Hi all,
I've tried to compile some of the old messages and discussions about this topic, which has been put in light time to time, notably (as far as I know) three times on this mailing list from 2005 to 2010 (see below).
I am a French wikipedian, and would like to tell you about this pretty old project: a wiki encyclopedia designed for and partly maintained by children. The idea of a equivalent of Wikipedia for children was discussed in particular in 2005-2006 on this page : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikikids
Although it had no continuation as a Wikimedia project, wikis with such a feature were launched first in Dutch: WikiKids http://wikikids.wiki.kennisnet.nl ; in french a few month later: Vikidia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikidia ( http://fr.vikidia.org/ ) and then in Spanish ( http://es.vikidia.org ) for 8-13 years old children. I opened Vikidia.
WikiKids.nl and Vikidia in French are doing well and are quite alike in size and activity, they are both 5 years old now, whereas Vikidia in Spanish doesn't make it so well. (If you are Spanish speaker or if you know people that would be interested in it, please tell them about this wiki !)
On Vikidia in French, we currently have a guest-book opened, and the comments left on it http://fr.vikidia.org/wiki/Vikidia:Livre_d%27or/Automne_2011 are quite encouraging (Google translation: http://bit.ly/vfPP4m ). Children say they appreciate the articles to be more readable for them than on Wikipedia, their main reserve being that some article are not developed enough, or that there isn't articles on every subject they would like to know about... They clearly expect (and claim) some substantial content, though it has to be easier than the Wikipedia's content.
We have yet a bit more than 10,500 articles in Vikidia in French, and about 250,000 unique visitors a month.
This "Wikikids" question was mentioned again in the Wikimedia scope one year ago firstly on this mailing list, and on the 2010 Wikimedia Study of Controversial Content there: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/2010_Wikimedia_Study_of_Controversial_Content...:
------------------------------------------------------------------------ Recommendations: Controversial Text Because of the considerations outlined above, our recommendations surrounding text in WMF projects are the following:
It is recommended: (...) 3. That, however, the Foundation investigate the creation of a “WikiJunior” version of the Wikipedias, aimed at children under the age of 12, either as a stand-alone project or in partnership with existing and appropriate educational institutions. Explanations: (...) Recommendations 2 and 3 (...) Much more successful, in our opinion, is a project specifically targeted to children, and to the quite different needs of children in different age groups. Some projects of this nature have already been begun in the WikiJunior section of WikiBooks, but it is our feeling that the scope of such a venture might necessitate the formation of partnerships with institutions who have experience and resources already devoted to this area.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ I of course agree, except on those points :
* /"a project specifically targeted to children, and to the quite different needs of children in different age groups"/ I would warn against the idea of dividing the content for age group as restricted as each year of age, following the pattern of school class. That point could be expounded. * /"the scope of such a venture might necessitate the formation of partnerships with institutions who have experience and resources already devoted to this area."/ Thats quite a conservative point of view, kind of those that, if followed by Wikipedia, wouldn't have permit its developpment. I mean that in such a project, one should try to communicate with institutions, publicize what they do, share some points of view, competence and so on, but he shouldn't wait for those institutions as if they would have to approuve the project and its methods, as if only them could tell what is good for the project, since it deals with children.
Another feature of WikiKids/Vikidia is of course that it let children be involved in building the content, and does not "only" aim to produce and offer content for children, for the same benefits that you can find in Wikipedia-editing workshops for students. There is both some school projects and volunteer (and often enthusiastic) children editing on Vikidia along with teenagers, students and adult writers. This project is not the same as Wikijunior. It is a Wikipedia-like project, which Wikijunior isn't.
I do have in mind that there is Simple English Wikipedia, whom no other equivalent have been created in any other language. I guess that it would make less easy to create a wikikids in english, as it would be partly similar to simple. I would also say that the fact that this wiki is not so big and hasn't been created in other language may show that its aim would not be so clear, mobilizing and justifying. By the way, on Vikidia, we do hope to be usefull not only to children but to people of any age that would like a simple approach of a subject, or a shorter one than on Wikipedia. We beleive that if its content were not relevant to older people, it wouldn't be good either for children.
