evaluation moment between those two, to evaluate for example the prizes.
Whether it is a chapter, WMF project or something else shouldn't matter (if it does, it usually is a sign something goes wrong).
I'm just saying that complaining about the WLE competition right now is unhelpful - nothing is going to change anyway because the competition is already underway. In that case, it is more effective to wait until it is finished so that you can evaluate, and learn from it. You could focus right now on formulating questions to ask during evaluation. If you share those in advance, people can already think a bit about them.
This is not a matter of caring or not caring - this is a matter of being effective and efficient.
Best, Lodewijk
2014-06-01 2:06 GMT+02:00 Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton < rodrigo.argenton@gmail.com>:
Well Lodewijk, they announce the values during the WLE, not before to discuss (I wrote that in Meta), and more, they are trying to do a event after the WLE that will cost ~9000 USD. And they promised to do a WLM too, how much money they will spend on that too. Furthermore, I tried to do in the soft way, asking they in the page
of
the event, they blocked my for no reason, the reason given was "you are
not
welcome"...
Remember, this is not a Wikimedia Chapter, this is the Brazil Program
(WMF
project) the are doing this event, without accountability, discussion
with
any community, transparency...
We could not do that before because they did had not opened how much they would spend, and we can't wait moths to do, because we are not that far from WLM, and always have some guys saying "this already go, doesn't matter"...
If we do not care, who will care?
On 31 May 2014 06:37, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
Dear Rodrigo,
As you probably realize, the Wiki Loves Earth competition is ongoing already - and it is highly unlikely that things will change /during/
the
competition. Raising this right now, in this aggressive way (not going towards a solution) is primarily obstructive.
What would be much more constructive is if you either decide to invest
your
effort in making this investment worth while (increase the impact), or
to
help during the evaluation/next time's organization. That way you can actually impact the way money is being spent, and volunteers are being empowered effectively.
Unless I'm missing something (what you're actually trying to
accomplish)
this is probably the least impactful moment to have this discussion - a
few
months earlier or later would have been.
Best, Lodewijk
2014-05-31 3:50 GMT+02:00 Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton < rodrigo.argenton@gmail.com>:
"way the topic was raised." funny
Thank you Jaime Anstee, Lodewijk for the explanation and context.
I don't if Mr. Alvarenga can see, but "I don't criticize the
organizers,
they are newbies in the Wikimedia movement", is one of the main
problems
here, why they can have the power spend this money without
consulting,
your
point increase the size of this issue, if they don't know what they
are
doing, why they can manage/access this quantity of money? And find for me photo contest in Brazil manage by NGOs without
partners
that hits this quantity of money, and this is just the prize, the
whole
contest was evaluated in 30'850,00 reais ~14'000.00 dollars...
On 30 May 2014 15:18, Everton Zanella Alvarenga < everton.alvarenga@okfn.org> wrote:
Hi,
I have no idea about the prizes for other places to compare, but I must say 10k reais (~5k USD) is a small amount of money for the
value
generate by this type of competition, in my opinion.
At the moment I am running through the organization I coordinate a challenge which will give prizes of this order, although we won't
give
it in cash, but a trip to Open Knowledge Festival http://2014.okfestival.org/ next July, books and games, all catalysing the creative use of technology and free software. And
this
is from a very tiny organization 6 month old.
The results from this competition led by the education program coordinator in Brazil seems good so far. I think one thing that
could
be improved was to consult the community in a more open way to
avoid
the actual wikidramas and I tend not to like prizes in cash, but simbolic one, like a trip to Wikimania would make much more sense
for
me or some prize related to photograph.
I don't criticize the organizers, they are newbies in the Wikimedia movement and let's assume good faith, but I think it's a good opportunity to discuss the issue globally, although the way the
topic
was raised.
Tom
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