Hoi,
I do not care about Mr Trump, I care about what it means for us, for our
community and the employees of the WMF. You are right the world is not San
Francisco. It is why I do not bother you with my thoughts about my opinion
about him.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 7 February 2017 at 13:49, Leigh Thelmadatter <osamadre(a)hotmail.com>
wrote:
The
people who are loudest in their demands for consensus do not represent the
Wikimedia movement.
The voices loudest for the WMF doing something against the Trump
administration are not representative of the Wikimedia movement either...
they have been WMF employees and those closest to them. This is maybe why
most non-profits hire EDs from outside the organization then from within.
As you show, Gerard, there has been no effort to find out what the movement
thinks, and that may have been those behind the statement and amicus brief
just assumed everybody would agree with them. The world is not San
Francisco.
________________________________
From: Wikimedia-l <wikimedia-l-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org> on behalf of
Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, February 6, 2017 10:51:24 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Politics
Hoi,
As far as I am concerned, the WMF is not democratic. It does not matter.
What does matter is that people only care about their own arguments and are
not willing to entertain the considerations of others. While to some extend
policies are worthwhile at the same time they prevent people from thinking.
The consequence of the conversation being in English and the location of
many of the "policies" is that English Wikipedia is over represented. It is
however less than 50% of our traffic and you would not consider this from
the demands put forward by this community. At the same time my perception
is that all our communities think they are inherently superior and because
of their policies refuse to collaborate with others. Wikidata is what I
most closely associate with and they refuse to collaborate with non
professional communities because there are errors in their work. Obviously
self reflection is lacking.
Similar observations are possible for all the Wikipedia communities I know.
When we consider the world outside of our movement; we have been quite
happy to condemn actions by the Chinese government. Now that the US
American negatively impacts the WMF workforce and the ability for people to
come to the WMF office people object that they are not consulted. Again, we
are not a democracy and the "policies" have to function in the real world.
In the real world our director and our board are allowed and do as the
situation requires. In the real world two lawyers with experience in this
field indicate that action indeed needs to be taken now. Hallelujah.
The WMF is not a member organisation. Chapters are. Chapters however do not
represent our projects and consequently they have no direct impact on the
WMF itself. Consensus while admirable does not mean representation. The
people who are loudest in their demands for consensus do not represent the
Wikimedia movement. As it is, the current situation where we have a board
that reflects the international composition of our movement does really
well. They do consider the thoughts of the community but if anything they
are also stifling what we do with too many well meant policies that are
seen as law.
Rules, guidelines even laws are a necessity. But they have a tendency to
empower those with the loudest voice and they favour the incumbent. The
current US government has a disdain for the law and as a consequence this
invalidates the normal use of rules, guidelines and even laws. They are
invalidated because the attention to what happens is as immediate as the
pace whereby new ukazes are issued.
If anything we are blessed with a board and a director who seek to inform,
to connect to our communities and stay as close as possible to our general
practice. They think and they react to a different world.. Again we face a
world where much of our accomplishments are squandered to benefit those who
are the real people / organisations behind the current US government. I am
happy that I still may vote in the Dutch elections I hope for a different
outcome in the Netherlands.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 6 February 2017 at 18:13, Adam Wight <awight(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:
Dear friends,
As wonderful as it is to see this discussion unfold, showing how many of
us
care deeply about humanism and the movement's
impact in the material
world,
I'd like to observe that it also demonstrates
how underdeveloped our
movement-wide political processes are. To my understanding, our tools
consist of: a small group interested in participating in this mailing
list,
a small group who attends to metawiki, and an
infrequent meeting of
chapters.
It seems that all of these venues are frustrated by a lack of real power,
and Wikimedia-l in particular has the character of a pirate radio station
or underground newspaper rather than a place where we can build
consensus.
There's certainly some value in the
oppositional and antiestablishment
perspective that comes out of this arrangement, but perhaps we're missing
out on the benefits that would come from a fully-developed democracy?
One alternative approach would be that Wikimedians resurrect something
like
a "membership organization" in which
you collectively own the WMF and
directly elect the entire Board. Then you may find your questions
answered, and have a path to building lasting consensus around
movement-wide issues.
Adam
[[mw:User:Adamw]]
On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 12:33 AM, Christophe Henner <
chenner(a)wikimedia.org>
wrote:
> Hey,
>
> I love that thread. Touchy topîc and yet an awesome discussion, Thank
you
> so much :D
>
> A few month ago, little time after my election, I asked that question
on
Facebook
and provided my own answer. And yes, I do believe that saying
neutral knowledge should be freely accessible by everyone on the planet
is
kind of a really really really really strong
political statement.
I also think that "politic" discussion is hard to have as the word
politics
> can bare many different meaning. One of them is derived on how we use
it
> regarding national politics. We use politics
as a word to include all
> politics (economic, social, education, etc.). And political party, or a
> political organization, will tend to adress all of them (or some).
>
> That is not what we are talking about actually. To me, I mean politic
as,
> Asaf will love that, in latin (pertaining to
public life). We are a
> political organization, we stand for strong values, but we are not
> political in the sense we're aligned with a specific party or
candidate.
And I
don't know about the US, but one thing I love with french
wikimedian
is knowing some of them are so fare away from me
on the political scale
and
yet share values (if I had time I would love to
explain how I believe
this
is an exemple of why our political systems are
broken ^^).
So in the end, to me, the question is where do we draw the line when it
comes to standing up for our values and, related questions, what are
those
> values we should stand up for?
>
> But again, as a movement, we have the potential to have a huge impact
on
the
world. That is not neutral, that is a force of change and change
always
is poltical.
Christophe HENNER
Chair of the board of trustees
chenner(a)wikimedia.org
+33650664739
twitter *@schiste* skype *christophe_henner*
On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Asaf Bartov <abartov(a)wikimedia.org>
wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 2:55 PM James Salsman <jsalsman(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > The question I have been trying to ask, going back years now in
fact,
> is
> > > whether "empower" refers to the political power to secure and
retain
> > > the freedoms necessary and
sufficent to contribute to the mission,
or
> some other kind of power.
>
Well, it's your lucky day: you're finally getting an answer!
WMF's de-facto interpretation of "empower" in the [[m:Mission]] does
*not*
> include "political power to secure and retain the freedoms necessary
and
> > sufficient to contribute to the mission".
> >
> > We do not directly solve people's lacking infrastructure (except
> indirectly
> > via partnerships like Wikipedia Zero), we do not provide computers to
> > billions of people who don't have them, we do not teach literacy to
the
> > illiterate, we do not feed the poor so
that they may contribute, and
we
> do
> > not declare war on North Korea to free its poor people from the awful
> > tyranny they suffer under, to enable them to contribute. The list
goes
> on.
> >
> >
> > The concrete ways WMF worked to "empower" have been providing and
> > maintaining the main contribution platforms (the wikis), auxiliary
> > platforms (Tool Labs, Quarry, PAWS, Wikidata Query, etc.), funding
for
*Wikimedia-related* activities via grants,
programmatic resources and
mentorship, funding and support for international gatherings of the
active
> community, and a few other things.
>
> Your aspirational expansive interpretation (which includes paying
editors
> > to enable them to contribute, if memory serves) of "empower" has
never
> been
> > close to what WMF, under its various leaderships, ever considered
> > appropriate.
> >
> > Now that your years-long query has an answer, perhaps you can stop
> asking.
> >
> > A.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/ mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>