Ilario wrote:
What is community? Do you mean the same community who loves to discuss and frequently to lose the aim of some votation or elections?
This is a great question, and I applaud Ilario for asking it straightforwardly. In my experience, sometimes "the community" is used to refer to those who actively edit and otherwise contribute to the projects, and sometimes it's used in a broader way, as in "the community we serve." Personally, I prefer the broader sense -- not everyone who makes use of the projects will be someone who wants (or is able) to contribute actively the way so many of us do now, but we want to serve everyone, not just those who have paid their dues.
If "the community" means "the human community," then I think we need to take that community into account when we discuss governance issues -- it seems wrong in that context to favor active editors over those who merely make positive use of the content we all provide and maintain (i.e., most users of the projects).
Me, I am happy to serve the community of editors, but I hope we serve the larger human community as well, and, as a staff member committed to the success of the projects, I hope our Board represents that community's interests, regardless of the particulars of how governance works.
--Mike
Contrary to my previously stated intention not to, I can't resist replying:
When it comes to opening a new project, both board and community must make the decision (as we learned the hard way a few years ago), because the entire community is concerned and the Foundation supporting the project is concerned as well.
When it comes to changing a license, both board and community must be involved in the decision.
When it comes to choosing our stewards, both board and community must be involved.
I don't see why all of the above cannot be decided solely by the community. If you mean that there is a legal necessity for the board to be involved in each of the above three decisions, why can't it be reduced to a rubber stamp role? Do the laws regarding foundations actually state that the board must be more than a rubber stamp?
However, when it comes to closing a project because it is a huge
copyright violation and threat of a huge lawsuit, then no vote of a community will make a difference.
I wouldn't have a problem with the board making such urgent decisions without community consultation - as long as such decisions are followed by a full explanation of the decision, including why community consultation wasn't deemed possible.
Or when it comes to hiring an accountant because we can not reasonably
run a 5 million dollars organization with no accountant, then it is Foundation job to make that decision. Not the community.
I also don't have a problem with the board deciding which particular accountant should be hired. I'm more concerned with decisions regarding the actual running of the projects. For example, I think it should be the community who decides whether it is *necessary* to hire an accountant - however obvious that decision is - given that the money to pay the accountant ultimately derives from the voluntary work of the community.
Or when it comes to decide to open a new hosting location, it would also
be unreasonable to expect us to put that to vote to the community.
I don't see why. Again, it would the community's hard work that would ultimately pay for such a new location, so why shouldn't the community decide?
Incidentally, I posted the minutes of the last irl board meeting here:
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Minutes/October_6-7%2C_2007
Beyond the usual complains about our financial statements, can you answer to:
- Does that help identify what our daily activity is about ?
Yes.
- Does that appear threatening ?
Yes - I think it's threatening to the future of Wikimedia that the board is anything more than a rubber stamp. If the community has the ability to create an encycopedia that can rival, if not better, Britannica, then it can surely be trusted to directly govern itself.
- In which areas would you like to be more informed?
I'd like the community to be so involved in the decision-making process that there would be no need for it to be merely 'informed' later on.
- In which areas would you like to be more involved ?
I'd like the community to be more involved in every area. :-)
Derrick Farnell
Derrick Farnell wrote:
Contrary to my previously stated intention not to, I can't resist replying:
When it comes to opening a new project, both board and community must make the decision (as we learned the hard way a few years ago), because the entire community is concerned and the Foundation supporting the project is concerned as well.
When it comes to changing a license, both board and community must be involved in the decision.
When it comes to choosing our stewards, both board and community must be involved.
I don't see why all of the above cannot be decided solely by the community. If you mean that there is a legal necessity for the board to be involved in each of the above three decisions, why can't it be reduced to a rubber stamp role? Do the laws regarding foundations actually state that the board must be more than a rubber stamp?
I think there are several answers to your comment.
First, in the case of stewards, the board is actually doing rubber stamp. Why does it need to be involved at all ? Simply because stewards have potentially access to private data, or may cause some people to have access to private data, and in case of release of this data, WMF is responsible. Because we host the projects and provide access to tools. It is hard to consider an organization responsible of something on which it can not act. Rubberstamping could be delegated I guess, but to who ?
Second, the license is more tricky. But in the whole discussion over evolution of GFDL, it was not the amorphous community which was called, but WMF. Also, according to our mission statement, we must facilitate the production of freely-licensed content. So, if the community was solely in charge of deciding a license change (making it copyrighted) or to ask for a fee, it might result in us not respecting our mission.
The first thought I have in mind when reading what you write is that the community actually CHOSE the majority of the current board members to precisely make some decisions for the community. Delegation of power. I would hope to think that editors (those aware of the existence of a foundation) by large, are happy to be able to edit the project and create some content, without having to deal with the daily crap of the organization.
However, when it comes to closing a project because it is a huge
copyright violation and threat of a huge lawsuit, then no vote of a community will make a difference.
