Gerard, thank you for your kind comments. I think the system you have set up at Betawiki is extraordinary, and is a fantastic tool for helping people access "the sum of all knowledge" in their own languages.
The "qqq" messages are a fantastic idea (though I can't quite see where to find them of Betawiki...)
For Hebrew we would like the extension set up with due haste. We prefer translating the messages when we can test their meanings in context and revise our translations accordingly. We also plan to make some important local modifications to the interface that are Wikisource-specific (such as the parameters for defining the quality of a page), but we cannot even begin to do so until the extension has been installed!
This last factor is a need that Betawiki, outstanding as it is, cannot provide for.
A good part of the interface has already been translated in any case. It would reflect good will on your part if you clarified that while your suggestions are personal recommendations, you nonetheless understand that the decisions of communities with other views should be honored and implemented.
I ask the developers to implement the decision of the Hebrew Wikisource community as found in Bug 14648, along with the other languages that they have kindly implemented recently. We have been waiting for this for quite a long time, and will provide a quality localization of the system messages. While Gerard's views on localization-as-prerequisite-in-every-case are important to consider, he is not a member of the community that has requested the extension.
Link: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14648
Dovi
Hoi, It is because of the "qqq" messages that there is such a great reason to localise at Betawiki. When you are one of the first to localise a message, it can take a considerable amount of effort to learn what a message is about. Much of this pain is taken away by the Betawiki developers, but there is still a fair amount of documentation that needs to be done.
The person best situated to create the help text is the developer of the software; he/she knows best what the message is there for. It is also an excellent investment in time as it will benefit the 298 languages that we currently support.
When you localise, there are indeed two parts to it; there is the general localisation that is done best at Betawiki and there are the adaptations that are the result of project specific needs. I am of the opinion that it is best to first get the standard localisation done because it makes it much easier for the whole of the community to understand what specific changes are needed.
I am quite happy to state that this is my strong opinion. I disagree however that a community always has primacy in considerations like this. Most relevant are the arguments behind the opinions expressed. When the community has good arguments they can get their way, when they do not they should not. The notion that I am not a member of the requesting community is irrelevant to the quality of my arguments.
NB I blogged about the "qqq" messages today and included a screen dump. http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2008/11/providing-context-to-localisers_... Thanks, GerardM
On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 7:54 AM, Dovi Jacobs dovijacobs@yahoo.com wrote:
Gerard, thank you for your kind comments. I think the system you have set up at Betawiki is extraordinary, and is a fantastic tool for helping people access "the sum of all knowledge" in their own languages.
The "qqq" messages are a fantastic idea (though I can't quite see where to find them of Betawiki...)
For Hebrew we would like the extension set up with due haste. We prefer translating the messages when we can test their meanings in context and revise our translations accordingly. We also plan to make some important local modifications to the interface that are Wikisource-specific (such as the parameters for defining the quality of a page), but we cannot even begin to do so until the extension has been installed!
This last factor is a need that Betawiki, outstanding as it is, cannot provide for.
A good part of the interface has already been translated in any case. It would reflect good will on your part if you clarified that while your suggestions are personal recommendations, you nonetheless understand that the decisions of communities with other views should be honored and implemented.
I ask the developers to implement the decision of the Hebrew Wikisource community as found in Bug 14648, along with the other languages that they have kindly implemented recently. We have been waiting for this for quite a long time, and will provide a quality localization of the system messages. While Gerard's views on localization-as-prerequisite-in-every-case are important to consider, he is not a member of the community that has requested the extension.
Link: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14648
Dovi
On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 4:53 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
I am quite happy to state that this is my strong opinion. I disagree however that a community always has primacy in considerations like this. Most relevant are the arguments behind the opinions expressed. When the community has good arguments they can get their way, when they do not they should not. The notion that I am not a member of the requesting community is irrelevant to the quality of my arguments.
