Very diplomatic, Seddon!

But... no. Seriously. Let's not pretend that having the WMF ED send a bunch of emails to Wikimedia donors about general US public policy issues is a remotely good idea.

Chris

On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 9:46 PM, Joseph Seddon jseddon@wikimedia.org wrote:

Hi James.

Your suggestion is noted but there are lot's of things that we want to do with email but only a finite amount of resources in this area with which to achieve it so it'll be something for to thinking about in the future.

Many Thanks Seddon

On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 9:11 PM James Salsman jsalsman@gmail.com wrote:

...

Regarding https://twitter.com/SuePGardner/status/998302792946102273

I propose that the Executive Director resume regular periodic correspondence with donors on other ways they can support the movement, beyond copyright and internet law advocacy that the Foundation traditionally supports directly and indirectly. In particular, I propose that the Executive Director ask donors to support other organizations which are working for free college,[1-4] single payer universal health care,[5] shorter work weeks,[6-7] payroll subsidies,[8] and two-bracket taxation.[9]

I believe all of these goals are favored by wikimedians, for wikimedians, I predict at around 80% for the least popular. If there is any question I ask that a statistically robust and significant survey of the question among community and staff be conducted with the urgency commensurate that work in these areas deserves.

Best regards, Jim Salsman

[1] https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/16/free-community-college-california_...

[2] https://www.treasury.gov/connect/blog/Documents/20121212_Economics%20of%20Hi...

[3] https://www.docdroid.net/epSjOI2/peracchi2006.pdf

[4] https://www.docdroid.net/joXd2MZ/heckman2006.pdf

[5] https://twitter.com/jsalsman/status/1007106802507378689

[6] https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/03/does-working-fewer-hours-make-you-mor...

[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workweek_and_weekend#Length

[8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_Work_Pay_tax_credit

[9] https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1595/12bb30b0ceddfe0525addf777bb2c31542b6.p...

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Yes. I think I am. I wouldn't have thought that WMF would be so driven by economics. I would bail from this project and find another that was less partisan, though fewer and fewer institutions seem nonpartisan to me. I expect that the WMF projects would be more to your liking without people of my beliefs intruding on policy discussions. I favor the WMF focusing its efforts on serving a vast public by offering content that is not

On Sat, Jun 16, 2018 at 6:40 PM, James Salsman jsalsman@gmail.com wrote:

Dennis,

Are you suggesting that public policy to support wikimedians outside of copyright and internet law would be outside of the basic remit as specified by the Mission?

​Basically yes. ​

We should measure how much donors are likely to donate more or less for each of the issues.

​That is a short-run view. I prefer institutions that seem committed to​ a minimal core set of values. That long-term commitment is not necessarily consistent at all times with the current views of those currently choosing to participate in these fora. I am also surprised that you believe that the economics of donations and grants should be driving the projects. Is WMF for sale to corporate donors, to large private donors, or to those who craft seductive fund-raising messages?

I would also like to

know the proportion of wikimedians who think the Mission is so restrictive.

​Facts are always nice,/

...

US only or worldwide

Peter, both in proportion to optimized influence likelihoods.

​What is an "optimized influence likelihood"?​

Best regards, Jim

On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 4:58 PM, Dennis During dcduring@gmail.com wrote:

...

I'd reconsider contributing content to WMF projects if WMF became a partisan on issues outside its basic remit.

On Jun 15, 2018 16:11, "James Salsman" jsalsman@gmail.com wrote:

Regarding https://twitter.com/SuePGardner/status/998302792946102273

I propose that the Executive Director resume regular periodic correspondence with donors on other ways they can support the movement, beyond copyright and internet law advocacy that the Foundation traditionally supports directly and indirectly. In particular, I propose that the Executive Director ask donors to support other organizations which are working for free college,[1-4] single payer universal health care,[5] shorter work weeks,[6-7] payroll subsidies,[8] and two-bracket taxation.[9]

I believe all of these goals are favored by wikimedians, for wikimedians, I predict at around 80% for the least popular. If there is any question I ask that a statistically robust and significant survey of the question among community and staff be conducted with the urgency commensurate that work in these areas deserves.

