Chitu Okoli wrote:

1. I think the Foundation should indeed officially register the "Wikipedia"

trademark (I was surprised to learn--correct me if I'm mistaken--that this wasn't done ages ago), so that it can easily defend any cases that might have to go to court.

The registration has been filed.

--Jimbo

NB: IANAL, the following is based on my understanding only, backed up by articles from Wikipedia[TM], which officially "does not give legal advice".

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:37:55 -0500, Chitu Okoli cokoli@jmsb.concordia.ca wrote:

1. I think the Foundation should indeed officially register the "Wikipedia"

trademark (I was surprised to learn--correct me if I'm mistaken--that this wasn't done ages ago), so that it can easily defend any cases that might have to go to court.

I think the main reason this hasn't been done, is that there is no such thing as *internationally* registering a trademark, and because registration costs money. Thus there was some concern that proper research be made into with whom it would be most appropriate to register it (whether, for instance, it was possible to register in one go for all EU countries) before setting off on the potentially very costly course of registering it anywhere and everywhere. Especially since, even without registration, there would be an extremely good case that it was a trademark, since it is a neologism created solely for one particular site.

Oh, and not to mention which trademarks to register - there's not just Wikipedia, there's Wikimedia, Wikiquote, Wiktionary, Wikisource; and alternate spellings used in some languages, like Vikipedio in Esperanto and Wicipedia in Welsh (these would probably be covered by their similarity to the original, but it all needs careful consideration)

2. Once the trademark is registered, I really don't understand why "we have

to protect our trademarks". I've always thought it was a good thing for a company when its registered trademark becomes a household commodity to the extent that it becomes synonymous with the generic item.

I think, in general this is *not* considered the case. If a trademark is not used, or no action is taken to correct generic use of it, the trademark becomes invalid - you can't just let everyone call it Coke and then complain when someone else writes "Coke" on the label. From my reading of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark, it is still possible for this to happen even with a registered trademark - hence the mentionned campaign by Xerox to stamp out the use (which they must actually be quite pleased with) of "to xerox".

For example, when I used to live in the southern USA, people could go to a restaurant and order a Coke. Then the waiter might literally ask, "What kind? Do you want a Pepsi, a 7-Up, Dr. Pepper, or Coca-Cola?"

[...]

A "Kleenex" includes store-brand tissues for wiping your nose, "Cutex" means any brand of nail polish, and "Vaseline" means petroleum jelly.

Yes, this happens often - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genericized_trademark If the owners of these brands are not careful, they will lose the right to claim the trademark, and it will become perfectly legal for your local store to manufacture and sell "Better Value Kleenex". That's not something the trademark owner will want to happen.

In fact, for a while IBM advertised its products with the line, "Don't just get IBM-compatible, get IBM".

Yes, and note that they used [assuming you have the slogan right] "IBM-compatible" - a phrase which uses "IBM" to refer to *IBM* computers and nothing else - and highlighted the difference between being *compatible with* their brand, and *belonging to* their brand. This is quite clever, but is definitely not encouraging the genericisation of the term "IBM", which would have been very bad news.

The only threat I do see is when competitors make a product that is just as good for a better or comparable price, as in the case of 3M defending its trademark on "Post-It Notes".

Yes, that is the entire purpose of trademarks, and as I say, you only keep the right to defend the mark in extreme cases by being seen to defend the mark in all cases.

While that is a legitimate businesses threat, I would hardly think that there is any such risk in Wikipedia's case--though pursuing violators of the trademark seems to imply that this is the case.

Now you seem to be beginning to contradict yourself - just now, you were urging the Foundation to register its trademarks. Presumably you felt that there was *some* potential for abuse of it, else why bother with that? Perhaps you just mean we should be lenient on people using it casually - the problem being, as I say, that the nature of trademark law means you can't be two-faced like that, you either police your trademark or lose it.

My point is that I find it hard to understand what the problem is if people begin to use "Wikipedia" to mean any generic wiki-based encyclopedia.

