Anna
Thank you for that. In general an engagement works well when both, or all,
parties have something to bring to the table and something to gain from the
engagement (and certain other factors are in . So for example, in the
field of software planning one might expect that an engagement between
members of the community with an interest in and experience of software
issues as they affect contributors, and the WMF management developing the
software roadmap would be effective. I do hope the WMF decides to try that
some time. In this instance, there seems little that members of the
community can do to help the WMF management handle a team problem that is
taking place entirely within the WMF as an organisation. It may well be
that there are people in the community with experience in managing software
teams, but it seems unlikely that they will be in a position to give you
the help you need on the time scales that you need it. Perhaps at some
later date the senior leadership will want to do a lessons learned exercise
and it might be that certain community members could help, but I would not
use up the valuable bandwidth of staff and volunteers giving a blo-by-blow
account of this particular incident. In the middle ground, there is the
issue of the current product roadmap and its delivery. Perhaps an
indication of what that roadmap is may help to refine and revise the plan
that will have to be drawn up for executing the work that is left hanging
by these events.
"Rogol"
On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:12 PM, Anna Stillwell <astillwell(a)wikimedia.org>
wrote:
Rogol,
Good to hear from you.
"I am surprised by the notion that WMF middle management is in some way
answerable to the Community. I would have thought that was the least
productive
form of engagement between the two sides."
Rogol, I'd like to hear more about what you mean here, specifically in this
instance. Then, would you be willing to generalize in categories: a
spectrum of the least productive forms of engagement between the
communities and WMF to the most productive forms of engagement?
"But doing planning better is a lesson for management to learn, not for the
Community."
Yes. Agreed. Though generally I would say that everybody should always be
learning on all sides of the fence, but I can't disagree with your
statement.
/a
On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 2:30 PM, Rogol Domedonfors <domedonfors(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
I am surprised by the notion that WMF middle
management is in some way
answerable to the Community. I would have thought that was the least
productive form of engagement between the two sides. The issue is what,
if
anything, will happen to the tools that the
contributors want and need to
carry on doing their work. Wes Moran says that they will be delivered on
schedule and I presume he is in a position to make that happen.
It's disturbing to read that the failure of this team is attributed by
Chris Koerner to planning. But doing planning better is a lesson for
management to learn, not for the Community. It so happens that I have
advocated for involving the Community in the planing more, earlier and
at a
higher level. But I do not regard this setback
as attributable to the
Foundation's reluctance to do that.
"Rogol"
On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:18 AM, James Heilman <jmh649(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
I guess the question is was this a request for
input on what the
community
> thinks of the Interactive Team or the strategy of the discovery team?
Or
was it
simply a "for your information", we have decided to do X, Y, and
Z.
The first is much more preferable to the second,
but it appears the
second
> was what was intended. We as Wikipedians, of course, while give you our
> opinions on these decisions whether you request them or not :-)
>
> Now to be clear I am not requesting an official response. I am
expressing
> 1) my support for the work that the
Interactive Team was carrying out.
2)
my great
appreciation to Yuri for the years he has dedicated to the WM
movement. IMO him being let go is a great loss to our movement. People
who
both understand tech and can explain tech to the
non expert are few and
far
> between and Yuri was both. While I imagine and hope that he will
continue
> on as a volunteer, it is easy to get
distracted by working to put food
on
the
table. Maybe another team within the WMF or within the Wikimedia
movement will pick him up.
Best
James
On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Anna Stillwell <
astillwell(a)wikimedia.org>
wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 9:14 PM, Pete Forsyth <peteforsyth(a)gmail.com
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Anna,
> > >
> > > I've now read what you quoted for a third time, and can confirm I
did
> >
understand, and agree with, what you said. I'm sorry my summary was
> > inadequate, and may have made it seem otherwise.
> >
> > As for planning, I am not making assumptions, but perhaps
interpreting
> > differently from you. I'm happy to
defer to Pine on the details;
their
> > > recent message captures the gist of what I intended.
> > >
> > > I can't give a solid estimate of the "half-life," but I do
not
think
the
> > enthusiasm I've seen (and the metrics I cited in my initial message
on
this
> thread) constitute a passing crush. I do think a "pause" that
necessitates
> addressing uncertainty when discussing popular features can have a
> significant impact, and therefore should be minimized to whatever
degree
> is
> > attainable. I could be wrong, but that's my belief.