Best regards, Jim Salsman

[1] https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/16/free-community-

college-california_n_6474940.html

...

[2] https://www.treasury.gov/connect/blog/Documents/20121212_Economics%20of%

20Higher%20Ed_vFINAL.pdf

...

[3] https://www.docdroid.net/epSjOI2/peracchi2006.pdf

[4] https://www.docdroid.net/joXd2MZ/heckman2006.pdf

[5] https://twitter.com/jsalsman/status/1007106802507378689

[6] https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/03/does-working-

fewer-hours-make-you-more-productive/

...

[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workweek_and_weekend#Length

[8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_Work_Pay_tax_credit

[9] https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1595/12bb30b0ceddfe0525addf777bb2c3

1542b6.pdf

...

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Hoi, Are you seriously asking what African, Indian or Chinese Wikipedian ... does not want Americans or British to have what they do not have either? What makes them so special that they deserve this!

English Wikipedia is only 50% of our traffic. The attention it is given is excessive. Thanks, GerardM

On 18 June 2018 at 15:57, James Salsman jsalsman@gmail.com wrote:

On Sat, Jun 16, 2018 at 5:38 PM, Dennis During dcduring@gmail.com wrote:

...

Yes. I think I am. I wouldn't have thought that WMF would be so driven by economics.

Have you looked at the ED's CV?

...

I would bail from this project and find another that was less partisan

If the ED told donors to take steps that might get American editors health care, UK editors free college, German editors shorter work weeks, or Greek editors a two-bracket tax structure, that would be enough to make you want to stop participating? Why?

...

fewer and fewer institutions seem nonpartisan to me.

I wish I could say the same. The Denver Post was just taken over by a hedge fund a couple months ago, and the newsroom staff gutted. That was certainly the kind of libertarian partisanship which the Foundation certainly supported through early support of civil liberties groups to the exclusion of tax and transfer equity groups, not to mention the Objectivist bent of most of the wikipedias' economics articles. Now the reporters are jumping ship and forming a new employee-owned newspaper, the Colorado Sun, using blockchain technology to facilitate a new equity structure.

Being nonpartisan is like being neutral: relative to what? I am merely asking that the Foundation's default partisan position be modified for instead of against individual wikimedian editors.

...

the WMF projects would be more to your liking without people of my beliefs intruding on policy discussions.

Nonsense! Some of my best friends believe https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dfs1nG_UwAEsST3.jpg

...

I favor the WMF focusing its efforts on serving a vast public by offering content that is not

Not what? Not biased like the enwiki's "Economics" article implying that the government never spends taxes in a pathetic sophomorish attempt to claim that taxes are always bad?

...

...

We should measure how much donors are likely to donate more or less for each of the issues.

That is a short-run view.

No, measurement to optimize donations is how we have always built the long run.

...

I prefer institutions that seem committed to a minimal core set of

values.

Such as fighting for the economic health of their volunteers thus enlarging the pool of potential volunteers and winning the concordant PR?

...

I am also surprised that you believe that the economics of donations and grants should be driving the projects.

I was not surprised when others confirmed that the articles I've been monitoring as quality barometers turned out to be heavily correlated with articles likely to be associated with above-average donations.

...

Is WMF for sale to corporate donors, to large private donors, or to

those who

...

craft seductive fund-raising messages?

Well obviously not because there are still hundreds of banner messages which have never been measured.

...

...

I would also like to know the proportion of wikimedians who think the

Mission

...

...

is so restrictive.

Facts are always nice

The idea that more than a few percent of wikimedians think that the Mission limits political advocacy to libertarian copyright and internet law organizations is absurd. It may be 10% tops. If there is an actual question, we can and should measure the quantity.

...

What is an "optimized influence likelihood"?

For example, the arguments for free college, shorter work weeks, payroll subsidies, and two-bracket taxation are appropriate for the UK, but single payer health care is not, because they've already won that a long time ago. Instead, the ED could substitute mental health care increases for her letter to UK donors, for example.

