" Only some of the board members are elected by the community." - and the
others are appointed by those who are elected by the community.
OK, it's not entirely direct democracy, but still democracy.
Paulo
Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> escreveu no dia sábado,
24/08/2019 à(s) 19:10:
Hoi,
Your notion of community is what I question. It is in your refusal of
accepting that English Wikipedia is not a safe place, in your notion that
the WMF failed, you fail to accept that it is the WMF that is the arbiter
of last resort. You also fail to appreciate that the Wikimedia Foundation
is not a democracy. Only some of the board members are elected by the
community. The notion that elected officials are beholden to the electorate
has been spectacularly put on display in the United States so no they are
not beholden to you nor me.
"We" do not consider facts, we hide behind opinions. The result is that our
projects could do so much better once opinions are left for what they are
in the face of proven facts. We claim our references are important but
references to our behaviour have been reduced to who said what, where and
when.
Maybe the recommendations of working groups are not better in your opinion
nor mine. In the end it does not matter because there is so much that needs
an overhaul that defensive postures are exactly the behaviour that is best
to be disregarded. What is needed is accepting the need for change,
consider what the recommendations are and consider them along the lines of
how we could improve upon them.
Thanks
GerardM
On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 19:20, Peter Southwood <
peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net>
wrote:
Gerard,
It is not clear who you are addressing here, but I am going to assume it
is Benjamin, who made the original claim. It is a fair question, and some
clarification would be welcome.
English Wikipedia may have failed to provide a safe environment, but the
WMF has failed possibly even more "spectacularly", and the
recommendations
of the Working Group do not appear to be likely
to be any better or more
effective.
Cheers,
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On
Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2019 6:29 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are
here!
Hoi,
May I ask what you mean with "the" community? If anything the Wikimedia
community exists in some 300 parts and every parts has as many distinct
opinions. There are essential conflicts of interest, by some there is a
sense of entitlement, either based on possession or based on promises
made.
In many ways, what Jan-Bart wrote at the time makes as much sense then as
it made now. The model of self governance within a project works up to a
point but when it is then pointed out to it where it fails to meet
expectations, like it does when it is tasked to provide a safe
environment,
it fails spectacularly. There is plenty of
evidence showing how the well
fortified positions the English Wikipedia community among others has
taken,
fails our readers in providing the best possible
quality.
So what community and why should we bother when it is not even that great
as an abstraction.
Thanks,
GerardM
On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 17:48, Peter Southwood <
peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net>
wrote:
> Benjamin,
> Has the board or any member of the board made any statement suggesting
> that the board might overrule the community in this matter?
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Benjamin Ikuta
> Sent: 24 August 2019 07:12
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are
> here!
>
>
>
> It is disturbing that you would even consider overriding the community
in
such a
massive way.
On Aug 23, 2019, at 9:44 PM, James Heilman <jmh649(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> The board will be discussing this of course. We do not have a group
> position at this point in time.
>
> J
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:47 PM Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke(a)gmail.com
> wrote:
> >
> >> James
> >>
> >> Thanks for that. As a member of the Board, would you clarify the
> Board's
> >> position on whether it is prepared to see the final Recommendations
> >> implemented irrespective of any disagreement from the community?
> >>
> >> Jeff
> >>
> >> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:05 PM James Heilman <jmh649(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I for one do not agree with Jan-Bart's prior position.
> >>>
> >>> James
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:40 AM Jeff Hawke <
geoffey.hawke(a)gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Paulo,
> >>>>
> >>>> You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia
> community
> >>>> does not approve some of the recommendations". You may recall
that
> just
>>> five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF Board,
>> expressed
>>> the opinion
>>>
>>>
>>
>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)&a…
> >>>> over
> >>>> a much less dramatic change.
> >>>>
> >>>>> All of this is going to require change, change that might not
be
> >>>> acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a part
of
>>
this
>>>> next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you decide to
>> take a
>>>> wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so, you
have
>> to
>>>> let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that next
step
> >>> when
> >>>> needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that you
> will
> >>>> return when the time is right.
> >>>>
> >>>> I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today.