Another thought, one may even link this projet with an article of the convention on the Rights of the Child http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child which is the following:
------------------------------------------------------------------------ Article 13 http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/crc.htm#art13 1. The child shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right shall include freedom to seek, receive *and impart* information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of the child's choice. 2. The exercise of this right may be subject to certain restrictions, but these shall only be such as are provided by law and are necessary: (a) For respect of the rights or reputations of others; or (b) For the protection of national security or of public order (ordre public), or of public health or morals. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm afraid that the main objection may be the opinion I can read on the 2010 discussion on this list, which is to assume that anything that deals with children should be exclusively conducted by certified professionnals, and thus can not be an open collaboration project. Since I can't see any legal grounds to it (do you need a licence to write a book for children ?), I guess it has some sociological or cultural grounds... However, the point of this message is to address the "I don't think it can work well" objection, associated with issues such as vandalism, censorship, defining the appropriate content, children motivation and ability to edit articles... since it does work well at least in two language, where there is children, teenagers and adults working together to better the wiki. And thousands of readers every days.
Previous discussions on this mailing list : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-January/015108.html January 2005 http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-May/thread.html#30511 May 2007 http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-June/thread.html#5945... June 2010
On the wikis : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikikids http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_86#New_Wikipedia_... October 2011 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)/Archive_79#W... October 2011 http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Wikipedia_exclusively_for_Kids http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Wiki_for_kids http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Wikipedia_Junior http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28proposals%29/Archive_... and July 2010 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29/Archive_78#... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28proposals%29/Archive_... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28proposals%29/Persiste...
Greetings,
Earlier this year, I helped organize and archive some of the past proposals for new Wikimedia projects on meta, and those with an education focus (including several for children's education) are collected here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Proposed_projects_-_education
Perhaps these historical proposals might also be of some use.
Thanks, Richard (User:Pharos)
On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Mathias Damour mathias.damour@laposte.netwrote:
Hi all,
I've tried to compile some of the old messages and discussions about this topic, which has been put in light time to time, notably (as far as I know) three times on this mailing list from 2005 to 2010 (see below).
I am a French wikipedian, and would like to tell you about this pretty old project: a wiki encyclopedia designed for and partly maintained by children. The idea of a equivalent of Wikipedia for children was discussed in particular in 2005-2006 on this page : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikikids
Although it had no continuation as a Wikimedia project, wikis with such a feature were launched first in Dutch: WikiKids http://wikikids.wiki.kennisnet.nl ; in french a few month later: Vikidia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikidia ( http://fr.vikidia.org/ ) and then in Spanish ( http://es.vikidia.org ) for 8-13 years old children. I opened Vikidia.
WikiKids.nl and Vikidia in French are doing well and are quite alike in size and activity, they are both 5 years old now, whereas Vikidia in Spanish doesn't make it so well. (If you are Spanish speaker or if you know people that would be interested in it, please tell them about this wiki !)
On Vikidia in French, we currently have a guest-book opened, and the comments left on it http://fr.vikidia.org/wiki/Vikidia:Livre_d%27or/Automne_2011 are quite encouraging (Google translation: http://bit.ly/vfPP4m ). Children say they appreciate the articles to be more readable for them than on Wikipedia, their main reserve being that some article are not developed enough, or that there isn't articles on every subject they would like to know about... They clearly expect (and claim) some substantial content, though it has to be easier than the Wikipedia's content.
We have yet a bit more than 10,500 articles in Vikidia in French, and about 250,000 unique visitors a month.
