Hi all,
Thanks for bringing this up - although I think this belongs on wikimania-l and not necessarily here.
I believe we'll be posting a FAQ dedicated to these issues quite soon on our website, http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org, as this matter has been brought up a number of times already.
I'll try to sum it up quickly for now:
* We will be delighted to have as high a participation as possible from the entire Middle East. This is really, really important to us, more than everything else. You can visit our website and see that most of it has already been translated into Arabic.
* Unfortunately, ME politics is often plagued by tactics such as banning and boycotting. No matter how good our intentions, I'm sorry to say there will be people there who will still abstain from coming to the conference for their own reasons, and there's not too much we can do about it. If someone doesn't want to come to Israel, well, then, we can only express our regret at his choice (which we think is misinformed). I wish they could all come here and change their minds about Israeli reality.
* Wikimedia is not about politics, Wikimedia Israel doesn't represent the Israeli government (or any other political entity), and we're trying to focus this on free knowledge and a way for people to meet and interact, not on politics.
* Wikimania 2011 will be held in Haifa, a city which is home to both Jews and Arabs. We'll be promoting it (also) using bilingual posters and brochures, and will try to reach the very large population of Israeli-Arab students in Haifa's academic institutions.
* Israeli Arabs can (of course!!) reach the conference like any other Israeli - they just need to get to the venue, on foot, by car, by train or by bus.
* Palestinians living in the West Bank enter Israel by the thousands every day. Yes, they need a permit for that. Obtaining that permit is a routine operation. Yes, some difficulties might come up there, we'll use our contacts within Israeli authorities to try to facilitate this as much as possible, including issuing letters of invitation and contacting the authorities well in advance. In fact, Israel might be one of the easier destination for Palestinians to reach.
* Palestinians living in Gaza will have a harder time entering Israel. We're looking at various possibilities to make this possible, should there be any real demand for this. One possibility is for them to enter Egypt via the border crossing in Rafah (which Egypt usually closes) and to reach Israel via Egypt.
* Having said that, we know of *no* Palestinian (or Israeli-Arab) Wikimedians, despite repeated attempts over the years to locate some. If someone knows any, please let us know!
* Citizens of other countries can fly into Israel or enter Israel through the open border crossings with Jordan and Egypt. Israel of course recognizes the passports of countries with which it has diplomatic relations, even only partial relations, such as Egypt, Jordan, Tunisia, Morocco, Algiers and others. Please refer to http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Visas.
* For some countries which do not recognize Israel like Syria, Iraq, Iran and Saudi Arabia, entry will be more difficult, but there have been sporadic entries from these countries in the past, and should any participant from these countries wish to attend Wikimania, we will do our utmost to assist. We have a letter of support from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and exceptions can always be made at border crossings if approved from on-high.
I'd be happy to keep this discussion constructive and not let it deteriorate into a flame war. Of course if anyone has further questions, we'll be happy to answer them.
Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 team
On 12/08/10 01:09, Harel Cain wrote:
If someone doesn't want to come to Israel, well, then, we can only express our regret at his choice (which we think is misinformed). I wish they could all come here and change their minds about Israeli reality.
I'd like to think I have an open mind, and always look forward to having it changed. I've heard that conditions in the West Bank are pretty bad, although the Israeli government disputes this. Maybe the Wikimania team could organise a day trip to a nearby border town like Baqa or Nazlat 'Isa, to change our minds about this.
-- Tim Starling
Tim, I don't know how this has any direct bearing on the conference.
The conditions in the West Bank are not what anyone would wish them to be, including, of course, us. I could try to argue here that still, the average income there is higher than in most Arab countries and so on, but this is really beside the point. This conference is not about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and its best solution.
We will in fact be offering day trips on the last day of the conference (August 7th). More information on our conference website. Baqa or Nazlat 'Isa don't really make for interesting enough tourist trips to warrant an organized tour to. I would suggest, as another possibility in the West Bank, to visit Bethlehem instead. It has much higher touristic value. We will be checking out options to have this included as a possible day trip. Thousands of tourists travel there every week - it's only about 5 miles south of Jerusalem...
Harel
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 5:22 AM, Tim Starling tstarling@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 12/08/10 01:09, Harel Cain wrote:
If someone doesn't want to come to Israel, well, then, we can only express our regret at his choice (which we think is misinformed). I wish they could all come here and change their minds about Israeli reality.
I'd like to think I have an open mind, and always look forward to having it changed. I've heard that conditions in the West Bank are pretty bad, although the Israeli government disputes this. Maybe the Wikimania team could organise a day trip to a nearby border town like Baqa or Nazlat 'Isa, to change our minds about this.