But seriously, what kind of a UK wikimedian or donor is going to be offended by a one-size-fits-all-nations letter asking for donors to work for single payer in America? What kind of an African, Indian, or Chinese Wikipedian wouldn't want American and UK wikipedians to have free health care, shorter work weeks, and a more equitable tax and transfer incidence?

Best regards, Jim

...

...

On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 4:58 PM, Dennis During dcduring@gmail.com

wrote:

...

...

...

I'd reconsider contributing content to WMF projects if WMF became a partisan on issues outside its basic remit.

On Jun 15, 2018 16:11, "James Salsman" jsalsman@gmail.com wrote:

Regarding https://twitter.com/SuePGardner/status/998302792946102273

I propose that the Executive Director resume regular periodic correspondence with donors on other ways they can support the movement, beyond copyright and internet law advocacy that the Foundation traditionally supports directly and indirectly. In particular, I propose that the Executive Director ask donors to support other organizations which are working for free college,[1-4] single payer universal health care,[5] shorter work weeks,[6-7] payroll subsidies,[8] and two-bracket taxation.[9]

I believe all of these goals are favored by wikimedians, for wikimedians, I predict at around 80% for the least popular. If there is any question I ask that a statistically robust and significant survey of the question among community and staff be conducted with the urgency commensurate that work in these areas deserves.

Best regards, Jim Salsman

[1] https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/16/free-community-

college-california_n_6474940.html

...

[2] https://www.treasury.gov/connect/blog/Documents/

20121212_Economics%20of%

...

...

20Higher%20Ed_vFINAL.pdf

...

[3] https://www.docdroid.net/epSjOI2/peracchi2006.pdf

[4] https://www.docdroid.net/joXd2MZ/heckman2006.pdf

[5] https://twitter.com/jsalsman/status/1007106802507378689

[6] https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/03/does-working-

fewer-hours-make-you-more-productive/

...

[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workweek_and_weekend#Length

[8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_Work_Pay_tax_credit

[9] https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1595/12bb30b0ceddfe0525addf777bb2c3

1542b6.pdf

...

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...

...

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...

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I think the general attitude is clear: not interested.

I've spoken with perhaps fifty wikimedians over the past couple years, and I simply do not believe that more than 20% could wish such ill will on their peers.

I am hardly the only one to speak up for community attraction and retention issues.

Best regards, Jim

On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:

Dear James,

this is a returning topic, it seems (Wikimedia should take political stands on XYZ economic policies). And somehow it's always initiated by you.

I think the general attitude is clear: not interested.

I join the chorus: Wikimedia should remain nonpartisan, and not take any position in political debates - unless it is directly relevant for our mission. Exceptions may arise if there is a demonstrated overwhelming consensus (as seems to have been the case with the climate neutral policies), but even then focused on our projects. Not taking a position is definitely not the same as taking a 'neutral' position or holding the middle ground.

This has nothing to do with the ED's resume, or what she does or doesn't like to do. This has to do with core fundamental values our movement is built on. Not taking a position in political debates is a core requirement for us to remain acceptable as a source of information to all parties.

Lodewijk

On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 6:57 AM James Salsman jsalsman@gmail.com wrote:

...

On Sat, Jun 16, 2018 at 5:38 PM, Dennis During dcduring@gmail.com wrote:

...

Yes. I think I am. I wouldn't have thought that WMF would be so driven by economics.

Have you looked at the ED's CV?

...

I would bail from this project and find another that was less partisan

If the ED told donors to take steps that might get American editors health care, UK editors free college, German editors shorter work weeks, or Greek editors a two-bracket tax structure, that would be enough to make you want to stop participating? Why?

...

fewer and fewer institutions seem nonpartisan to me.

I wish I could say the same. The Denver Post was just taken over by a hedge fund a couple months ago, and the newsroom staff gutted. That was certainly the kind of libertarian partisanship which the Foundation certainly supported through early support of civil liberties groups to the exclusion of tax and transfer equity groups, not to mention the Objectivist bent of most of the wikipedias' economics articles. Now the reporters are jumping ship and forming a new employee-owned newspaper, the Colorado Sun, using blockchain technology to facilitate a new equity structure.

