I think the discussion about post-mortems is vitally important, so I'm adding a new subject line for the discussion about the venue. I was one of the people involved in the discussion of post-mortems, and I'll add my comments to the original thread (and summarize what others have said) in a moment. -Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 4:26 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
I can agree with what you're saying, Craig. I can also understand what Brandon is saying - that some people prefer that interface.
Unlike many Facebook pages, though, this one is not public and cannot be viewed by anyone who does not have a FB account. It's the one venue that many interested parties cannot even read, let alone participate in, unless they're willing to give up some fairly significant privacy. I am disappointed, but I do not hold it against anyone for preferring to discuss issues in a venue not associated with Wikimedia.
Risker/Anne
On 21 February 2016 at 19:01, Craig Franklin cfranklin@halonetwork.net wrote:
People will have discussions at a location that is personally convenient for them. Unless you're going to reprogram human nature, I don't see
that
there's anything to be done about the resulting balkanisation of the discussion.
Cheers, Craig
On 22 February 2016 at 09:54, Thyge ltl.privat@gmail.com wrote:
I really wonder why wikimedia discussions have migrated to FB. Are we applying for a grant?
Thyge
2016-02-22 0:51 GMT+01:00 Newyorkbrad newyorkbrad@gmail.com:
I too am one of those people who is not to be found on Facebook. I only have room in my life for one online timesink ... and I already have Wikipedia :)
Newyorkbrad
On 2/21/16, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
As has already been explained on this list, many people do not have
access
to Facebook. If this is something germane and useful to a lot of
people
on
this list, perhaps it would be appropriate to ask Jonathan to post
it
here.
Risker/Anne
On 21 February 2016 at 18:34, Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com
wrote:
For those not following, I recommend the discussion in response to Jonathan Cardy's comment here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/960989863948845/
Anthony Cole _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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For my part I can say that I've moved some discussions to Facebook, because there the communication flow is faster. In a group chat there are no edit conflicts and, since Wikipedians tend to write fast, the conversation goes almost with the speed of talking.
Another usage of Facebook is for communication in a hidden group. We use a hidden group for discussing our social media posts and blog posts which we do not want to discuss publicly, in order to not spoil the surprise in them.
For some documents like grant proposals or reports I, among others, have tended to use Google Docs as a platform for the creation of a draft of a certain document, which was then discussed by a core team before it went public on meta or elsewhere.
So, the two reasons for moving discussions out of the wikiverse are *faster communication* and the *possibility to discuss stuff in a private environment*. I would be really glad if there were a good chat function in the wikiverse or if we started using namespaces, which are already part of MediaWiki, but are not being used as a place for private discussions, at least in my environment.
Best regards, Nikola (User:Лорд Бъмбъри) Wikimedians of Bulgaria
On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 1:35 AM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
I think the discussion about post-mortems is vitally important, so I'm adding a new subject line for the discussion about the venue. I was one of the people involved in the discussion of post-mortems, and I'll add my comments to the original thread (and summarize what others have said) in a moment. -Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 4:26 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
I can agree with what you're saying, Craig. I can also understand what Brandon is saying - that some people prefer that interface.
Unlike many Facebook pages, though, this one is not public and cannot be viewed by anyone who does not have a FB account. It's the one venue that many interested parties cannot even read, let alone participate in,
unless
they're willing to give up some fairly significant privacy. I am disappointed, but I do not hold it against anyone for preferring to
discuss
issues in a venue not associated with Wikimedia.
Risker/Anne
On 21 February 2016 at 19:01, Craig Franklin cfranklin@halonetwork.net wrote:
People will have discussions at a location that is personally
convenient
for them. Unless you're going to reprogram human nature, I don't see
that
there's anything to be done about the resulting balkanisation of the discussion.
Cheers, Craig
On 22 February 2016 at 09:54, Thyge ltl.privat@gmail.com wrote:
I really wonder why wikimedia discussions have migrated to FB. Are we applying for a grant?
Thyge
2016-02-22 0:51 GMT+01:00 Newyorkbrad newyorkbrad@gmail.com:
I too am one of those people who is not to be found on Facebook. I only have room in my life for one online timesink ... and I already have Wikipedia :)
Newyorkbrad
On 2/21/16, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
As has already been explained on this list, many people do not
have
access
to Facebook. If this is something germane and useful to a lot of
people
on
this list, perhaps it would be appropriate to ask Jonathan to
post
it
here.
Risker/Anne
On 21 February 2016 at 18:34, Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com
wrote:
> For those not following, I recommend the discussion in response
to
> Jonathan > Cardy's comment here: > >
https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/960989863948845/
> > Anthony Cole > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe:
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For instant messaging (faster communication) there's IRC if a group discussion that's meant to be open for anyone is considered. Of course, IRC is a bit archaic, but it doesn't force one to agree to Facebook's TOS.
IRC is still quite popular in the wikimedia and free software universe.
Of course, if the only people you want to talk to are already on Facebook, it's one thing. But if you wants to create a discussion that anyone could join, Facebook is not an ideal choice.
