I'm aware that "knowledge" as a concept has a long history. I would not have expected the movement to have finally resolved the "problem of knowledge", whatever that might be, nor did I say that I had. I am expressing surprise that there is not yet a common understanding that the movement can rally round.
"Rogol"
On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 5:02 PM, Richard Farmbrough < richard@farmbrough.co.uk> wrote:
The problem of knowledge is much older than Wikipedia. It is part of the reason that so many intelligent people belive things that are "simply not so".
On 11 Aug 2017 11:52, "Rogol Domedonfors" domedonfors@gmail.com wrote:
Is it not rather late to be discussing what "knowledge" might be, towards the end of the second decade of a mission to bring the sum of human knowledge to the world, and in the middle of a major effort to determine the strategy of the movement into its third and fourth decades? Surely
by
now there is a clear, concise and actionable agreed definition of
knowledge
that we can point to when people ask what all that money has been and continues to be raised for? Why not just point to that common position that everyone has signed up to?
"Rogol"
On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 1:00 PM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Information is "facts told, heard, or discovered" (Oxford) or
"knowledge
communicated or received concerning a particular fact or circumstance".
(I
would say data and not knowledge, but knowledge is good enough for
this.)
If you can't observe the fact or circumstance, and can't communicate
the
fact, how can there be the information?
Sorry, this does not make sense.
On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 2:08 AM, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources
very agree, the intangible sources are a really challenge to way you
look
at verifiability. Not only are wanting to gather the information and
make
it possible for others to also access it the very nature of the
sources
is
dynamic and fragile bringing them into a tangible format risks the continuation of knowledge gained, a kin to exposing an ancient paper
source
to intense UV light.
There is a lot of fantastic work going on around the world on how to "Europeanise" knowledge without destroying it . All of this gets
more
complex when you learn that knowledge isnt just a few words its part
of a
multidimensional connection to and in time, place, and circumstances
by
bringing it into a one dimensional world like Wikipedia is in it self changing the very nature of the knowledge. If our goal is to
collect
the
sum of all knowledge then we need to be free as communities to
address
the
uniqueness of the knowledge we seek within the bounds of
culture(language)
from which it originates
On 9 August 2017 at 04:12, Jean-Philippe Béland <
jpbeland@wikimedia.ca
wrote:
Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources.
JP
On Tue, Aug 8, 2017, 05:20 John Erling Blad, jeblad@gmail.com
wrote:
Policy should not have local variations, unless you want to
create
something different from Wikipedia. This is about core content
policies.
Those are no original research, verifiability, and neutral point
of
view.
The one most don't follow is neutral point of view, where
projects
rewrite
world history to focus on their own local view.
On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 2:20 AM, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com
wrote:
> its the cultural differences that influence the policy, so
who's
culture
is > more significant than everyone elses that will dictate the
policies.
> > On 8 August 2017 at 08:14, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com
wrote:
> > > Yes there are cultural differences between wikipedias on
_content_,
but
> > there should be no differences on _policy_ about that
content.
> > Note also that there are some differences on use of _facts_
that
are
> highly > > troublesome, and that comes from relaxed core policies. > > Armenian genocide for example. > > > > On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 3:48 PM, Gnangarra <
gnangarra@gmail.com
wrote:
> > > > > to quote, worth a read before even considering policies
being
global
abstract
> > > > > > This article explores the relationship between linguistic
culture
and
> the > > > > preferred standards of presenting information based on
article
> > > > representation in major Wikipedias. Using primary
research
analysis
> of > > > the > > > > number of images, references, internal links, external
links,
words, > > and > > > > characters, as well as their proportions in Good and
Featured
> articles > > on > > > > the eight largest Wikipedias, we discover a high
diversity
of
> > approaches > > > > and format preferences, correlating with culture. We
demonstrate
that > > > > high-quality standards in information presentation are
not
globally
> > > shared > > > > and that in many aspects, the language culture's
influence
determines > > > what > > > > is perceived to be proper, desirable, and exemplary for encyclopedic > > > > entries. As a result, we demonstrate that standards for encyclopedic > > > > knowledge are not globally agreed-upon and “objective”
but
local
and > > very > > > > subjective. > > > > > > > > > > On 4 August 2017 at 10:18, Ziko van Dijk <
zvandijk@gmail.com
wrote:
> > > > > > > The number of pillars depends on the language version... > > > > And whether some rules is called pilöar not dpes not seem
to
be
pf
> much > > > > importance > > > > Ziko > > > > > > > > John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com schrieb am Do. 3.