Being nonpartisan is like being neutral: relative to what? I am merely asking that the Foundation's default partisan position be modified for instead of against individual wikimedian editors.

...

the WMF projects would be more to your liking without people of my beliefs intruding on policy discussions.

Nonsense! Some of my best friends believe https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dfs1nG_UwAEsST3.jpg

...

I favor the WMF focusing its efforts on serving a vast public by offering content that is not

Not what? Not biased like the enwiki's "Economics" article implying that the government never spends taxes in a pathetic sophomorish attempt to claim that taxes are always bad?

...

...

We should measure how much donors are likely to donate more or less for each of the issues.

That is a short-run view.

No, measurement to optimize donations is how we have always built the long run.

...

I prefer institutions that seem committed to a minimal core set of

values.

Such as fighting for the economic health of their volunteers thus enlarging the pool of potential volunteers and winning the concordant PR?

...

I am also surprised that you believe that the economics of donations and grants should be driving the projects.

I was not surprised when others confirmed that the articles I've been monitoring as quality barometers turned out to be heavily correlated with articles likely to be associated with above-average donations.

...

Is WMF for sale to corporate donors, to large private donors, or to

those who

...

craft seductive fund-raising messages?

Well obviously not because there are still hundreds of banner messages which have never been measured.

...

...

I would also like to know the proportion of wikimedians who think the

Mission

...

...

is so restrictive.

Facts are always nice

The idea that more than a few percent of wikimedians think that the Mission limits political advocacy to libertarian copyright and internet law organizations is absurd. It may be 10% tops. If there is an actual question, we can and should measure the quantity.

...

What is an "optimized influence likelihood"?

For example, the arguments for free college, shorter work weeks, payroll subsidies, and two-bracket taxation are appropriate for the UK, but single payer health care is not, because they've already won that a long time ago. Instead, the ED could substitute mental health care increases for her letter to UK donors, for example.

But seriously, what kind of a UK wikimedian or donor is going to be offended by a one-size-fits-all-nations letter asking for donors to work for single payer in America? What kind of an African, Indian, or Chinese Wikipedian wouldn't want American and UK wikipedians to have free health care, shorter work weeks, and a more equitable tax and transfer incidence?

Best regards, Jim

...

...

On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 4:58 PM, Dennis During dcduring@gmail.com

wrote:

...

...

...

I'd reconsider contributing content to WMF projects if WMF became a partisan on issues outside its basic remit.

On Jun 15, 2018 16:11, "James Salsman" jsalsman@gmail.com wrote:

Regarding https://twitter.com/SuePGardner/status/998302792946102273

I propose that the Executive Director resume regular periodic correspondence with donors on other ways they can support the movement, beyond copyright and internet law advocacy that the Foundation traditionally supports directly and indirectly. In particular, I propose that the Executive Director ask donors to support other organizations which are working for free college,[1-4] single payer universal health care,[5] shorter work weeks,[6-7] payroll subsidies,[8] and two-bracket taxation.[9]

I believe all of these goals are favored by wikimedians, for wikimedians, I predict at around 80% for the least popular. If there is any question I ask that a statistically robust and significant survey of the question among community and staff be conducted with the urgency commensurate that work in these areas deserves.

Best regards, Jim Salsman

[1] https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/16/free-community-

college-california_n_6474940.html

...

[2]

https://www.treasury.gov/connect/blog/Documents/20121212_Economics%20of%

...

...

20Higher%20Ed_vFINAL.pdf

...

[3] https://www.docdroid.net/epSjOI2/peracchi2006.pdf

[4] https://www.docdroid.net/joXd2MZ/heckman2006.pdf

[5] https://twitter.com/jsalsman/status/1007106802507378689

[6] https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/03/does-working-

fewer-hours-make-you-more-productive/

...

[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workweek_and_weekend#Length

[8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_Work_Pay_tax_credit

[9] https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1595/12bb30b0ceddfe0525addf777bb2c3

1542b6.pdf

...

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On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 3:33 PM, James Salsman jsalsman@gmail.com wrote:

Lodewijk,

I want to ask about something you wrote:

...