-- Tim Starling
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We will in fact be offering day trips on the last day of the conference (August 7th). More information on our conference website. Baqa or Nazlat 'Isa don't really make for interesting enough tourist trips to warrant an organized tour to. I would suggest, as another possibility in the West Bank, to visit Bethlehem instead. It has much higher touristic value. We will be checking out options to have this included as a possible day trip. Thousands of tourists travel there every week - it's only about 5 miles south of Jerusalem...
Harel
I have visited Bethlehem on my own on a couple of occasions, and I agree that this is an interesting tourist destination, but as far as I understand Israeli citizens are not allowed in (Zone A or smth), which may make the things messy.
Cheers Yaroslav
Harel Cain, 12/08/2010 07:13:
Tim, I don't know how this has any direct bearing on the conference.
The conditions in the West Bank are not what anyone would wish them to be, including, of course, us. I could try to argue here that still, the average income there is higher than in most Arab countries and so on, but this is really beside the point. This conference is not about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and its best solution.
We will in fact be offering day trips on the last day of the conference (August 7th). More information on our conference website. Baqa or Nazlat 'Isa don't really make for interesting enough tourist trips to warrant an organized tour to.
I think that Tim's point was precisely to get to some non touristic-only (i.e. often unreal) destination, to understand better the life of local inhabitants and the conflict. This is not part of Wikimania, obviously, but would be an interesting possibility (e.g. more than beach, IMHO).
Nemo
I think that Tim's point was precisely to get to some non touristic-only (i.e. often unreal) destination, to understand better the life of local inhabitants and the conflict. This is not part of Wikimania, obviously, but would be an interesting possibility (e.g. more than beach, IMHO).
Maybe Neve Shalom ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neve_Shalom_%E2%80%93_W%C4%81%C4%A7at_as-Sal%C4...) could be a good (and peaceful) experience. I don't know Haifa, but maybe also there there are groups\location\associations worth a visit. Personally, I like very much the idea of a Wikimania explicitely aimed to a ''peaceful message'' (whatever this could mean). But still I don't want to force the WM Israel team to change the program, if this was not what they defined.
Aubrey
Andrea Zanni wrote:
I think that Tim's point was precisely to get to some non touristic-only (i.e. often unreal) destination, to understand better the life of local inhabitants and the conflict. This is not part of Wikimania, obviously, but would be an interesting possibility (e.g. more than beach, IMHO).
Maybe Neve Shalom ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neve_Shalom_%E2%80%93_W%C4%81%C4%A7at_as-Sal%C4...) could be a good (and peaceful) experience. I don't know Haifa, but maybe also there there are groups\location\associations worth a visit. Personally, I like very much the idea of a Wikimania explicitely aimed to a ''peaceful message'' (whatever this could mean). But still I don't want to force the WM Israel team to change the program, if this was not what they defined.
If you need to say "whatever this could mean" about the peaceful message it's better to not make that an explicit message. It would likely be seen by many as a peaceful message from an Israeli perspective, and that could too easily be seen as taking sides even if it isn't.
Any peaceful message should come from our actions, and not from some stated policy.
Ray
On 14/08/10 11:33, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
I think that Tim's point was precisely to get to some non touristic-only (i.e. often unreal) destination, to understand better the life of local inhabitants and the conflict. This is not part of Wikimania, obviously, but would be an interesting possibility (e.g. more than beach, IMHO).
Yes, that was the point, but when I read up on Harel's suggestion of Bethlehem, I realised that it would fit the bill well enough. It has a recent history of violence: the IDF invaded it in 2002, in Operation Defensive Shield. Part of the town was annexed to Israel by the construction of the West Bank barrier. On the south side of the town is one of the West Bank's many long-term refugee camps, established in 1949.
-- Tim Starling
Haifa, too, has a history of violence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxim_restaurant_suicide_bombing, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haifa_bus_37_suicide_bombing and others), the years of the Second Intifada in the first half of this decade left few places unscathed by terror and grief, for both people.
But really, folks, this is so much outside of what the conference is all about. It is not about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and we shouldn't (IMHO mustn't) make it into a political/ideological tour of the conflict. If someone wants to use their visit of the region for that purpose, they're welcome to do it before or after the conference.
Harel
On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 12:53 PM, Tim Starling tstarling@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 14/08/10 11:33, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
I think that Tim's point was precisely to get to some non touristic-only (i.e. often unreal) destination, to understand better the life of local inhabitants and the conflict. This is not part of Wikimania, obviously, but would be an interesting possibility (e.g. more than beach, IMHO).
Yes, that was the point, but when I read up on Harel's suggestion of Bethlehem, I realised that it would fit the bill well enough. It has a recent history of violence: the IDF invaded it in 2002, in Operation Defensive Shield. Part of the town was annexed to Israel by the construction of the West Bank barrier. On the south side of the town is one of the West Bank's many long-term refugee camps, established in 1949.
-- Tim Starling
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