In a message dated 4/1/2010 5:28:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jamesmikedupont@googlemail.com writes:
Guys, Lets get back to one point : terms of service.
We are talking about copyright here the whole time, but the contract agreement in the terms of service are much more binding, they override your copyright.>>
----------- No they do not. We've already been through this before. Any terms of service purporting to copyright things in the PD is null and void. We can ignore any interpretation that such a database exerts a new right to copyright a PD item. -------------------
If the terms of service do not allow mass database extraction, WP is violating that on a large scale. >>
---------------------------- If the provider is violating common sense and decency, we can ignore their terms of service. And who is stating "mass database extraction" except you? AFAIK, the lat/long points were entered more or less haphazardly from various sources -----------------------
The online maps are provided to you under very strict rules and to access them you must agree to them. The whole idea of many map providers is that you can only view these great maps using their software and their software keys. >>
--------------- "Maps" are not "Points". You're setting up an argument quite different from that with which you started. They aren't "great maps", they're awful maps :) Explain your bias! Do you work for Google Maps and are just here trolling us? What's a software key to using a map? Are you suggesting that some of our maps are extracted from non-public sources? But again stick to points or stick to maps, don't meander all over the board. ---------------------
If wikipedia is condoning a mass import of data from such a source that goes against that contract, how can you justify it? How can other people trust the judgement of wikipedia on this issue? >>
------------------------- Any contract that requires you to do something which is against the letter or spirit of the law is null and void, at least in that portion. ------------------------
What if we start to write articles about street and include all the buildings and boring parts of the streets in the WP or some subproject, where would it stop? What would protect a database of streets against such a swarm of fact collectors? mike>>
---------------------------------------------
It wouldn't stop. Nothing would protect a database of streets against "fact" collectors. That is because facts cannot be copyright (repeat one hundred times on the blackboard in your own blood).
By the way, many genealogical publications were quite annoyed when Ancestry decided to simply scan and index thousands of "copyrighted" books which were merely collections of "facts" (so and so married so and so and died and was buried here, etc etc), without permission, license or payment.
They can, and they did. I can copy the telephone books of every city in the U.S. should I wish. You cannot copyright facts. Your sweat equity alone does not grant you a copyright. Your work must show creativity of some kind. Not merely slavish mechanical extraction and organization.
W.J.
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 9:35 PM, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
"Maps" are not "Points". You're setting up an argument quite different from that with which you started. They aren't "great maps", they're awful maps :) Explain your bias! Do you work for Google Maps and are just here trolling us? What's a software key to using a map? Are you suggesting that some of our maps are extracted from non-public sources? But again stick to points or stick to maps, don't meander all over the board.
My discussion was about both maps and points, it is about the difference in the policies between the two projects and how we cannot use the map data from WP because of it.
Ideally I would like to see some type of harmonisation between the two so that the map data in WP is immediately acceptable and up to the same standards that OSM has. Why should I not be able to use the maps and points and other geographic information in WP directly in OSM? I would love to have the map images georeferenced or even better available in some type of vector format with exact coordinates.
OK, I will explain exactly my bias and give you a short history:
I have been working on promoting WP and OSM in the Balkans, have been working alot in Kosovo, and now we are starting in Albania.
We have looked at purchasing sat images for tracing because there are no good detailed public domain images available. It is expensive, at least I have cleared up the issue about tracing these images when you buy them, it seems that all the sat providers give you rights to trace.
The sat images that google (digital globe) has are the best you will find of those areas. You can see the buildings, the streets and all the relevant features. You cannot see most of those features on the yahoosat or landsat photos.
We have considered possibilities to legally using these images, but are running into all types of issues.
I have considered the idea of creating a project that would just trace the restricted images so that we would extract the vector data for the streets and then compare them to our current street data for checking.
also that was shot down : http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/h4ck3rm1k3/diary/10108
I have tried to use the wikipedia data points as a starting point for points on the empty map, but that was rejected by the osm team as I have pointed out.
Really, I would like to have some clarity on what is doable, what is legal, what is fair. It seems that WP does not have these issues, and there are alot of map data that I would even use, but because I dont know where it comes from, it seems to risky for me.
My arguments here are an attempt to summarise the issues and arguments that I have heard to get some type of consensus. Ideally, as I said we would have some constructive dialogue between the two teams and find some type of agreement.
I am not trying to suggest bad things about WP, I am a big fan of WP! We have been working on finding new editors, promoting WP in schools and I have also been working on various little technical projects.
What I am doing is giving you some of the arguments that I have gotten, and I apologise if I have not done this in the right manner.
I don't want to cause problems or troll at all, and I hope that there will be some positive outcome from this thread.
I am going to try and wait for more experienced people to comment on this thread and not cause any more damage than I have already.
thank you for your time and patience,
mike
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org