Sorry, we already have chapters-list (that did not had a have flux) that is
"private", and the knowledge there (I know, barely nothing) could be used
to the Aff, but it's private... The volume of discussions demanding an
opacity is... none! Documents will not be shared at mailing lists, and
problems must not be hidden from the "public".
This privates clubs are not coherent to values of Wikimedia Movement.
On 21 October 2015 at 00:27, Craig Franklin <cfranklin(a)halonetwork.net>
wrote:
Hi All,
One thing I think that is missing from this discussion is that if people
want to collaborate internally, they will collaborate internally. If there
isn't a mailing list available to do that, it will simply be done through
other means, be that private email, instant messaging, etcetera. If
affiliates want a place to communicate with each other without the glare of
publicity, they will have one, and saying "No" to this request won't force
them into some form of radical transparency.
Cheers,
Craig
On 21 October 2015 at 08:00, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Ow yes, I remember a affiliate specific issue
that was not handled
appropriate by some users from outside any affiliate.
And also this discussion here doesn't give a comfortable feeling (in my
opinion) to affiliates to do (always) a public discussion. If I as
affiliate member, want to have feedback from my colleagues, I am not
waiting for a hostile environment.
The problem here as well is that people with certain tasks, like running
an
affiliate, do have the need for communication
with people with the same
task. That is the basic reason for setting up a mailing list. If you
can't
imagine why people with the same task should
communicate internally, it
certainly should not up to you to decide due a lack of experience.
Years ago I could not imagine why certain people with a certain task
wanted
to communicate with each other internally, until
I came in that position
myself. If I want feedback in how other affiliates do certain things, I
am
not waiting for other people to scare those
affiliates away with their
messages.
And by the way, having a way to communicate internally (like a closed
mailing list) does not create a walled garden away from the community.
The thing that does create a walled garden away from the community is by
saying that some people are separate because they have a certain task.
The
"we versus them" thoughts.
And what is called a "community" is much much larger than the small
amount
of people on the mailing list, that is typically
biased as result of hard
discussions that occur from time to time.
Romaine
2015-10-19 20:54 GMT+02:00 Ed Erhart <the.ed17(a)gmail.com>om>:
> You've set up a strawman argument, Greg, and your solution is
suboptimal.
This is a
community issue, as SJ correctly notes, and it should be
discussed with the community. Leaving it private "for now" and polling
the
> list affiliates (or going back to a virtually unknown Meta page) is
going
to result
in the list staying closed—do we really believe that anyone
there
is going to vote to publicize their own
discussions?
Are there specific examples of these "affiliate-specific issues"
occurring
> in the past? There are very few things that I can think of that should
be
> private, and one of those is privacy issues,
which shouldn't be
discussed
on any
mailing lists (open or closed). Leaks can and do happen.
If a chapter needs private advice "on discussing an issue with the
broader
> community", they might want to look into breaking down the walled
garden
they're already in.
--Ed
On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 2:21 PM, Gregory Varnum <
gregory.varnum(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
There has already been discussion amongst some
affiliates about this
issue
> (including one on Meta-Wiki) - which is where this comes from.
>
> I suggest we leave it private for now and see what the affiliates on
the
list
would like to do.
I disagree with your sentiment that none of the 10 points require
privacy.
> One of them is discussing affiliate-specific issues - which might
include
> financial or privacy issues facing an
affiliates, an interaction with
the
> WMF, or advice on discussing an issue with
the broader community. My
> understanding is that there is a fear people may be more reserved in
> discussing topics if their comments are up for public discussion.
>
> If private lists or wikis were a new concept, I think the expectation
> might be something more fair to proceed with. However, there are
several
private
lists already in use, and as stated, this is in response to
requests from affiliates. That request included that the list be made
private, which seems reasonable.
Ultimately, I do not feel comfortable making this decision for the
affiliates, and since they initially requested it be private, I would
like
to respect that and allow them to discuss it
more.
I agree that having a discussion about how we achieve transparency is
worth doing. However, starting that discussion (or restarting it I
suppose)
> by imposing a new measure that was specifically not wanted by the
target
> audience of that resource is not the best
way to move things forward.
The
> end result would likely be that they wind up
not using the list as
much,
or
> create a separate list to fulfill their initial request. I would like
to
> > avoid that.
> >
> > -greg
> >
> >
> > > On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:56 PM, Sam Klein <sjklein(a)hcs.harvard.edu>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > +1 for public archives to start. Private lists are almost never
made
> > > public later, even where
there's no need for privacy.
> > >
> > > A more transparent alternative is to make any list
publicly-archived
> >
(archives world-readable, even if membership and ability to post to
the
> > > list is restricted), while setting it up and discussing its
purpose.
> If
> > > list members have specific uses that would require privacy, that
> purpose
> > > can drive a decision to make it private. Then at least those
founding
> > > discussions and the reason for
list privacy are visible to others.
> > >
> > > The converse doesn't happen. The only people whose voices count
in a
> >
decision to make a list public are generally those already on the
list.
> > > And they have access, so they have no pressing need to review
whether
its
> > archives should be public.
> >
> > Gregory Varnum writes:
> >> the whole point of creating it would be defeated.
> >
> > Well, Carlos mentioned 10 uses for the list, none of which need
private
> > > discussion. It sounds like you're saying an 11th is "encouraging
> > affiliates
> > > who don't currently write about their work and experiences, to do
so"
> and
> > > you think a significant number will only do so if their messages
are
> not
> > > publicly visible or archived.