> >
>
> Got it. (I add color so I can see. I think I need better glasses.
Sad!).
>
> As for the request for more time, I guess I'm just not sure what to
make
> > of it. I make no demands, and I'm not sure I've heard Pine, James,
DJ,
> or
> > > anybody in this thread make demands. Is there somebody with
standing
to
>
grant such a request? I've heard it, and it makes sense. It's
worthwhile
> to
> > know that the team needs more time, and plans to share more on a
scale
that
> sounds like days-to-weeks. But if there's something specific being
asked
> of
> > me (or others on this list), I'm not clear on what it is.
> >
>
> I was just asking whether you thought it was reasonable to give them
the
time that
they asked for. It wasn't a governance question, or a
discussion
> about authority. I was just asking if those who commented, who all
seemed
> > to have legitimate concerns, were willing to have the team get back
to
them
> with any answers that they could fairly, justly, respectfully and
legally
> provide, but more likely they would talk
about the future work.
>
> In my mind I've been clear and consistent: "Hey, do you guys think it
is
> reasonable to give these guys some
time?" But it seems like I've not
made
> this point clear. Would singing it at
karaoke help?
>
> >
> > I'd be happy to chat if you come back to it at the end of Q3, if
you'd
> > like.
> >
>
> Thanks. I'll reach out.
>
> >
> > -Pete
> >
> > [[User:Peteforsyth]]
> >
> >
> >
> > On 01/25/2017 06:38 PM, Anna Stillwell wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 4:53 PM, Pete Forsyth <
peteforsyth(a)gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Anna,
> >>>
> >>> Pete,
> >>
> >> Your points are valid and well taken. If I may summarize what I
think
I
> >>> heard, it's basically: "Getting things right can be hard, and
if
full
> >>> preparations weren't made
ahead of time, thorough answers may not
be
> > >>> readily available. Be compassionate/patient." Is that about
right?
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> I appreciate that you are trying to understand what I mean.
Thanks.
> > >>
> > >> No, I didn’t say getting things right can be hard. I said, “This
> > >> communication thing is hard, especially when people are involved.
> > >> Sometimes
> > >> there are laws that constrain what we say. Sometimes we don’t know
> > whether
> > >> we are right yet and we need a further unpacking of the facts. The
> truth
> > >> is
> > >> that there can be a whole host of reasons for partial
communication
that
> >> aren’t related to competence or the intent to deceive.”
> >>
> >> As for the preparations, it seems that a lot of assumptions are
being
> >> made.
> >> As for thorough answers, some might already be known and others
known
> once
> >> more planning is completed. However, it could be that the
explanations
> > you
> > >> want are not legal to share. There are many issues where
employment
> law
> > >> and
> > >> worker protections are crystal clear, as they should be.
> > >>
> > >> As for compassion, I don’t require it. That seems like extra to
me.
I
> > >> usually prefer just paying attention, but that’s my personal
choice.
>
>>
> >> The team asked for some time. I wondered if that would be a
reasonable
> > >> request to grant them.
> > >>
> > >> If so, I agree in principle and in spirit, but I think the point
is
in
> >>
> >>> tension with
> >>> another one:
> >>>
> >>> Community and public enthusiasm for software can be a rare and
> important
> >>> thing. The conditions that make it grow, shrink, or sustain are
> complex,
> >>> and largely beyond the influence of a handful of mailing list
> >>> participants.
> >>> The recent outputs of the Interactive Team have generated
enthusiasm
> > in a
> > >>> number of venues, and many on this list (both volunteers and
staff)
would
>>> like to see it grow or sustain, and perhaps throw a little weight
behind
>>> an
>>> effort to make it grow or sustain.
>>>
>>> Good points. I mean that. Glad to hear of these recent outputs
generate
>> excitement. I’m personally also getting
quite excited about ORES
>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Objective_Revision_
Evaluation_Service>
>> and
>>
>> what’s going on with the Community Tech Wish List, Labs, and New
Readers.
>> But I also get that you want to be clear: you'd like to see the
>> interactive
>> team’s work grow or sustain. Makes sense.
>>
>> The only thing I heard is that the team said that they needed to
pause,
> >> have a bit of time, and get back to everybody. “The team's aim
during
> > this
> > >> period is to get its work to a stable and maintainable state.”