> >>>>
> >>>> Jeff
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> >>>> paulosperneta(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the
Wikimedia
> >>>>> community ceases in mid
September. Then it's all defined by the
WGs
>>> 8and
>>>>> their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around
>>> December.
>>>>> Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community will
>> only
>>> be
>>>>> dealing with those recommendations again when they are already in
the
>>>>> process of implementation.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if
the
>>>> Wikimedia
>>>>> community does not approve some of the recommendations that pass
all
> >>> the
> >>>>> way till implementation phase.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Paulo
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Nicole Ebber <nicole.ebber(a)wikimedia.de> escreveu no dia
quinta,
> >>>>> 22/08/2019
> >>>>> à(s) 11:58:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Dear all,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great
seeing
so
> >>> much
> >>>>>> attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts
for
> >> building
> >>>> our
> >>>>>> future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and
> >> clarifications.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> DRAFTS
> >>>>>> As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we
recently
> >> shared
> >>>> are
> >>>>>> recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not
complete, but
> >>>> working
> >>>>>> documents that are currently being refined by the working
groups.
>>> Some
>>>>>> answers still read like stubs that are longing for further
>>> development,
>>>>>> others are very detailed and will become more focused over the
next
>>> few
>>>>>> weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give
>>>> everyone a
>>>>>> full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight into
>>>> multiple
>>>>>> progress levels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would also like to reiterate that movement values, priorities
and
> >>>>>> community conversation processes are high on our radar. A
> >>>> recommendation
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>> change the existing license model, for example, will not
just go
> >>>> through
> >>>>> a
> >>>>>> quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration
into
the
>>>>> reasoning
>>>>>> behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what could
be
>>>> ways
>>>>> to
>>>>>> mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest to
>> look
>>>> into
>>>>>> different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included
in
>> the
>>>>>> Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation,
>>> instead
>>>> of
>>>>>> rushing to a quick fix.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> INTEGRATION
>>>>>> The working groups are taking input that they gathered at
Wikimania
> >>> and
> >>>>> via
> >>>>>> different movement channels and incorporating it into the
next
> >>>> iteration
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>> their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a
basis
> >> for
> >>>>>> harmonization across working groups.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The input that we are gathering comes in on different
levels.
Some
> >> of
> >>>> it
> >>>>>> targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific
principles
>>
or
>>>>>> values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic side
or
>>>> already
>>>>>> addressing implementation. Structural input will continue to be
>>>>> considered
>>>>>> in forthcoming iterations of the recommendations. Programmatic
>> input
>>>> will
>>>>>> be documented and taken forward to inform the implementation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TIMELINE
>>>>>> We wanted to get the English drafts out as soon as possible and
the
> >>>>>> translations on a rolling basis, so that Wikimania
participants
> >> could
> >>>>> read
> >>>>>> and prepare to engage in person. Over the next few weeks,
we
will
>>
do
>>>>>> targeted, public outreach to online project communities in
multiple
> >>>>>> languages. We are soliciting feedback to shape the overall
> >> direction
> >>> of
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>> recommendations through mid-September. Working Groups are
already
> >>>> working
> >>>>>> on identifying gaps and overlaps with other groups to
prepare
for
>>>>>> harmonization.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At the harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22 September, we
will
>>> bring
>>>> 3
>>>>>> representatives from each Working Group together to work to
>> develop a
>>>>> more
>>>>>> coherent set of recommendations. The group will be supported by
>>>>>> facilitators and external advice, as well as the core team. We
have
>>>> also
>>>>>> invited María Sefidari, Katherine Maher, Ryan Merkley, Valerie
>>> D’Costa
>>>>>> (Wikimedia Foundation) and Abraham Taherivand (Wikimedia
>> Deutschland)
>>>> to
>>>>>> the sprint. They contribute expertise and experience from their
>> work
>>>> and
>>>>>> leadership in the movement and beyond. They will be active
>> listeners
>>>> and
>>>>>> can challenge recommendations by pointing out risks and
>> consequences
>>> on
>>>>> the
>>>>>> organizational and movement level. They also participate as the
>>>>>> representatives of organizations that may be impacted by the
>>>>>> recommendations. Involving them early is important so they can
>>>> anticipate
>>>>>> any possible changes for their staff and programs, and plan for
>>>>>> implementation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our aim is to release recommendations in November 2019, and
present
> >>>> them
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>> the Board of Trustees for approval in December. We will
need the
> >>> legal
> >>>>>> authority of the board for some of the recommendations,
while
> >> others
> >>>> will
> >>>>>> then be further delegated to other community mechanisms
and
> >>> structures
> >>>>> for
> >>>>>> approval or further consultation.[1] There will be
additional
> >> public
> >>>>>> consultation activities around implementation that will be
> >> discussed
> >>>> and
> >>>>>> owned across the movement.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> WORKING GROUPS
> >>>>>> We have chosen the working group model to ensure that the
process
> >>> that
> >>>>>> embarks to make significant changes to our movement
structures
is
> >>> owned
> >>>>> by
> >>>>>> the community. Members of the nine working group were
selected
by
a
>>>>>> steering committee and
the groups were established in July
2019.[2]
> >>>> Group
> >>>>>> members come from different parts of the movement, e.g.
