Facebook goes turncoat on the "squash internet freedom" battle.

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Jussi-Ville Heiskanen

17 Apr 2012 17 Apr '12

12:42 a.m.

...

From the link below:

‎"It's a little piece of Sopa [the Stop Online Piracy Act] wrapped up in a bill that's supposedly designed to facilitate detection of and defence against cyber-security threats. The language is so vague that an ISP could use it to monitor communications of subscribers for potential infringement of intellectual property." In effect this law is directed against file-sharers, not Cyber terrorism. http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-17730266 -- -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]]

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Mono

17 Apr 17 Apr

5:20 a.m.

New subject: Facebook goes turncoat on the "squash internet freedom" battle.

Well, piracy is illegal and piracy stems from file sharing... On Monday, April 16, 2012, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote:

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First there were SOPA, PIPA, ACTA and OPEN. Now there is going to be Yet Another Attempt to enact draconian legislation through mislabeling the real purpose of IP legislation by inserting it as a rider to law supposedly intended to help in combatting Cyber-terrorism: CISPA. From the link below: ‎"It's a little piece of Sopa [the Stop Online Piracy Act] wrapped up in a bill that's supposedly designed to facilitate detection of and defence against cyber-security threats. The language is so vague that an ISP could use it to monitor communications of subscribers for potential infringement of intellectual property." In effect this law is directed against file-sharers, not Cyber terrorism. http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-17730266 -- -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]] _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org <javascript:;> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

-- Sent from my iPad

Todd Allen

7:14 p.m.

New subject: Facebook goes turncoat on the "squash internet freedom" battle.

On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 11:20 PM, Mono <monomium(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Well, piracy is illegal and piracy stems from file sharing... On Monday, April 16, 2012, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote:

-- Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

I've heard that pirates also use the Internet. We need to get rid of that thing immediately. Wait! What if they burn CDs/DVDs/Blu-Rays? We need to get rid of all those blank discs, right now! And hey wait, they all breathe, too! If we just stop people from breathing, we can put an end to it. Just because a technology is used to break the law doesn't mean it's responsible for the lawbreaking. Filesharing networks are no more responsible for piracy than the telephone company is responsible for a person calling in a bomb threat. -- Freedom is the right to say that 2+2=4. From this all else follows.

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen

7:25 p.m.

New subject: Facebook goes turncoat on the "squash internet freedom" battle.

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 10:14 PM, Todd Allen <toddmallen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 11:20 PM, Mono <monomium(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Well, piracy is illegal and piracy stems from file sharing... On Monday, April 16, 2012, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote:

-- Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

So what's our game-plan? Don't please start arguing about the small stuff. This is massive! I probably shouldn't even say this, but the foundation will look like a massive prat, totally wrongfooted -- and grandstanding with all the talk our spokespersons let slip out of their mouths after SOPA went down, if they now pass CISPA, which is ten times worse. I've read the law, and it isn't pretty... -- -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]]

Todd Allen

7:32 p.m.

New subject: Facebook goes turncoat on the "squash internet freedom" battle.

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <cimonavaro(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 10:14 PM, Todd Allen <toddmallen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 11:20 PM, Mono <monomium(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Well, piracy is illegal and piracy stems from file sharing... On Monday, April 16, 2012, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote:

-- Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Would it be possible to get enough other sites behind another protest? The last one didn't succeed just because of Wikipedia, it succeeded because there were so many. Facebook didn't do squat anyway, so nobody cares about them, but Google and Reddit are a different story. Just the threat of another protest (especially with a "They apparently didn't listen" theme), this close to elections, might be enough to put them off this one. It'll have to be something that shows they can't just wait a couple months and try again. -- Freedom is the right to say that 2+2=4. From this all else follows.

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen

7:38 p.m.

New subject: Facebook goes turncoat on the "squash internet freedom" battle.

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 10:32 PM, Todd Allen <toddmallen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <cimonavaro(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 10:14 PM, Todd Allen <toddmallen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 11:20 PM, Mono <monomium(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Well, piracy is illegal and piracy stems from file sharing... On Monday, April 16, 2012, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote: > First there were SOPA, PIPA, ACTA and OPEN. Now there is going to be > Yet Another Attempt > to enact draconian legislation through mislabeling the real purpose of > IP legislation by inserting > it as a rider to law supposedly intended to help in combatting > Cyber-terrorism: CISPA. > > From the link below: > > ‎"It's a little piece of Sopa [the Stop Online Piracy Act] wrapped up > in a bill that's > supposedly designed to facilitate detection of and defence against > cyber-security > threats. The language is so vague that an ISP could use it to monitor > communications of subscribers for potential infringement of > intellectual property." > > In effect this law is directed against file-sharers, not Cyber terrorism. > > http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-17730266 > > > > > -- > -- > Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]] > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org <javascript:;> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > -- Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Thomas Morton

7:41 p.m.

