In a message dated 1/20/2011 11:37:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, dgerard@gmail.com writes:
There's a lot of knowledge in fields which everyone assumes, and which are transmitted academically, but not in a format that teenage en:wp admins can grasp in five seconds.
Knowledge transmitted academically, but not actually ever published? For example?
Knowledge in olden times of India are transferred orally from Gurus ( Teachers) to students/disciples . They are not necessarily recorded. We are talking about the ages even before manuscripts & paper are invented.
Regards Tinu Cherian
On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 2:53 AM, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 1/20/2011 11:37:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, dgerard@gmail.com writes:
There's a lot of knowledge in fields which everyone assumes, and which are transmitted academically, but not in a format that teenage en:wp admins can grasp in five seconds.
Knowledge transmitted academically, but not actually ever published? For example? _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On 21 January 2011 05:59, CherianTinu Abraham tinucherian@gmail.com wrote:
Knowledge in olden times of India are transferred orally from Gurus ( Teachers) to students/disciples . They are not necessarily recorded. We are talking about the ages even before manuscripts & paper are invented.
Paper has been around for 1800 years. The odds of orally transmitted information remaining accurate over that kind of time period are limited.
In any case the who Guru thing has taken a bit of a hammering lately from the likes of Sanal Edamaruku and Basava Premanand.
Come on friend, History of India and many other civilizations of world started thousands of years even before that. As somebody already said earlier, It is not something that everyone can easily comprehend.. Every knowledge is NOT on the internet and Google searchable :)
Sorry, No pun intended.
Regards Tinu Cherian
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 6:59 AM, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 21 January 2011 05:59, CherianTinu Abraham tinucherian@gmail.com wrote:
Knowledge in olden times of India are transferred orally from Gurus ( Teachers) to students/disciples . They are not necessarily recorded. We
are
talking about the ages even before manuscripts & paper are invented.
Paper has been around for 1800 years. The odds of orally transmitted information remaining accurate over that kind of time period are limited.
In any case the who Guru thing has taken a bit of a hammering lately from the likes of Sanal Edamaruku and Basava Premanand.
-- geni
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You are mistaking the problem. It's not that a piece of knowledge is not googleable. It's that a piece of knowledge is not published whatsoever.
Never published. Anywhere. At any time. Ever. That's quite a different animal.
-----Original Message----- From: CherianTinu Abraham tinucherian@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 8:17 pm Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Questions about new Fellow
Come on friend, History of India and many other civilizations of world
started thousands of years even before that. As somebody already said
earlier, It is not something that everyone can easily comprehend..
Every knowledge is NOT on the internet and Google searchable :)
Sorry, No pun intended.
Regards
Tinu Cherian
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 6:59 AM, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 21 January 2011 05:59, CherianTinu Abraham tinucherian@gmail.com
wrote:
Knowledge in olden times of India are transferred orally from Gurus (
Teachers) to students/disciples . They are not necessarily recorded. We
are
talking about the ages even before manuscripts & paper are invented.
Paper has been around for 1800 years. The odds of orally transmitted
information remaining accurate over that kind of time period are
limited.
In any case the who Guru thing has taken a bit of a hammering lately
from the likes of Sanal Edamaruku and Basava Premanand.
--
geni
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:21 PM, Wjhonson wjhonson@aol.com wrote:
You are mistaking the problem. It's not that a piece of knowledge is not googleable. It's that a piece of knowledge is not published whatsoever.
Never published. Anywhere. At any time. Ever. That's quite a different animal.
All disapproval of the Fellowship process appointment in this case, I fully understand D. Gerard's (IMO, misworded) point and what Wjohnson's point is as well. If we intend for the WMF to actually spread free knowledge, these sort of documentaries are important. David's point would ring true with me about the "teen en.wp" admins (to paraphrase) if I assumed that they knew of the efforts since the fall of the Soviet Union to document Bulgarian folk songs and stories. I own a few field recordings and have followed the "west's" interest in this cultural documentation. I would expect a great proportion of this mailing list to know of these studies, because this isn't run of the mill editing that is discussed here.
