John
I wasn't asking for an explanation or discussion of what contributors to this list think "knowledge" is or ought to be (fascinating and illuminating though that would doubtless be). I was suggesting that either someone point to the already-agreed and easily-available common and agreed definition of knowledge that the movement has been using in its mission (not to mention its fundraising), or an admission that such a thing does not yet exist. Do you know of such an agreed position, and if so, are you able to point to it?
"Rogol"
On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 5:49 PM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Well, data becomes information becomes knowledge. Information imply organization of data, and knowledge imply processing of information.
The description "knowledge communicated or received concerning a particular fact or circumstance" is from a dictionary, and I won't tell which one. It is not entirely correct. The description "facts told, heard, or discovered" is from Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary, ISBN 9780194311410
If you can't communicate a fact, because it is like "exposing an ancient paper source to intense UV light", then other might say it is a moot fact.
On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 6:30 PM, Rogol Domedonfors domedonfors@gmail.com wrote:
I'm aware that "knowledge" as a concept has a long history. I would not have expected the movement to have finally resolved the "problem of knowledge", whatever that might be, nor did I say that I had. I am expressing surprise that there is not yet a common understanding that the movement can rally round.
"Rogol"
On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 5:02 PM, Richard Farmbrough < richard@farmbrough.co.uk> wrote:
The problem of knowledge is much older than Wikipedia. It is part of
the
reason that so many intelligent people belive things that are "simply
not
so".
On 11 Aug 2017 11:52, "Rogol Domedonfors" domedonfors@gmail.com
wrote:
Is it not rather late to be discussing what "knowledge" might be,
towards
the end of the second decade of a mission to bring the sum of human knowledge to the world, and in the middle of a major effort to
determine
the strategy of the movement into its third and fourth decades?
Surely
by
now there is a clear, concise and actionable agreed definition of
knowledge
that we can point to when people ask what all that money has been and continues to be raised for? Why not just point to that common
position
that everyone has signed up to?
"Rogol"
On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 1:00 PM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Information is "facts told, heard, or discovered" (Oxford) or
"knowledge
communicated or received concerning a particular fact or
circumstance".
(I
would say data and not knowledge, but knowledge is good enough for
this.)
If you can't observe the fact or circumstance, and can't
communicate
the
fact, how can there be the information?
Sorry, this does not make sense.
On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 2:08 AM, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com
wrote:
> > > Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources
very agree, the intangible sources are a really challenge to way
you
look
at verifiability. Not only are wanting to gather the information
and
make
it possible for others to also access it the very nature of the
sources
is
dynamic and fragile bringing them into a tangible format risks
the
continuation of knowledge gained, a kin to exposing an ancient
paper
source
to intense UV light.
There is a lot of fantastic work going on around the world on how
to
"Europeanise" knowledge without destroying it . All of this
gets
more
complex when you learn that knowledge isnt just a few words its
part
of a
multidimensional connection to and in time, place, and
circumstances
by
bringing it into a one dimensional world like Wikipedia is in it
self
changing the very nature of the knowledge. If our goal is to
collect
the
sum of all knowledge then we need to be free as communities to
address
the
uniqueness of the knowledge we seek within the bounds of
culture(language)
from which it originates
>
On 9 August 2017 at 04:12, Jean-Philippe Béland <
jpbeland@wikimedia.ca
wrote:
> Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources. > > JP > > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017, 05:20 John Erling Blad, <jeblad@gmail.com
wrote:
> > > Policy should not have local variations, unless you want to
create
> > something different from Wikipedia. This is about core
content
policies. > > Those are no original research, verifiability, and neutral
point
of
view. > > The one most don't follow is neutral point of view, where
projects
> rewrite > > world history to focus on their own local view. > > > > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 2:20 AM, Gnangarra <
gnangarra@gmail.com
wrote:
> > > > > its the cultural differences that influence the policy, so
who's
> culture > > is > > > more significant than everyone elses that will dictate the
policies.
> > > > > > On 8 August 2017 at 08:14, John Erling Blad <
jeblad@gmail.com>
wrote: > > > > > > > Yes there are cultural differences between wikipedias on
_content_,
> but > > > > there should be no differences on _policy_ about that
content.
> > > > Note also that there are some differences on use of
_facts_
that
are > > > highly > > > > troublesome, and that comes from relaxed core policies. > > > > Armenian genocide for example. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 3:48 PM, Gnangarra <
gnangarra@gmail.com
> wrote: > > > > > > > > > to quote, worth a read before even considering policies
being
> global > > > > > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/asi.23901/
abstract
> > > > > > > > > > This article explores the relationship between
linguistic
culture
> and > > > the > > > > > > preferred standards of presenting information based
on
article
> > > > > > representation in major Wikipedias. Using primary
research
> analysis > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > number of images, references, internal links,
external
links,
> > words, > > > > and > > > > > > characters, as well as their proportions in Good and
Featured
> > > articles > > > > on > > > > > > the eight largest Wikipedias, we discover a high
diversity
of
> > > > approaches > > > > > > and format preferences, correlating with culture. We demonstrate > > that > > > > > > high-quality standards in information presentation
are
not
> globally > > > > > shared > > > > > > and that in many aspects, the language culture's
influence
> > determines > > > > > what > > > > > > is perceived to be proper, desirable, and exemplary
for
> > encyclopedic > > > > > > entries. As a result, we demonstrate that standards
for
> > encyclopedic > > > > > > knowledge are not globally agreed-upon and
“objective”
but
local > > and > > > > very > > > > > > subjective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 4 August 2017 at 10:18, Ziko van Dijk <
zvandijk@gmail.com
> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > The number of pillars depends on the language
version...