The policy for fulfilling shell requests is and has always been that they will be fulfilled if agreement of the relevant community can be demonstrated, and they're technically acceptable and in line with wiki principles and so on (no $wgGroupPermissions['*']['edit'] = false;). The opinions of those outside the community are AFAIK not considered when fulfilling such requests, unless they point out technical problems or similar.
Hoi, There is nothing in what you say what I have not already expressed. If an argument has sufficient validity, it should be considered. Thanks, GerardM
On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Aryeh Gregor <Simetrical+wikilist@gmail.comSimetrical%2Bwikilist@gmail.com
wrote:
On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 4:53 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
I am quite happy to state that this is my strong opinion. I disagree
however
that a community always has primacy in considerations like this. Most relevant are the arguments behind the opinions expressed. When the
community
has good arguments they can get their way, when they do not they should
not.
The notion that I am not a member of the requesting community is
irrelevant
to the quality of my arguments.
The policy for fulfilling shell requests is and has always been that they will be fulfilled if agreement of the relevant community can be demonstrated, and they're technically acceptable and in line with wiki principles and so on (no $wgGroupPermissions['*']['edit'] = false;). The opinions of those outside the community are AFAIK not considered when fulfilling such requests, unless they point out technical problems or similar.
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Dovi, you're already in the queue which is being worked through; should be done within the next few days.
- -- brion
Dovi Jacobs wrote:
Gerard, thank you for your kind comments. I think the system you have set up at Betawiki is extraordinary, and is a fantastic tool for helping people access "the sum of all knowledge" in their own languages.
The "qqq" messages are a fantastic idea (though I can't quite see where to find them of Betawiki...)
For Hebrew we would like the extension set up with due haste. We prefer translating the messages when we can test their meanings in context and revise our translations accordingly. We also plan to make some important local modifications to the interface that are Wikisource-specific (such as the parameters for defining the quality of a page), but we cannot even begin to do so until the extension has been installed!
This last factor is a need that Betawiki, outstanding as it is, cannot provide for.
A good part of the interface has already been translated in any case. It would reflect good will on your part if you clarified that while your suggestions are personal recommendations, you nonetheless understand that the decisions of communities with other views should be honored and implemented.
I ask the developers to implement the decision of the Hebrew Wikisource community as found in Bug 14648, along with the other languages that they have kindly implemented recently. We have been waiting for this for quite a long time, and will provide a quality localization of the system messages. While Gerard's views on localization-as-prerequisite-in-every-case are important to consider, he is not a member of the community that has requested the extension.
Link: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14648
Dovi
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Dovi, I really appreciate the work that is done to localise FlaggedRevs on Betawiki.. I expect that this prepatory work will improve the success of the implementation a lot. Currently FlaggedRevs is fully localised. Thanks, GerardM
2008/11/21 Brion Vibber brion@wikimedia.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Dovi, you're already in the queue which is being worked through; should be done within the next few days.
- -- brion
Dovi Jacobs wrote:
Gerard, thank you for your kind comments. I think the system you have set up at Betawiki is extraordinary, and is a fantastic tool for helping people access "the sum of all knowledge" in their own languages.
The "qqq" messages are a fantastic idea (though I can't quite see where to find them of Betawiki...)
For Hebrew we would like the extension set up with due haste. We prefer translating the messages when we can test their meanings in context and revise our translations accordingly. We also plan to make some important local modifications to the interface that are Wikisource-specific (such as the parameters for defining the quality of a page), but we cannot even begin to do so until the extension has been installed!
This last factor is a need that Betawiki, outstanding as it is, cannot provide for.
A good part of the interface has already been translated in any case. It would reflect good will on your part if you clarified that while your suggestions are personal recommendations, you nonetheless understand that the decisions of communities with other views should be honored and implemented.
I ask the developers to implement the decision of the Hebrew Wikisource community as found in Bug 14648, along with the other languages that they have kindly implemented recently. We have been waiting for this for quite a long time, and will provide a quality localization of the system messages. While Gerard's views on localization-as-prerequisite-in-every-case are important to consider, he is not a member of the community that has requested the extension.
Link: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14648
Dovi
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