New subject: Facebook goes turncoat on the "squash internet freedom" battle.

Can you at least tone down the rhetoric. That's probably the main reason few have responded yet. Tom Morton On 17 Apr 2012, at 20:38, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <cimonavaro(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 10:32 PM, Todd Allen <toddmallen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <cimonavaro(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 10:14 PM, Todd Allen <toddmallen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 11:20 PM, Mono <monomium(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Well, piracy is illegal and piracy stems from file sharing... > > On Monday, April 16, 2012, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote: > >> First there were SOPA, PIPA, ACTA and OPEN. Now there is going to be >> Yet Another Attempt >> to enact draconian legislation through mislabeling the real purpose of >> IP legislation by inserting >> it as a rider to law supposedly intended to help in combatting >> Cyber-terrorism: CISPA. >> >> From the link below: >> >> ‎"It's a little piece of Sopa [the Stop Online Piracy Act] wrapped up >> in a bill that's >> supposedly designed to facilitate detection of and defence against >> cyber-security >> threats. The language is so vague that an ISP could use it to monitor >> communications of subscribers for potential infringement of >> intellectual property." >> >> In effect this law is directed against file-sharers, not Cyber terrorism. >> >> http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-17730266 >> >> >> >> >> -- >> -- >> Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list >> Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org <javascript:;> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l >> > > > -- > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l I've heard that pirates also use the Internet. We need to get rid of that thing immediately. Wait! What if they burn CDs/DVDs/Blu-Rays? We need to get rid of all those blank discs, right now! And hey wait, they all breathe, too! If we just stop people from breathing, we can put an end to it. Just because a technology is used to break the law doesn't mean it's responsible for the lawbreaking. Filesharing networks are no more responsible for piracy than the telephone company is responsible for a person calling in a bomb threat.

I actually have my own battleplan but I would like to hear from more people first, to be sure we are all on the same page that this is a battle we cannot afford to lose. -- -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]] _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

David Gerard

7:52 p.m.

New subject: Facebook goes turncoat on the "squash internet freedom" battle.

On 17 April 2012 20:32, Todd Allen <toddmallen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Would it be possible to get enough other sites behind another protest? The last one didn't succeed just because of Wikipedia, it succeeded because there were so many.

I think you're dead wrong there. Wikipedia was the only non-geek site that gave a damn. We swung the public reaction. Without us it wouldn't have happened. - d.

Mark Jaroski

7:54 p.m.

New subject: Facebook goes turncoat on the "squash internet freedom" battle.

I've been slow to come around to this one myself, but in the last day or so I've realized that it really is the same thing with a new name. They going to keep this up until we get tired, I suppose. So let's not get tired.

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen

8:04 p.m.

New subject: Facebook goes turncoat on the "squash internet freedom" battle.

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 10:54 PM, Mark Jaroski <mark.jaroski(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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There is another option to keeping up our stamina. But I won't bring it up yet. -- -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]]

Liam Wyatt

11:36 p.m.

New subject: Facebook goes turncoat on the "squash internet freedom" battle.

On 17 April 2012 19:52, David Gerard <dgerard(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 17 April 2012 20:32, Todd Allen <toddmallen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Would it be possible to get enough other sites behind another protest? The last one didn't succeed just because of Wikipedia, it succeeded because there were so many.

I think you're dead wrong there. Wikipedia was the only non-geek site that gave a damn. We swung the public reaction. Without us it wouldn't have happened. - d.

I would suggest that if we are going to do something specific in protest/reaction to CISPA, that it be localised to specifically the USA this time. I believe that we could get attention with the "they didn't listen to us last time" argument, and that, as David says, we were integral to the death of SOPA. However, since this is a USA law, actions should be limited to the USA otherwise the world will quickly become tired of what may be perceived as "overreactions" to "foreign" laws. So (for example purposes) rather than a global blackout on en.wp, a USA-geolocated banner on all language Wikipedias would be more appropriate. Note: I'm not necessarily arguing that we should make a protest, or when, or how, but that *if we do* it should be USA specific. -Liam

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen

11:46 p.m.

New subject: Facebook goes turncoat on the "squash internet freedom" battle.

On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 2:36 AM, Liam Wyatt <liamwyatt(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 17 April 2012 19:52, David Gerard <dgerard(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On 17 April 2012 20:32, Todd Allen <toddmallen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Would it be possible to get enough other sites behind another protest? The last one didn't succeed just because of Wikipedia, it succeeded because there were so many.