from
> >>> different
> >>>>>> regions and languages, from individual contributors and
organized
> >>>> groups,
> >>>>>> and with different volunteer and staff roles, incl.
Wikimedia
> >>>> Foundation
> >>>>>> staff and board.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The groups are doing an amazing job. With many of them
being
> >>>> volunteers,
> >>>>> or
> >>>>>> doing this work on top of their regular jobs, creating the
draft
> >>>>>> recommendations is a huge achievement. They first needed to
form,
> >>> storm
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>> norm as a group and figure out how to best work together
across
> >> time
> >>>>> zones,
> >>>>>> languages, and contexts. They then took a deep dive into
the
> >>> substance
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>> identified the scope of their work and the specific
questions to
> >>> tackle
> >>>>> for
> >>>>>> us as a movement to advance in our strategic direction.
The
> >>> development
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>> recommendations has started in spring this year, and –
aside
from
>>> many
>>>>>> online calls, asynchronous work and scarce in-person meetings –
>>>> included
>>>>>> incorporating community conversations and external expertise. It
is
>>>> only
>>>>> to
>>>>>> the hard work of these groups that we finally have something
>> tangible
>>>> in
>>>>>> front of us that we can all react to and help further improve
to
>>> build
>>>>> our
>>>>>> future together.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please join us in thanking, celebrating and supporting them,
rather
> >>>> than
> >>>>>> rushing to conclusions or arguing over details. Please
contribute
> in
>>>> good
>>>>> faith, and in a constructive way.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me know if you have further questions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>> Nicole
>>>>>
>>>>> [1]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/July…
>>>>> [2]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working…
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 at 13:13, Yaroslav Blanter <
ymbalt(a)gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And this is the core problem of the whole process
(which has
been
>>>> pointed
>>>>>> out by multiple people from the very beginning)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> Yaroslav
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 12:27 PM Jeff Hawke <
>> geoffey.hawke(a)gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett <
>>>>> andy(a)pigsonthewing.org.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <
>>> geoffey.hawke(a)gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the WG then collate them and decide the final form of
the
>>>>>>>>> recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate
step;
>> the
>>>> one
>>>>>>>> where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the
wider
>>>>> Wikimedia
>>>>>>>> community.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That step is not mentioned at
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequen…
>>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
>>>>>>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
>>>>>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Nicole Ebber
>>>>>> Adviser International Relations
>>>>>> Program Manager Wikimedia 2030 Movement Strategy
>>>>>> Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963
Berlin
> >>>>>> Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
> >>>>>>
https://wikimedia.de
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Unsere Vision ist eine Welt, in der alle Menschen am Wissen
der
> >>>>> Menschheit
> >>>>>> teilhaben, es nutzen und mehren können. Helfen Sie uns
dabei!
> >>>>>>
https://spenden.wikimedia.de
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Wikimedia Deutschland — Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien
Wissens
> >> e.
> >>> V.
> >>>>>> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
> >> Berlin-Charlottenburg
> >>>>> unter
> >>>>>> der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das
Finanzamt
>>> für
>>>>>> Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>
_______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> James Heilman
>>> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
_______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
> >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > James Heilman
> > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>