The point is that financing a grant to document oral history is important. Ask American musicologists what we would do without Alan Lomax's recordings and the work of the Smithsonian in the 1920's and 1930's recording folk, jazz, and blues. Don't knock it until you try it.
Hi all, As an active wikimedian from India, I am just sharing my personal take on the whole thing
1) Achal as Fellow : Some of the folks commented that it was inappropriate for Achal Prabhala selected for this position, also being a member of the Foundation Advisory Board. I think it is the designation as fellow that is misleading in the first place...and unlike the Board of Trustees, AFAIK, Advisory Board has no real powers but is yet another formal group of volunteers. We already have a lot of Foundation employees who are former volunteers and who got recruited to staff by becoming known for their volunteer work. I was wondering why there was no hue & cry earlier ? If somebody is doing good work within the scope of objectives of the Foundation, let us appreciate that. Think of the transparency of the whole stuff that whatever he is planning to do is well announced and even has an open grants page which is out there for public viewing.
2) Achal & India : Achal was always a guiding force in the Wikimedia movement in India, not necessarily as an Adv Board member. He was always supportive and encouraging our various individual volunteer efforts in India. His efforts and support behind the Wikimedia India chapter is self explanatory in one of the mails that I had forwarded to the foundation list earlier. MZMcBride laments "*Achal has a growing influence on Wikimedia, particularly its new operations in India*" . With no disrespect to MZMcBride, may I ask, "*So what ?*". If somebody is doing some good work, let them get due credit for this. What next ? Jimmy Wales has a growing influence on Wikipedia and Wikimedia ? I would ask Achal to take this a compliment :) Btw having known Achal personally for some time now, he is a not a person who goes around and professes the good work he is doing and I believe, that is the reason why he is not recognized for what he does.
3) Importance of documenting oral citations: Keegan & some others have already done that earlier. Let me dare not to say that again and again. And let us not jump into conclusions on things we don't really know and understand.
Personal mudslinging is something that is uncalled for in a public list like this. If there is a problem or gap in the process of grant request and approval, in general, let us discuss that which is more productive.
Regards Tinu Cherian
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 2:26 PM, Keegan Peterzell keegan.wiki@gmail.comwrote:
On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:21 PM, Wjhonson wjhonson@aol.com wrote:
You are mistaking the problem. It's not that a piece of knowledge is not googleable. It's that a piece of knowledge is not published whatsoever.
Never published. Anywhere. At any time. Ever. That's quite a different animal.
All disapproval of the Fellowship process appointment in this case, I fully understand D. Gerard's (IMO, misworded) point and what Wjohnson's point is as well. If we intend for the WMF to actually spread free knowledge, these sort of documentaries are important. David's point would ring true with me about the "teen en.wp" admins (to paraphrase) if I assumed that they knew of the efforts since the fall of the Soviet Union to document Bulgarian folk songs and stories. I own a few field recordings and have followed the "west's" interest in this cultural documentation. I would expect a great proportion of this mailing list to know of these studies, because this isn't run of the mill editing that is discussed here.
The point is that financing a grant to document oral history is important. Ask American musicologists what we would do without Alan Lomax's recordings and the work of the Smithsonian in the 1920's and 1930's recording folk, jazz, and blues. Don't knock it until you try it.
-- ~Keegan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 4:10 PM, CherianTinu Abraham tinucherian@gmail.comwrote:
Hi all, As an active wikimedian from India, I am just sharing my personal take on the whole thing
Firstly, my apologize for my late response to this thread, due to my other pre-occupations. I needed to catch up with the thread before I responded.
As a manner of introductions I am one of the members of the current Executive committee of the Wikimedia India chapter. I have also been active in organizing the regular monthly meetups for Wikipedians in Bangalore and the recent W10 event.
As a member of the team that worked to get the chapter formally registered, for nearly two years (this has been attempted a few times earlier unsuccessfully), I have no hesitation in saying that Achal has played a key role in assisting and supporting the team in getting the chapter formation going.
I was going through my email archives and I ran into the email he sent some of us on 31-Mar-09 proposing the first meetup of the team. Please note we are now formally a chapter as per the local laws from 02-Jan-2011. Achal has been supportive and helpful through this journey and provided necessary advise when sought. Thank you Achal.