... Not taking a position is definitely not the same as taking a 'neutral' position or holding the middle ground.

Suppose for the sake of argument that there are two competing popular opinions, one of which is more true than another. If the opinions are noteworthy statements on notable subjects, then it is appropriate to describe both. In accepting the right to do so for others, isn't there a corresponding responsibility to describe which of the two reliable sources say is more true?

​If you are not concerned about the problem of hubris, perhaps not.​

The point I am trying to make, is that those who view a lack of partisanship as a benefit are those who don't speak up when things are going wrong, and those people are hurting the people our Mission seeks to educate, and the people our Mission depends on to volunteer.

​Often, "educate" seems to mean propagandize., always equipped with the paving stones of the road to hell.

Are there any specific reasons that the Foundation should remain

neutral on any topic, economic, political, or otherwise, which clearly impacts the readership or community?

​What topics don't clearly impact some of the readership of community?​

This discussion seems to be framed almost entirely in idealism and absolutes, entities that rarely seem to lead to practical solutions for a society of diverse interests.

To the extent that we do have recourse to ideals and absolutes, they should probably be limited to the core values which the movement has accepted from the beginning. That way this institution can be a vehicle for truth of the factual variety, recognizing that even facts can be in legitimate dispute.

Hell NO!

We are not neutral and it will be a particular sad situation when we forget what we are there for, what our objectives are only to "avoid compromising the appearance of the projects and the movement as neutral providers of information; to avoid bad publicity; to avoid antagonizing governments or corporate interests; to avoid compromising the Foundation's tax-exempt status; to avoid fragmenting the resources and attention of the movement; to avoid creating divisions within the projects and the movement that would make it more difficult for volunteers to work together."

We just won a major victory in our battle to keep the internet free, an internet where we can write our projects. A victory where one of our opponents said "Wikipedia should be nationalised"; there is no neutral ground for us. We have antagonised governments. Our Turkish Wikipedia and other Wikipedias is not available in Turkey. Our established positions are against corporate interests. And to be honest, when we lose our tax status in the USA because of all this, we will make us even more money.

Our objectives, our reliance on a free internet, free software and free licenses are an integral part of who we are. We will not squander it to appease any two bit dictator. Thanks, GerardM

On 7 July 2018 at 01:10, Benjamin Lees emufarmers@gmail.com wrote:

On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 3:33 PM, James Salsman jsalsman@gmail.com wrote:

...

Are there any specific reasons that the Foundation should remain neutral on any topic, economic, political, or otherwise, which clearly impacts the readership or community?

Well, off the top of my head: to avoid compromising the appearance of the projects and the movement as neutral providers of information; to avoid bad publicity; to avoid antagonizing governments or corporate interests; to avoid compromising the Foundation's tax-exempt status; to avoid fragmenting the resources and attention of the movement; to avoid creating divisions within the projects and the movement that would make it more difficult for volunteers to work together.

On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 1:01 AM, James Salsman jsalsman@gmail.com wrote:

...

I've spoken with perhaps fifty wikimedians over the past couple years, and I simply do not believe that more than 20% could wish such ill will on their peers.

Let me be bold and suggest that around 99% of the people on this list disagree with the percentages you keep making up.

Emufarmers

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On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 6:37 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:

...

We just won a major victory in our battle to keep the internet free [...] Our established positions are against corporate interests.

When the Guardian reported[1] on the recent European copyright campaign, as supported by Wikimedia projects, their spin was that it served the corporate interests of Facebook, Google and YouTube:

"Google, YouTube and Facebook https://www.theguardian.com/technology/facebook could escape having to make billions in payouts to press publishers, record labels and artists after EU lawmakers voted to reject proposed changes to copyright rules that aimed to make the tech companies share more of their revenues."

The publishers and record labels are also corporations. I see that our stand is to be in the side of the “artists”. In the future we should support them to start collective bargaining and to reach collective agreement with the new online publishers.

We should do the same with scholars, too: help them to find alternatives to the scientific publishers. In this EU hasn’t done a great job either, although they like to promote “open science” (in a close collaboration with the established publishers).

-Teemu