I wouldn't have a problem with the board making such urgent decisions without community consultation - as long as such decisions are followed by a full explanation of the decision, including why community consultation wasn't deemed possible.
If I remember well, this is what we did in the french wikiquote case. Actually, several core members were involved in the closing, and received plenty of support to make it possible to re-open it again. They re-opened it with our support and as far as I am aware, there was no criticism about the way the closure was done. You may consider talking with them:http://fr.wikiquote.org/wiki/Accueil
Please also read this: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Anthere/archive11#Charte_pour_Wikiq...
Or when it comes to hiring an accountant because we can not reasonably
run a 5 million dollars organization with no accountant, then it is Foundation job to make that decision. Not the community.
I also don't have a problem with the board deciding which particular accountant should be hired. I'm more concerned with decisions regarding the actual running of the projects. For example, I think it should be the community who decides whether it is *necessary* to hire an accountant - however obvious that decision is - given that the money to pay the accountant ultimately derives from the voluntary work of the community.
No desire to offend you, but here, you talk non-sense. The Foundation has to follow US non-profit law, and the board has ultimate responsibility. There is no way such a decision will ever be left to people with no responsibility in the end. I am glad that community participates in the strategy related to the projects themselves, when it comes to running the organization, that's WMF responsibility.
Or when it comes to decide to open a new hosting location, it would also
be unreasonable to expect us to put that to vote to the community.
I don't see why. Again, it would the community's hard work that would ultimately pay for such a new location, so why shouldn't the community decide?
Just as above, I see not how the community volunteer work pay for the servers and hosting services. It seems that it is rather the community work which cause servers costs :-)
Incidentally, I posted the minutes of the last irl board meeting here:
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Minutes/October_6-7%2C_2007
Beyond the usual complains about our financial statements, can you answer to:
- Does that help identify what our daily activity is about ?
Yes.
- Does that appear threatening ?
Yes - I think it's threatening to the future of Wikimedia that the board is anything more than a rubber stamp. If the community has the ability to create an encycopedia that can rival, if not better, Britannica, then it can surely be trusted to directly govern itself.
Elections are next june. You will have the opportunity to look for candidates ready to run an organization of 5 millions dollars with no accountant, or with an accountant hired through a poll of 10 000 anonymous editors. I sort of doubt you will find anyone willing to take that risk...
I am a volunteer myself. I pride myself to have worked thousand of hours to help run this organization with others, after being selected by the community itself for doing so. My next visit to the local police station, because of the nastiness of an editor, is planned next week. And should there be a lawsuit, I will be the one concerned, not the thousands of anonymous editors all over the world. I also pride myself in having tried as much as I could to involve the community. I find pretty tough to read that I could be a threat if I was doing more than mere rubber stamping. I find that also insulting to all the people who have voted for Kat and Frieda to be their representatives on the board.
- In which areas would you like to be more informed?
I'd like the community to be so involved in the decision-making process that there would be no need for it to be merely 'informed' later on.
- In which areas would you like to be more involved ?
I'd like the community to be more involved in every area. :-)
Never ask for the unreasonable, you might not get the obvious and easy.
Ant
Derrick Farnell _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
I don't think this discussion is likely to make any progress, from the point of view of both sides, so this really (really) will be my last post in this thread!
First, in the case of stewards, the board is actually doing rubber
stamp. Why does it need to be involved at all ? Simply because stewards have potentially access to private data, or may cause some people to have access to private data, and in case of release of this data, WMF is responsible. Because we host the projects and provide access to tools. It is hard to consider an organization responsible of something on which it can not act. Rubberstamping could be delegated I guess, but to who ?
In short, in answer to my question, it *is* the case that the board can merely be a rubber stamp on this issue.
Second, the license is more tricky. But in the whole discussion over evolution of GFDL, it was not the amorphous community which was called, but WMF.
But there aren't structures in place for the kind of community-wide decision-making that I'm advocating, so you can't say that things wouldn't have happened differently if they had been in place. It is not surprising that the board was called to make the decision, given the current form of governance. The point I was making was that this decision *could* have been made by the community, with the board then merely rubber-stamping the decision.
Also, according to our mission statement, we must facilitate the production of freely-licensed content. So, if the community was solely in charge of deciding a license change (making it copyrighted) or to ask for a fee, it might result in us not respecting our mission.
First, copyrighting content is an extremely unlikely scenario. Second, even if the community did have the power to decide to copyright the projects, they would of course also have the power to first change the mission statement. :-) Third, while, as I say, this is not a realistic scenario, if the community did decided this, then isn't that fair, given that they did create the content in the first place?!
The first thought I have in mind when reading what you write is that the community actually CHOSE the majority of the current board members to precisely make some decisions for the community. Delegation of power.
The community chose the board members, but they did not chose to be governed by a board. You can't assume that people think that the current form of governance is the best form of governance just because they voted in board elections.