Well, I'm not sure "wiki-based encyclopedia" is what the term *would* become if we allowed it to genericize. I can think of two main types of site for which the term is, or could be, wrongly applied: 1) sites running the same collaborative editing software as Wikipedia.org (e.g. infoanarchy.org, as started this thread). There is already a generic name for these: "wikis"; and if they want to be more specific "MediaWikis" or "MediaWiki installs" or somesuch. 2) sites using some or all of the content of Wikipedia.org, under the GFDL (there has been at least one which called itself "a wikipedia"; it may have been thefreedictionary.org, I don't remember). These, of course, are just "websites", "encyclopedias", or at most "mirrors of Wikipedia".

Now, (1) is probably not too bad, although it could get a little confusing; there was a question on the 'Help desk' of the English Wikipedia the other day asking how to do something in a completely unrelated website - because it was a wiki, the user had immediately assumed it was "some sort of sub branch" of Wikipedia. And people asking for changes on static mirrors are quite frequent. If [take the extreme case] every site using a wiki *and* every copy of Wikipedia's content became "a wikipedia", we'd get an awful lot more confusion like this.

But allowing (2) could be even more risky. A lot of work is put into spreading the word about Wikipedia, and the goal of it and the Wikimedia Foundation - take Angela's recent radio interview, for instance. If another site is also allowed to call itself "[a] wikipedia", then they get free publicity, and siphon off people who might otherwise become contributors; and if they run advertising for profit and give nothing to the Foundation, they will actually profit from our promotion work.

OK, I'm giving pessimistic views of what could happen, I know, but I'm playing Devil's Advocate: if we allow "Wikipedia" to become a generic trademark, this is what we risk. I don't see that the vague benefits of people saying the word "Wikipedia" more often outweigh the cost of them not meaning wikipedia.org when they say it.

3. Related to my previous point, I also think that the (TM) superscript is

*semantically* ugly, if not aesthetically so, because of the corporate image it gives--so very un-free like.

Yes, that's certainly a consideration. It's like a Co-operative Society having "Limited" in its name (e.g. the chain of shops known as "the Co-op" in the UK is "The Co-operative Group (CWS) Ltd"). Technically, it just implies a certain legal status in terms of liability (and some associated tax rules, etc, etc); but in people's minds, it means its some kind of greedy corporation with fat-cat shareholders. Indeed, my dad was a Limited company for a while; just him. Similarly, "TM" probably makes some people think of multinational corporations, for whom brand is everything, when in reality it just means "please don't use this generically, it refers specifically to this product/service/whatever".

And I don't think chasing down violations of the trademark helps Wikipedia's image. I don't think it's necessary, if the Foundation has a legal registration in its pocket to pull out when it might really become necessary.

As you're probably bored of me repeating now, it *is* necessary, because that's how [as I understand it] trademark law works. A legal registration doesn't obviate the need to stop the term becoming generic.

Sorry if this has ended up a bit verbose - one of the problems with responding point by point to someone else's message like this is that it makes it harder to restructure your own points. That, and I just have a tendency to write messages that are a bit long-winded!

Rowan Collins wrote:

I think the main reason this hasn't been done, is that there is no such thing as *internationally* registering a trademark, and because registration costs money. Thus there was some concern that proper research be made into with whom it would be most appropriate to register it (whether, for instance, it was possible to register in one go for all EU countries) before setting off on the potentially very costly course of registering it anywhere and everywhere.

This paragraph is wrong on virtually all counts. First, international trademark registrations are done under the terms of the Madrid Protocol and Madrid Agreements. This is something that I'm in the process of doing, but it is time consuming of course. (And will cost money, and judgment calls do need to be made.)

Oh, and not to mention which trademarks to register - there's not just Wikipedia, there's Wikimedia, Wikiquote, Wiktionary, Wikisource; and alternate spellings used in some languages, like Vikipedio in Esperanto and Wicipedia in Welsh (these would probably be covered by their similarity to the original, but it all needs careful consideration)

Indeed, some of these have been registered, and some not. It's a judgment call, and something that is improving steadily as I register more and more of them.

--Jimbo