> > >
> > > The downside is that you defined the list very broadly, also
> encouraging
> > > people who currently write about their work publicly to start using
> this
> > > new list: so now those thoughts will be lost to the larger
community
> forever. And the majority of outreach projects,
event organizers,
local
> communities, and groups (which aren't
interested in going through a
formal
> recognition process) will be walled out.
>
> SJ
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Gregory Varnum <
gregory.varnum(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Our current plan is to bring this up with the list once there is a
good
> >> number of people on it.
> >>
> >> Given that the list is for affiliates, our feeling is that it is
best
> for
> >> them to decide how they would like to use the list. If a structure
is
>>
imposed on them, it is less likely they will use the list, and the
whole
> >> point of creating it would be defeated. Since there were requests
for
> the
> >> list to be private, it seemed easier to start from that point and
make
> >> changes based on the consensus of
those we hope will utilize the
list
> > most.
> > >>
> > >> -greg (User:Varnent)
> > >> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:10 PM, Ed Erhart <the.ed17(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>>>
> >>> I too question the need for a private mailing list. We should
require
> >> more
> >>> than a just a "consistent request" before we reduce
transparency
and
> > >> create
> > >>> yet another walled garden away from the community.
> > >>>
> > >>> --Ed
> > >>> On Oct 16, 2015 12:07 AM, "Pine W"
<wiki.pine(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Got it. Thanks Varnent.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Regarding the privacy question: I'm sort of thinking that
if we
> really
> > >> want
> > >>>> to keep the new list private for legal or other reasons, it
should
be
> >> run
> >>>> outside of WMF servers like the chapters list is. On the other
hand,
> if
> >> the
> >>>> purpose of the new list is to facilitate discussion among
affiliates
> > in
> > >> a
> > >>>> smaller and less public group while still being open to WMF
> employees
> > >> to a
> > >>>> limited degree, then the hosting proposed here makes sense.
> > Personally,
> > >> I
> > >>>> get the sense that the affiliate and WMF relationships have
> generally
> > >>>> (there are exceptions) warmed a bit over the past couple of
years
as
> > >>>> affiliate governance and leadership have evolved and as
WMF's
> > evaluation
> > >>>> capacity has improved, so I'm fine with the new design.
Thanks
for
>
>> working
> >>>> on this.
> >>>>
> >>>> Pine
> >>>> On Oct 15, 2015 8:55 PM, "Gregory Varnum" <
gregory.varnum(a)gmail.com
>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hey Pine,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As you know, AffCom started looking into this list after some
> >> discussions
> >>>>> with affiliates in Berlin, Wikimania, and at that page you
referred
> to.
> >>>> We
> >>>>> did talk with that list’s moderators about potentially reusing
that
> > >> list
> > >>>>> (largely why the creation of this list took awhile).
However,
> > >> ultimately,
> > >>>>> we decided to proceed with the creation of this list.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The old list is not on Wikimedia servers or officially
connected
to
> > >>>>> AffCom, so I cannot speak to its future. However, it has
becoming
> > >>>>> increasingly
inactive, is limited to chapters (so excludes a
> majority
> > >> of
> > >>>>> our affiliates), and not something we have promoted
recently.
My
>
>> personal
> >>>>> hope is that this new broader list replaces that one over time,
but
> > >> that
> > >>>> is
> > >>>>> not something we can “force” as it’s not a resource we
officially
>
help
> >>>>> manage.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -greg (User:Varnent)
> >>>>> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:19 PM, Pine W
<wiki.pine(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Carlos,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you clarify how this list relates to the existing chapters
mailing
>>>>>> list? (Also, please see the discussion at
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_l…
>
>>>>>> ).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Pine
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Carlos M. Colina <
> >>>>> maorx(a)wikimedia.org.ve>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Dear all,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On behalf of the Affiliations Committe, I am pleased to
introduce
> > the
> > >>>>>>> launch of the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list,
which is
> > basically a
> > >>>>> place
> > >>>>>>> for all the affiliates (chapters, thematic
organizations,
user
>
>> groups)
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>>> discuss issues related to affiliates, make
announcements to
other
> > >>>>>>> affiliates, and collaborate on activities and
community-wide
> > events.
> > >>>> The
> > >>>>>>> idea is to help facilitate the dialogue affiliates
across our
> > >>>> movement,
> > >>>>>>> plus collaborative discussions like community-wide
activities,
> > joint
> > >>>>>>> edit-a-thons, regional conferences, blog/report
posts, or
other
>
>>>>>>> communications from affiliates.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Each Wikimedia movement affiliate is allocated three
spots on
the
> > >>>>> mailing
> > >>>>>>> list. All affiliates may contact the Affiliations
Committee
to
>> request
>>>>>>> additional spots if needed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please find a bit more information on Meta:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/Affiliates_ma…
>
>>>>>>> and do not hesitate contacting us if you have further
questions.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Regards,
> > >>>>>>> Carlos
> > >>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü
alijunakalirua jee
> > >>>> wayuukanairua
> > >>>>>>> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka.
Ayatashi
waya
>>>> junain."
>>>>>>> Carlos M. Colina
>>>>>>> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
>>>>>
www.wikimedia.org.ve
>>>>>>> <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
>>>>>>> Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
>>>>>>> Phone: +972-52-4869915
>>>>>>> Twitter: @maor_x
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> > > --
> > > Samuel Klein @metasj w:user:sj +1 617
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4266
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