I would hope to think that editors (those aware of the existence of a
foundation) by large, are happy to be able to edit the project and create some content, without having to deal with the daily crap of the organization.
Why not ask the community, rather than 'hope'?! If there was a strong desire amongst the community to retain the current form of governance, then of course that would be the end of the debate. But until there has been a community-wide referendum, there is no point in guessing.
If I remember well, this is what we did in the french wikiquote case.
Actually, several core members were involved in the closing, and received plenty of support to make it possible to re-open it again. They re-opened it with our support and as far as I am aware, there was no criticism about the way the closure was done. You may consider talking with them:http://fr.wikiquote.org/wiki/Accueil
This seems to be evidence that such closures *can* be handled by the community.
Please also read this:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Anthere/archive11#Charte_pour_Wikiq...
I got as far as 'Bonjour Florence'. ;-)
Or when it comes to hiring an accountant because we can not reasonably
run a 5 million dollars organization with no accountant, then it is Foundation job to make that decision. Not the community.
I also don't have a problem with the board deciding which particular accountant should be hired. I'm more concerned with decisions regarding
the
actual running of the projects. For example, I think it should be the community who decides whether it is *necessary* to hire an accountant - however obvious that decision is - given that the money to pay the accountant ultimately derives from the voluntary work of the community.
No desire to offend you, but here, you talk non-sense. The Foundation has to follow US non-profit law, and the board has ultimate responsibility. There is no way such a decision will ever be left to people with no responsibility in the end. I am glad that community participates in the strategy related to the projects themselves, when it comes to running the organization, that's WMF responsibility.
I don't talk nonsense - you misunderstood me. I wasn't arguing that the community should make the ultimate decision about whether to hire an accountant - of course that has to made by the board. My point was that, instead of the board establishing that there is a need for an accountant, and then hiring one, it could *first* approach the community, explain that there is the need to hire an accountant, in order to ensure that the foundation complies with non-profit law, and then ask for a vote. The community will then *inevitably* vote for the hiring of an accountant, with the board then rubber-stamping that decision. *Even if* the community did vote for the foundation to operate without regard for the law, the board could of course resign rather than rubber-stamping such a decision - and quite rightly, given what would have been a failure on the board's part to persuade the community of the need for the foundation to ensure that it operates within the law.
Just as above, I see not how the community volunteer work pay for the
servers and hosting services. It seems that it is rather the community work which cause servers costs :-)
I'm genuinely shocked. The volunteer work produces the project content. The high quality of the project content motivates people (including those volunteers themselves) to donate money to the foundation in order that that content remains available and continues to grow. Hence my reason for advocating direct government by the community, because a) it is the community that generates the content, and b) that content generates the donations which funds Wikimedia.
I think it's threatening to the future of Wikimedia that the board is
anything more than a rubber stamp. If the community has the ability to create an encycopedia that can rival, if not better, Britannica, then it
can
surely be trusted to directly govern itself.
Elections are next june. You will have the opportunity to look for candidates ready to run an organization of 5 millions dollars with no accountant, or with an accountant hired through a poll of 10 000 anonymous editors. I sort of doubt you will find anyone willing to take that risk...
First, I have never questioned the need for an accountant, and nor have I advocated that the community should decide which particular accountant should be hired. Second, the direct governance I have in mind would involve only registered users having a vote, and, as I explained above, it is inconceivable that the community would vote for the foundation not to have an accountant to ensure that it complies with the non-profit law.
I am a volunteer myself. I pride myself to have worked thousand of hours to help run this organization with others, after being selected by the community itself for doing so. My next visit to the local police station, because of the nastiness of an editor, is planned next week. And should there be a lawsuit, I will be the one concerned, not the thousands of anonymous editors all over the world. I also pride myself in having tried as much as I could to involve the community. I find pretty tough to read that I could be a threat if I was doing more than mere rubber stamping. I find that also insulting to all the people who have voted for Kat and Frieda to be their representatives on the board.
I think you're being a bit mischievous here. Your turning my criticism of the way Wikimedia is governed into an insult to those on the board, and everyone who voted for the board members, which isn't helpful. I merely said that the current form of governance is a threat to the *future* of Wikimedia. This is *not* the same as saying that the current board, and everyone who voted for them, represent a threat to Wikimedia in the short term.
As I said at the start of this post, I'll stop contributing to this thread now.
Derrick Farnell
Derrick Farnell wrote:
If I remember well, this is what we did in the french wikiquote case.
Actually, several core members were involved in the closing, and received plenty of support to make it possible to re-open it again. They re-opened it with our support and as far as I am aware, there was no criticism about the way the closure was done. You may consider talking with them:http://fr.wikiquote.org/wiki/Accueil
This seems to be evidence that such closures *can* be handled by the community.
Please also read this:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Anthere/archive11#Charte_pour_Wikiq...
I got as far as 'Bonjour Florence'. ;-)
Thank you for getting my point :-)
Ant
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org