This "Wikikids" question was mentioned again in the Wikimedia scope one year ago firstly on this mailing list, and on the 2010 Wikimedia Study of Controversial Content there:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/2010_Wikimedia_Study_of_Controversial_Content... :
Recommendations: Controversial Text Because of the considerations outlined above, our recommendations surrounding text in WMF projects are the following:
It is recommended: (...) 3. That, however, the Foundation investigate the creation of a “WikiJunior” version of the Wikipedias, aimed at children under the age of 12, either as a stand-alone project or in partnership with existing and appropriate educational institutions. Explanations: (...) Recommendations 2 and 3 (...) Much more successful, in our opinion, is a project specifically targeted to children, and to the quite different needs of children in different age groups. Some projects of this nature have already been begun in the WikiJunior section of WikiBooks, but it is our feeling that the scope of such a venture might necessitate the formation of partnerships with institutions who have experience and resources already devoted to this area.
I of course agree, except on those points :
- /"a project specifically targeted to children, and to the quite
different needs of children in different age groups"/ I would warn against the idea of dividing the content for age group as restricted as each year of age, following the pattern of school class. That point could be expounded.
- /"the scope of such a venture might necessitate the formation of
partnerships with institutions who have experience and resources already devoted to this area."/ Thats quite a conservative point of view, kind of those that, if followed by Wikipedia, wouldn't have permit its developpment. I mean that in such a project, one should try to communicate with institutions, publicize what they do, share some points of view, competence and so on, but he shouldn't wait for those institutions as if they would have to approuve the project and its methods, as if only them could tell what is good for the project, since it deals with children.
Another feature of WikiKids/Vikidia is of course that it let children be involved in building the content, and does not "only" aim to produce and offer content for children, for the same benefits that you can find in Wikipedia-editing workshops for students. There is both some school projects and volunteer (and often enthusiastic) children editing on Vikidia along with teenagers, students and adult writers. This project is not the same as Wikijunior. It is a Wikipedia-like project, which Wikijunior isn't.
I do have in mind that there is Simple English Wikipedia, whom no other equivalent have been created in any other language. I guess that it would make less easy to create a wikikids in english, as it would be partly similar to simple. I would also say that the fact that this wiki is not so big and hasn't been created in other language may show that its aim would not be so clear, mobilizing and justifying. By the way, on Vikidia, we do hope to be usefull not only to children but to people of any age that would like a simple approach of a subject, or a shorter one than on Wikipedia. We beleive that if its content were not relevant to older people, it wouldn't be good either for children.
Another thought, one may even link this projet with an article of the convention on the Rights of the Child http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child which is the following:
Article 13 http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/crc.htm#art13
- The child shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right
shall include freedom to seek, receive *and impart* information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of the child's choice. 2. The exercise of this right may be subject to certain restrictions, but these shall only be such as are provided by law and are necessary: (a) For respect of the rights or reputations of others; or (b) For the protection of national security or of public order (ordre public), or of public health or morals.
I'm afraid that the main objection may be the opinion I can read on the 2010 discussion on this list, which is to assume that anything that deals with children should be exclusively conducted by certified professionnals, and thus can not be an open collaboration project. Since I can't see any legal grounds to it (do you need a licence to write a book for children ?), I guess it has some sociological or cultural grounds... However, the point of this message is to address the "I don't think it can work well" objection, associated with issues such as vandalism, censorship, defining the appropriate content, children motivation and ability to edit articles... since it does work well at least in two language, where there is children, teenagers and adults working together to better the wiki. And thousands of readers every days.
Previous discussions on this mailing list : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-January/015108.html January 2005
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-May/thread.html#30511 May 2007
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-June/thread.html#5945... June 2010
On the wikis : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikikids
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_86#New_Wikipedia_... October 2011
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)/Archive_79#W... October 2011 http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Wikipedia_exclusively_for_Kids http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Wiki_for_kids http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Wikipedia_Junior
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28proposals%29/Archive_... and July 2010
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29/Archive_78#...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28proposals%29/Archive_...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28proposals%29/Persiste...
Greetings,
-- Mathias Damour [[User:Astirmays]] 49 rue Carnot 74000 Annecy France 00 (33)4 57 09 10 56 00 (33)6 27 13 65 51 mathias.damour@laposte.net
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