> > >>
> > >> But that enthusiasm has a half-life. What is possible today may
not
be
> > >>> possible next week or next month. The zeitgeist may have evolved
or
> > moved
> > >>> on by then.
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm not in disagreement with your main point about enthusiasm
for
> > >> software.
> > >> I think it's a very good one. Enthusiasm with a half life of a
week,
> > >> however, sounds more like a
passing crush. Nevertheless, your
point
>
still
> >> stands.
> >>
> >> -Pete
> >>> --
> >>> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
> >>>
> >>> /a
> >> [[User:Annaproject]]
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 3:53 PM, Anna Stillwell <
> astillwell(a)wikimedia.org
> >>> >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> You make substantive points, Tim. Thank you.
> >>>>
> >>>> "An employee should not experience their time off as a period
where
> > his
> > >>>> [her/they] work load is just temporarily buffered until his
> [her/they]
> > >>>> return, but where colleagues will step in and take care of
> business."
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I take this point seriously and don't wish you to think
otherwise.
> In
> > >>>> theory, I absolutely agree. In practice, sometimes we all
face
> > >>>>
> > >>> constraints.
> > >>>
> > >>>> There are roughly 300 of us (order of magnitude). Every now
and
> then,
> > >>>>
> > >>> there
> > >>>
> > >>>> are not enough of us to go around on everything on a timeline
that
> > meets
> > >>>> the legitimate need that you present here. We'll continue
to
work
on
> >>>>
> >>> this.
> >>>
> >>>> But, to clarify, no one ever said it was a "useful
practice" nor
did
> >>>>
> >>> anyone
> >>>
> >>>> suggest that it was generalized across the org.
> >>>>
> >>>> What I was wondering about in my previous email and now
reiterating
> in
> > >>>>
> > >>> this
> > >>>
> > >>>> one too, are people willing to grant their request: a bit of
time
> and
> > >>>>
> > >>> allow
> > >>>
> > >>>> for one person to return to work?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Does that seem like a way to move forward?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Warmly,
> > >>>> /a
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 2:50 PM, Tim Landscheidt <
> > >>>> tim(a)tim-landscheidt.de
> > >>>>
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Anna Stillwell <astillwell(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> […]
> > >>>>>> I also hear that the pause on the interactive work is
temporary.
>
I’ve
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> heard
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> them request time. I am comfortable granting that request,
but
no
> > one
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> is
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> required to agree with me. They’ve also said that the
person
with
> the
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> most
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> information is on vacation. As someone who has seen
employees
go
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> through
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> considerable stress in the last years, the entire
executive
team
is
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> working
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> to establish some cultural standards around supporting
vacations.
> We
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> want
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> people here to feel comfortable taking proper vacations
and
> sometimes
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> that
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> can even need to happen in a crisis. People often plan
their
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> vacations
> > >>>
> > >>>> well
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> in advance and may not know that something tricky will
come
up.
> Just
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> so
> > >>>
> > >>>> you
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> understand one bias I bring to this conversation.
> > >>>>>> […]
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> I concur with DJ in his initial mail that this is not a
use-
> > >>>>> ful practice, and I doubt very much that it relieves
employ-
> > >>>>> ees' stress. It conveys the organizational
expectation that
> > >>>>> employees are SPOFs without any backup. An employee
should
> > >>>>> not experience their time off as a period where his work
> > >>>>> load is just temporarily buffered until his return, but
> > >>>>> where colleagues will step in and take care of business.
> > >>>>> Especially such a major decision like "pausing"
a team
> > >>>>> should not depend on the inner thoughts of one employee,
but
> > >>>>> be backed and explainable by others.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Tim
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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> > >>>>> Unsubscribe:
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> > >>>>>
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> unsubscribe>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> "If you have knowledge, let others light their candles in
it." -
> > >>>> Margaret
> > >>>> Fuller
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Anna Stillwell
> > >>>> Director of Culture
> > >>>> Wikimedia Foundation
> > >>>> 415.806.1536
> > >>>> *www.wikimediafoundation.org <http://www.
wikimediafoundation.org
*
>>>>
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>
>
> --
> "If you have knowledge, let others light their candles in it." -
Margaret
> > Fuller
> >
> > Anna Stillwell
> > Director of Culture
> > Wikimedia Foundation
> > 415.806.1536
> > *www.wikimediafoundation.org <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org>*
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