Best, Yury Bulka board member Wikimedia Ukraine
Nikola Kalchev nikola.kalchev@gmail.com writes:
For my part I can say that I've moved some discussions to Facebook, because there the communication flow is faster. In a group chat there are no edit conflicts and, since Wikipedians tend to write fast, the conversation goes almost with the speed of talking.
Another usage of Facebook is for communication in a hidden group. We use a hidden group for discussing our social media posts and blog posts which we do not want to discuss publicly, in order to not spoil the surprise in them.
For some documents like grant proposals or reports I, among others, have tended to use Google Docs as a platform for the creation of a draft of a certain document, which was then discussed by a core team before it went public on meta or elsewhere.
So, the two reasons for moving discussions out of the wikiverse are *faster communication* and the *possibility to discuss stuff in a private environment*. I would be really glad if there were a good chat function in the wikiverse or if we started using namespaces, which are already part of MediaWiki, but are not being used as a place for private discussions, at least in my environment.
Best regards, Nikola (User:Лорд Бъмбъри) Wikimedians of Bulgaria
On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 1:35 AM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
I think the discussion about post-mortems is vitally important, so I'm adding a new subject line for the discussion about the venue. I was one of the people involved in the discussion of post-mortems, and I'll add my comments to the original thread (and summarize what others have said) in a moment. -Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 4:26 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
I can agree with what you're saying, Craig. I can also understand what Brandon is saying - that some people prefer that interface.
Unlike many Facebook pages, though, this one is not public and cannot be viewed by anyone who does not have a FB account. It's the one venue that many interested parties cannot even read, let alone participate in,
unless
they're willing to give up some fairly significant privacy. I am disappointed, but I do not hold it against anyone for preferring to
discuss
issues in a venue not associated with Wikimedia.
Risker/Anne
On 21 February 2016 at 19:01, Craig Franklin cfranklin@halonetwork.net wrote:
People will have discussions at a location that is personally
convenient
for them. Unless you're going to reprogram human nature, I don't see
that
there's anything to be done about the resulting balkanisation of the discussion.
Cheers, Craig
On 22 February 2016 at 09:54, Thyge ltl.privat@gmail.com wrote:
I really wonder why wikimedia discussions have migrated to FB. Are we applying for a grant?
Thyge
2016-02-22 0:51 GMT+01:00 Newyorkbrad newyorkbrad@gmail.com:
I too am one of those people who is not to be found on Facebook. I only have room in my life for one online timesink ... and I already have Wikipedia :)
Newyorkbrad
On 2/21/16, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote: > As has already been explained on this list, many people do not
have
access > to Facebook. If this is something germane and useful to a lot of
people
on > this list, perhaps it would be appropriate to ask Jonathan to
post
it
here. > > Risker/Anne > > On 21 February 2016 at 18:34, Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com
wrote:
> >> For those not following, I recommend the discussion in response
to
>> Jonathan >> Cardy's comment here: >> >>
https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/960989863948845/
>> >> Anthony Cole >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe:
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Facebook has many disadvantages as a communication tool. The only reason to use it just because more and more people adapt to it.
The main disadvantage is the lack of good archiving - it is pretty hard to find something on fb after say - half a year. The other issue is the distraction which facebook is causing. You first enter fb just to join a given discussion but then you are flooded by many adds, communications from other parts of fb, pokes from your friends (that someone has birthday or change the job or want to invite you to evening concerto etc..) and finally you usually spend 3-4 time more on fb than you wanted. And - for example - due to this - have no more time to edit Wikipedia :-( Some people are more resitant to distraction some less - but fb affects everyone who go there and eat your time, which is the most precious asset of our volunteers.
2016-02-23 11:21 GMT+01:00 Yury Bulka setthemfree@privacyrequired.com:
For instant messaging (faster communication) there's IRC if a group discussion that's meant to be open for anyone is considered. Of course, IRC is a bit archaic, but it doesn't force one to agree to Facebook's TOS.
IRC is still quite popular in the wikimedia and free software universe.
Of course, if the only people you want to talk to are already on Facebook, it's one thing. But if you wants to create a discussion that anyone could join, Facebook is not an ideal choice.
Best, Yury Bulka board member Wikimedia Ukraine
Nikola Kalchev nikola.kalchev@gmail.com writes:
For my part I can say that I've moved some discussions to Facebook,
because
there the communication flow is faster. In a group chat there are no edit conflicts and, since Wikipedians tend to write fast, the conversation
goes
almost with the speed of talking.
Another usage of Facebook is for communication in a hidden group. We use
a
hidden group for discussing our social media posts and blog posts which
we
do not want to discuss publicly, in order to not spoil the surprise in them.
For some documents like grant proposals or reports I, among others, have tended to use Google Docs as a platform for the creation of a draft of a certain document, which was then discussed by a core team before it went public on meta or elsewhere.
So, the two reasons for moving discussions out of the wikiverse are
*faster
communication* and the *possibility to discuss stuff in a private environment*. I would be really glad if there were a good chat function
in
the wikiverse or if we started using namespaces, which are already part
of
MediaWiki, but are not being used as a place for private discussions, at least in my environment.