I think you're dead wrong there. Wikipedia was the only non-geek site that gave a damn. We swung the public reaction. Without us it wouldn't have happened. - d.

Quite contrariwise. The last time the legislation affected mostly the USA, but the block was global. I would be interested to hear any logical argument that would suggest our position would be strengthened by doing a purely USA action to counter something with global implications. -- -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]]

Kirill Lokshin

11:44 p.m.

New subject: Facebook goes turncoat on the "squash internet freedom" battle.

On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 8:42 PM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <cimonavaro(a)gmail.com

...

wrote:

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How would CISPA impact Wikimedia? Kirill

Mono

11:47 p.m.

New subject: Facebook goes turncoat on the "squash internet freedom" battle.

What about the ocean? On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 4:44 PM, Kirill Lokshin <kirill.lokshin(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 8:42 PM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <cimonavaro(a)gmail.com

wrote:

How would CISPA impact Wikimedia? Kirill _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen

18 Apr 18 Apr

12:55 a.m.

New subject: Facebook goes turncoat on the "squash internet freedom" battle.

On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 2:44 AM, Kirill Lokshin <kirill.lokshin(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 8:42 PM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <cimonavaro(a)gmail.com

wrote:

How would CISPA impact Wikimedia?

Let me count the ways... no, on second thought, perhaps not. We would be here all night. I am divided on the question of whether splitting the wikimedia movement into dozens upon dozens national organisations would be worse --- if it came into it without even a discussion --- or the wrenching drama of whether we follow googles lead and diversivy our datacenters massively or do something stupid like move into a dataheven, whether to keep incorporated in SF, or on the banks of Lake Geneva. I do think US foreign policy on the Internet issues right now is pretty miserable. I think honestly that the perception in foreign countries would be that Wikimedia can take on Mickey Mouse, but not Maxwell Smart, even when the constitution is holding Maxwell Smarts hand behind his back. But all that is really fiddlesticks. A good bustup within Wikimedia splintering it into hundreds of shards might arguably be healthy for it in the long run. And diversifying our datacenter structure internationally would mean that the SF office could hire US national staff more freely. The *real* issue though, is that Wikimedia lives on trust,depends on the integrity of the internet. All intelligent kids moving onto black nets; tight beam Line of Sight Only UV-beam connections, means they are going be much and much less on the "free" internet, editing Wikimedia projects. -- -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]]

Kirill Lokshin

2:03 a.m.

New subject: Facebook goes turncoat on the "squash internet freedom" battle.

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 8:55 PM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <cimonavaro(a)gmail.com

...

wrote:

...

The *real* issue though, is that Wikimedia lives on trust,depends on the integrity of the internet. All intelligent kids moving onto black nets; tight beam Line of Sight Only UV-beam connections, means they are going be much and much less on the "free" internet, editing Wikimedia projects.

People that would want to use ad-hoc line-of-sight links to avoid monitoring are probably going to want to do that regardless of whether CISPA is passed; if they mistrust the government to that degree, then they're probably not going to believe they're *not* being monitored in any case. On the other hand, is the average Internet user likely to stop using and/or contributing to Wikimedia projects because of CISPA? I would think not; generally speaking, accessing Wikimedia projects is not something that people wish to keep secret, particularly in the US. So, regardless of how anyone might personally feel about CISPA: is there any reason why Wikimedia *as a movement* should feel threatened by it? Kirill

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen

4:20 a.m.

New subject: Facebook goes turncoat on the "squash internet freedom" battle.

On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 5:03 AM, Kirill Lokshin <kirill.lokshin(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 8:55 PM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen <cimonavaro(a)gmail.com

wrote:

Ad hoc lines first, firm and indestructible fixed networks then, and finally something with backbone nodes, then failsafe mechanisms, then an irrational but jocular belief the network is eternal, and then collapse. That's how highly complex networks work through the cycle. There are exceptions. But they are darn rare in the universe. As to who would want to do it, there were phreakers who genuinely did it to do illegal things, but at somepoint it tipped and the whole thing began to be cool. Hence Open Source. generally evolve.th

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On the other hand, is the average Internet user likely to stop using and/or contributing to Wikimedia projects because of CISPA? I would think not; generally speaking, accessing Wikimedia projects is not something that people wish to keep secret, particularly in the US.

A fiver says one in three readers just spilled their coffee on the keyboard.

...

So, regardless of how anyone might personally feel about CISPA: is there any reason why Wikimedia *as a movement* should feel threatened by it?

I just told you. You want *more* reasons. That's just fine. I'll be here the whole week... -- -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]]

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participants (8)

David Gerard
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
Kirill Lokshin
Liam Wyatt
Mark Jaroski
Mono
Thomas Morton
Todd Allen