There have been other comments on the clarity of roles and their tenure. As a member of the community I do believe that there is opportunity for the foundation to define some these more clearly to avoid misunderstandings of this nature in the future. Having attended the chapter's meeting in Berlin last year I am aware of the Movement roles initiative to bring further clarity regarding various stakeholders and roles.
As far as the specific project for which the grant was offered, I do believe the project would be of help and value, as would many other that need to be done to catalyze the growth of wikipedia in the numerous Indian languages.
Best regards Arun
- Achal as Fellow : Some of the folks commented that it was inappropriate
for Achal Prabhala selected for this position, also being a member of the Foundation Advisory Board. I think it is the designation as fellow that is misleading in the first place...and unlike the Board of Trustees, AFAIK, Advisory Board has no real powers but is yet another formal group of volunteers. We already have a lot of Foundation employees who are former volunteers and who got recruited to staff by becoming known for their volunteer work. I was wondering why there was no hue & cry earlier ? If somebody is doing good work within the scope of objectives of the Foundation, let us appreciate that. Think of the transparency of the whole stuff that whatever he is planning to do is well announced and even has an open grants page which is out there for public viewing.
- Achal & India : Achal was always a guiding force in the Wikimedia
movement in India, not necessarily as an Adv Board member. He was always supportive and encouraging our various individual volunteer efforts in India. His efforts and support behind the Wikimedia India chapter is self explanatory in one of the mails that I had forwarded to the foundation list earlier. MZMcBride laments "*Achal has a growing influence on Wikimedia, particularly its new operations in India*" . With no disrespect to MZMcBride, may I ask, "*So what ?*". If somebody is doing some good work, let them get due credit for this. What next ? Jimmy Wales has a growing influence on Wikipedia and Wikimedia ? I would ask Achal to take this a compliment :) Btw having known Achal personally for some time now, he is a not a person who goes around and professes the good work he is doing and I believe, that is the reason why he is not recognized for what he does.
- Importance of documenting oral citations: Keegan & some others have
already done that earlier. Let me dare not to say that again and again. And let us not jump into conclusions on things we don't really know and understand.
Personal mudslinging is something that is uncalled for in a public list like this. If there is a problem or gap in the process of grant request and approval, in general, let us discuss that which is more productive.
Regards Tinu Cherian
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 2:26 PM, Keegan Peterzell <keegan.wiki@gmail.com
wrote:
On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:21 PM, Wjhonson wjhonson@aol.com wrote:
You are mistaking the problem. It's not that a piece of knowledge is not googleable. It's that a piece of knowledge is not published whatsoever.
Never published. Anywhere. At any time. Ever. That's quite a different animal.
All disapproval of the Fellowship process appointment in this case, I
fully
understand D. Gerard's (IMO, misworded) point and what Wjohnson's point
is
as well. If we intend for the WMF to actually spread free knowledge,
these
sort of documentaries are important. David's point would ring true with
me
about the "teen en.wp" admins (to paraphrase) if I assumed that they knew of the efforts since the fall of the Soviet Union to document Bulgarian folk songs and stories. I own a few field recordings and have followed the "west's" interest in this cultural documentation. I would expect a great proportion of this mailing list to know of these studies, because this isn't run of the mill editing that is discussed here.
The point is that financing a grant to document oral history is
important.
Ask American musicologists what we would do without Alan Lomax's recordings and the work of the Smithsonian in the 1920's and 1930's recording folk, jazz, and blues. Don't knock it until you try it.
-- ~Keegan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On 22 January 2011 04:17, CherianTinu Abraham tinucherian@gmail.com wrote:
Come on friend, History of India and many other civilizations of world started thousands of years even before that. As somebody already said earlier, It is not something that everyone can easily comprehend.. Every knowledge is NOT on the internet and Google searchable :)
Sorry, No pun intended.
Regards Tinu Cherian
There are various carvings that date further back and of course archaeological work. However this is the kind of thing that gets recorded in academic records. Given the rate at which oral information appears to break down (remember the [[Great Hedge of India]] seems to have slipped most people's minds) it's questionable how much gurus (even if we ignore the more blatant frauds) would actually know about the history of India pre East India Company that isn't already in writen records.
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