Best regards, Nikola (User:Лорд Бъмбъри) Wikimedians of Bulgaria
On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 1:35 AM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com
wrote:
I think the discussion about post-mortems is vitally important, so I'm adding a new subject line for the discussion about the venue. I was one
of
the people involved in the discussion of post-mortems, and I'll add my comments to the original thread (and summarize what others have said)
in a
moment. -Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 4:26 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
I can agree with what you're saying, Craig. I can also understand
what
Brandon is saying - that some people prefer that interface.
Unlike many Facebook pages, though, this one is not public and cannot
be
viewed by anyone who does not have a FB account. It's the one venue
that
many interested parties cannot even read, let alone participate in,
unless
they're willing to give up some fairly significant privacy. I am disappointed, but I do not hold it against anyone for preferring to
discuss
issues in a venue not associated with Wikimedia.
Risker/Anne
On 21 February 2016 at 19:01, Craig Franklin <
cfranklin@halonetwork.net>
wrote:
People will have discussions at a location that is personally
convenient
for them. Unless you're going to reprogram human nature, I don't
see
that
there's anything to be done about the resulting balkanisation of the discussion.
Cheers, Craig
On 22 February 2016 at 09:54, Thyge ltl.privat@gmail.com wrote:
I really wonder why wikimedia discussions have migrated to FB.
Are we
applying for a grant?
Thyge
2016-02-22 0:51 GMT+01:00 Newyorkbrad newyorkbrad@gmail.com:
> I too am one of those people who is not to be found on
Facebook. I
> only have room in my life for one online timesink ... and I
already
> have Wikipedia :) > > Newyorkbrad > > On 2/21/16, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote: > > As has already been explained on this list, many people do not
have
> access > > to Facebook. If this is something germane and useful to a
lot of
people > on > > this list, perhaps it would be appropriate to ask Jonathan to
post
it
> here. > > > > Risker/Anne > > > > On 21 February 2016 at 18:34, Anthony Cole <
ahcoleecu@gmail.com>
wrote: > > > >> For those not following, I recommend the discussion in
response
to
> >> Jonathan > >> Cardy's comment here: > >> > >> >
https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/960989863948845/
> >> > >> Anthony Cole > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
, > >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
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On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 5:52 AM, Tomasz Ganicz polimerek@gmail.com wrote:
Facebook has many disadvantages as a communication tool. The only reason to use it just because more and more people adapt to it.
TL;DR version of my response - I feel your analysis is too simplistic.
Along with those “disadvantages” also come advantages. In the WW group, more than 450 people (nearly 200 new people in one month) have found it useful by providing interactivity and immediacy while cutting through noise. You’ll find far fewer pontificating missives and a lot more sharing, dialogue and encouragement. As I said in the intro message to the group, it’s not meant to replace this list or to supplant on-wiki conversations. A main role it has played is to bring the most significant messages on this list to their attention, as many folks have abandoned Wikimedia-L as not worth their while.
The main disadvantage is the lack of good archiving - it is pretty hard to find something on fb after say - half a year.
Compare that to IRC which disallows logging altogether. It’s not just hard to find discussions, it’s impossible.
The other issue is the distraction which Facebook is causing… due to this
have no more time to edit Wikipedia :-( Some people
are more resitant to distraction some less - but fb affects everyone who go there and eat your time, which is the most precious asset of our volunteers.
Or, Facebook groups could be the exact reason you got back into editing Wikipedia.
See 100 Wikidays for example, which is a multilingual, international community of folks sharing their one Wikipedia article per day writings with each other. At Wikimania, the Facebook group was showcased as the reason this community of international editors was able to thrive, building on the “sharing, dialogue and encouragement” theme mentioned earlier.
You completely miss the role that Facebook, or any other social media site, can have in evangelizing Wikipedia.
- Facebook group - https://www.facebook.com/groups/1426807560950747/ - Wikimania talk - https://wikimania2015.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/100wikidays - Wikimania video - https://archive.org/details/videoeditserver-91
-Andrew
On 23 February 2016 at 12:17, Andrew Lih andrew.lih@gmail.com wrote:
The main disadvantage is the lack of good archiving - it is pretty hard
to
find something on fb after say - half a year.
Compare that to IRC which disallows logging altogether. It’s not just hard to find discussions, it’s impossible.
IRC does not disallow logging. Certain channels try to prevent people from publicly logging.
A channel can be easily logged if anyone joining it is made aware of.
Dealing with facebook: I have no accounts but there's nothing wrong in discussing anywhere. What cannot be done outside of talkpage is building consensus. No consensus can be reached on facebook, irc or elsewhere.
Vito
2016-02-23 15:08 GMT+01:00 Alex Monk krenair@gmail.com:
On 23 February 2016 at 12:17, Andrew Lih andrew.lih@gmail.com wrote:
The main disadvantage is the lack of good archiving - it is pretty hard
to
find something on fb after say - half a year.
Compare that to IRC which disallows logging altogether. It’s not just
hard
to find discussions, it’s impossible.
IRC does not disallow logging. Certain channels try to prevent people from publicly logging. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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