> > > > > > And whether some rules is called pilöar not dpes not
seem
to
be
> pf > > > much > > > > > > importance > > > > > > Ziko > > > > > > > > > > > > John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com schrieb am Do.
Aug.
2017 > um > > > > > 14:42: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Five pillars are moot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Gnangarra < gnangarra@gmail.com > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The moment you have a centralised policy you take
away
the
> > > ability > > > > to > > > > > > > > discuss, makes decisions, and achieve consensus
from
the
> > > community > > > > > that > > > > > > > > create the projects. Importantly you create the
opportunity
> for > > > > > banned > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > blocked editors to decide what happens in a
community.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By having a base set of simple policies in the
Incubator
that > > are > > > > > > > > atuomatically created when a project starts up
you
give
them > > the > > > > best > > > > > > > guide > > > > > > > > to establishing themselves well before that
project
goes
> live, > > > > ince a > > > > > > > > project is live it has to be allowed to develop
its
> community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We already have the 5 pillars which are the basis
for
the
> > > projects, > > > > > but > > > > > > > > meta is not a place that the content creating
community
> spends > > a > > > > lot > > > > > of > > > > > > > > time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3 August 2017 at 19:07, John Erling Blad < > jeblad@gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having centralized core policies would lessen
the
> maintenance > > > and > > > > > > > > process, > > > > > > > > > not increase them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Strainu < > > strainu10@gmail.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The core policies should be the ones pushed
by
board
> > > > resolution, > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > those should be the absolute minimum required
to
keep
the > > > > > projects > > > > > > > > > > safe from a legal POV. Period. Otherwise,
people
with
> > little > > > > > > > > > > understanding of small Wikipedias will try to
push
stuff > > from > > > > > > en.wp. > > > > > > > > > > Just recently someone was trying to have an
RFC
on
meta
> on > > > all > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > different processes that en.wp has and ro.wp
does
not
> have, > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > little consideration on whether the manpower
to
> implement, > > > let > > > > > > alone > > > > > > > > > > maintain, these processes exists. No thank
you
to
rule
> > > pushing > > > > > > > without > > > > > > > > > > local context. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having a community take a rule from en.wp is
different,
> > just > > > as > > > > > > long > > > > > > > > > > as some kind of discussion happens within the
community
> > about > > > > it. > > > > > > > Even > > > > > > > > > > if the rule is really useless or harmful and
the
> community > > > did > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > realize that in the beginning, at least it
can
evolve
> > > > differently > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > the English one. Have a centralized
repository
and
trying > > to > > > > > change > > > > > > > > > > the rules there by consensus would be much
more
difficult > > for > > > > > small > > > > > > > > > > communities. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Strainu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2017-08-02 17:05 GMT+03:00 John Erling Blad < > > > jeblad@gmail.com > > > > >: > > > > > > > > > > > Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually
the
same
> core > > > > > content > > > > > > > > > > policies, > > > > > > > > > > > but with slightly different wording. Nearly
all,
> because > > a > > > > lot > > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated
or
only
> > partial > > > > > > > policies. > > > > > > > > It > > > > > > > > > > > takes a lot of time to actually make them
and
keep
them > > > > > updated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Creating and maintaining the core content
policies
> should > > > not > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > something > > > > > > > > > > > that small projects should invest a lot of
time
in,
> they > > > > should > > > > > > > > simply > > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > able to point to existing policies on Meta.
The
central > > > > > policies > > > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > localized if necessary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Checking Meta I find > > > > > > > > > > > - https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/The_no_original_research_ > > > > > > policy > > > > > > > > > > > - https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Neutral_point_of_view > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't find anything like "Verifiability". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would it be possible for Wikimedia
Foundation
to
make
> > some > > > > > sound > > > > > > > > > baseline > > > > > > > > > > > policies, and with the option for local
projects
to
> > refine > > > > > those? > > > > > > > > > Perhaps > > > > > > > > > > > with assistance from editors on Wikipedia? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets try to make the policies accurate,
without
"no
> > > original > > > > > > > > research" > > > > > > > > > > > diverging into verifiability of external
sources.
It
> > should > > > > be > > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > > > original research in content on Wikipedia.
Likewise,
at > > > some > > > > > > > projects > > > > > > > > > > > neutral point of view has become "do not
diverge
from
> > > > creators > > > > > > > point > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > view"… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would this be possible? It would be really
nice
if
> those > > > > > baseline > > > > > > > > > > policies > > > > > > > > > > > pages could be copied to the individual
projects
like
> > > central > > > > > > user > > > > > > > > > pages, > > > > > > > > > > > so they would be "internal" to the
projects.
Thus
the
> > > > projects > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > more "ownership" of them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same thing apply to other meta projects (Wikipedia, > > > > > > Wikibooks, > > > > > > > > > > > Wiktionary, etc). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jeblad > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > > > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > > > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > > > > > > New messages to:
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