Aug.
2017
um
> > > 14:42: > > > > > > > > > Five pillars are moot. > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Gnangarra <
gnangarra@gmail.com
> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > The moment you have a centralised policy you take
away
the
> ability > > to > > > > > > discuss, makes decisions, and achieve consensus from
the
> community > > > that > > > > > > create the projects. Importantly you create the
opportunity
for
> > > banned > > > > > and > > > > > > blocked editors to decide what happens in a
community.
> > > > > > > > > > > > By having a base set of simple policies in the
Incubator
that
are > > > > > > atuomatically created when a project starts up you
give
them
the > > best > > > > > guide > > > > > > to establishing themselves well before that project
goes
live,
> > ince a > > > > > > project is live it has to be allowed to develop its
community.
> > > > > > > > > > > > We already have the 5 pillars which are the basis for
the
> projects, > > > but > > > > > > meta is not a place that the content creating
community
spends
a > > lot > > > of > > > > > > time. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3 August 2017 at 19:07, John Erling Blad <
jeblad@gmail.com>
> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having centralized core policies would lessen the
maintenance
> and > > > > > > process, > > > > > > > not increase them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Strainu < strainu10@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The core policies should be the ones pushed by
board
> > resolution, > > > > and > > > > > > > > those should be the absolute minimum required to
keep
the
> > > projects > > > > > > > > safe from a legal POV. Period. Otherwise, people
with
little > > > > > > > > understanding of small Wikipedias will try to
push
stuff
from > > > > en.wp. > > > > > > > > Just recently someone was trying to have an RFC
on
meta
on
> all > > > the > > > > > > > > different processes that en.wp has and ro.wp does
not
have,
> > with > > > > > > > > little consideration on whether the manpower to
implement,
> let > > > > alone > > > > > > > > maintain, these processes exists. No thank you to
rule
> pushing > > > > > without > > > > > > > > local context. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having a community take a rule from en.wp is
different,
just > as > > > > long > > > > > > > > as some kind of discussion happens within the
community
about > > it. > > > > > Even > > > > > > > > if the rule is really useless or harmful and the
community
> did > > > not > > > > > > > > realize that in the beginning, at least it can
evolve
> > differently > > > > > from > > > > > > > > the English one. Have a centralized repository
and
trying
to > > > change > > > > > > > > the rules there by consensus would be much more
difficult
for > > > small > > > > > > > > communities. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Strainu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2017-08-02 17:05 GMT+03:00 John Erling Blad < > jeblad@gmail.com > > >: > > > > > > > > > Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the
same
core
> > > content > > > > > > > > policies, > > > > > > > > > but with slightly different wording. Nearly
all,
because
a > > lot > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or
only
partial > > > > > policies. > > > > > > It > > > > > > > > > takes a lot of time to actually make them and
keep
them
> > > updated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Creating and maintaining the core content
policies
should
> not > > > be > > > > > > > > something > > > > > > > > > that small projects should invest a lot of time
in,
they
> > should > > > > > > simply > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > able to point to existing policies on Meta. The
central
> > > policies > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > localized if necessary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Checking Meta I find > > > > > > > > > - https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/The_no_original_research_ > > > > policy > > > > > > > > > - https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't find anything like "Verifiability". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation
to
make
some > > > sound > > > > > > > baseline > > > > > > > > > policies, and with the option for local
projects
to
refine > > > those? > > > > > > > Perhaps > > > > > > > > > with assistance from editors on Wikipedia? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets try to make the policies accurate, without
"no
> original > > > > > > research" > > > > > > > > > diverging into verifiability of external
sources.
It
should > > be > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > original research in content on Wikipedia.
Likewise,
at
> some > > > > > projects > > > > > > > > > neutral point of view has become "do not
diverge
from
> > creators > > > > > point > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > view"… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would this be possible? It would be really nice
if
those
> > > baseline > > > > > > > > policies > > > > > > > > > pages could be copied to the individual
projects
like
> central > > > > user > > > > > > > pages, > > > > > > > > > so they would be "internal" to the projects.
Thus
the
> > projects > > > > > would > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > more "ownership" of them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same thing apply to other meta projects
(Wikipedia,
> > > > Wikibooks, > > > > > > > > > Wiktionary, etc). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jeblad > > > > > > > > > ______________________________
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