I am not familiar with your name on enwiki, so I
looked you up, and find that you have a grand total of 11 edits on all projects since
2015.
This is part of the problem right here. This isn't our project and we
shouldn't be trying to exclude people from our community. Wikipedia
belongs to everyone.
On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 9:53 AM Peter Southwood
<peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> Thrapostibongles,
I am not familiar with your name on enwiki, so I
looked you up, and find that you have a grand total of 11 edits on all projects since
2015.
> While it is possible that you have a long and distinguished edit history
under a previous name or as an IP editor, it leads me to wonder just how familiar you are
with the customs and culture of enwiki, which I freely agree are non-optimal, but have
evolved to sort of work in an environment which was predicted to be impossible. Yet here
we are, dysfunctionally surviving when we are theoretically long extinct. Our
dysfunctional mores function as they do and evolve through surviving and occasional
modification by consensus of those who care enough to take part in the process, within the
environment in which we work. We are somewhere between an anarchy and a community, and we
do not generally appreciate pontification from outsiders, which is what you appear to be,
and to a large extent, what we consider WMF to be. It is a problem. If WMF chooses to rule
by fiat it will have interesting consequences. So far they have mostly avoided that, and
when they have it has not ended well. If you consider yourself an expert in something
relevant I invite you to show evidence of your credentials. Otherwise we will take your
comments as we do those of any other unproven internet commentator.
> This is just my personal take, I do not presume to represent anyone else. You are as
free to ignore me as I am to ignore you, but engaging in this discussion has its
consequences, and one of them is to be questioned.
> Cheers,
> Peter Southwood
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of
Mister Thrapostibongles
> Sent: 12 June 2019 09:06
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block
>
> Yaroslav,
>
> I think it's reasonably clear that the English Wikipedia community and its
> community structures, such as its Arbitration Committee, and processes are
> not capable of maintaining a productive, harassment-free environment for
> the volunteer workers. For example, they have consistently failed, after
> several attempts, to handle the case of a volunteer who used the word
> "Cxxx" about a fellow worker, and the community has agreed that telling
> others to "Fxxx off" is acceptable. These are symptoms of a dysfunctional
> community, which tolerates behaviour that is unacceptable in any collegial
> working environment, and it is right that the Foundation should step in.
>
> Thrapostibongles
>
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 4:56 PM Yaroslav Blanter <ymbalt(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The point made by pretty much everyone is not that Fram should or should
> > not be banned, but that the process in this case should have followed the
> > standard dispute resolution avenues, More specifically, the case should
> > have been communicated to the Arbitration Committee, whose members did sign
> > the non-disclosure agreement.
> >
> > This is different from the past cases when users were banned by WMF, since
> > in this case it was made clear the case is based on on-wiki open activity
> > of Fram (and, specifically, only on the English Wikipedia). The on-wiki
> > activity is subject to the community policies.
> >
> > To be clear, I am not a friend of Fram, and in the past supported desysop
> > on a number of occasions.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Yaroslav
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 5:46 PM Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup(a)gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > People who oppose the ban: Are you aware of all aspects and things Fram
> > has
> > > done? Do you have the full picture? It's really saddening to see how
fast
> > > people jump to conclusion in page mentioned in the email. I personally,
> > > don't know what happened so I neither can support or oppose the ban.
As
> > > simple as that.
> > >
> > > So what should be done IMO. If enwiki wants to know more, a community
> > body
> > > can ask for more information, if body satisfy two things:
> > > - They had signed NDA not to disclose the case
> > > - They are trusted by the community
> > >
> > > I think the only body can sorta work with this is stewards but not sure
> > > (Does ArbCom NDA'ed?)
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 3:58 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> > > paulosperneta(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Lack of transparency from the WMF, whatelse is new.
> > > > I'm currently under a funding ban secretly decided (by who?) based
on a
> > > > false accusation, without providing any evidence. Until now I'm
waiting
> > > for
> > > > an explanation from the WMF. So, this sort of attitude doesn't
surprise
> > > me
> > > > at all.
> > > > It is very unfortunate that the WMF apparently thrives in this kind
of
> > > > medieval obscurity, the opposite of the values of the Wikimedia
> > Movement.
> > > > Matter for Roles & Reponsibilities.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Paulo
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Benjamin Ikuta <benjaminikuta(a)gmail.com> escreveu no dia terça,
> > > 11/06/2019
> > > > à(s) 05:45:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for this.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm glad to see I'm not the only one dismayed by the
unilateralism
> > and
> > > > > lack of transparency.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Jun 10, 2019, at 8:25 PM, Techman224
<techman224(a)techman224.ca>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Forwarding to WIkimedia-l since WikiEN-l is relatively
dead.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Since this message, an Arbcom member (SilkTork) stated that
they
> > > > weren't
> > > > > consulted, nor did this action was the result of Arbcom
forwarding a
> > > > > concern to the office. [1]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The only non-response excuse from the WMF [2] was that
"local
> > > > > communities consistently struggle to uphold not just their own
> > > autonomous
> > > > > rules but the Terms of Use, too.” even though there were no
> > complaints
> > > > > on-wiki nor to Arbcom privately.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The on-wiki discussion is taking place at the Bureaucrats
and the
> > > > Arbcom
> > > > > noticeboards.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#User:Fra…
> > > > > <
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats'_noticeboard#User:F…
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticebo…
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [1]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Commi…
> > > > > <
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Commi…
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [2]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#Statemen…
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Techman224
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Begin forwarded message:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> From: George Herbert <george.herbert(a)gmail.com>
> > > > > >> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block
> > > > > >> Date: June 10, 2019 at 8:54:34 PM CDT
> > > > > >> To: English Wikipedia
<wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> > > > > >> Reply-To: English Wikipedia
<wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> In case you're not following on-wiki - Office
S&T blocked English
> > > > > Wikipedia
> > > > > >> user / administrator Fram for a year and desysopped,
for
> > unspecified
> > > > > >> reasons in the Office purview. There was a brief
statement here
> > > from
> > > > > >> Office regarding it which gave no details other than
that normal
> > > > policy
> > > > > and
> > > > > >> procedures for Office actions were followed, which under
normal
> > > > > >> circumstances preclude public comments.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#User:Fra…
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Several people on Arbcom and board have commented
they're making
> > > > private
> > > > > >> inquiries under normal reporting and communication
channels, due
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > >> oddity and essentially uniqueness of the action.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> There was an initial surge of dismay which has mellowed
IMHO into
> > > "Ok,
> > > > > >> responsible people following up".
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I understand the sensitivity of some of the topics under
Office
> > > > actions,
> > > > > >> having done OTRS and other various had-to-stay-private
stuff
> > myself
> > > at
> > > > > >> times in the past. A high profile investigation target
is most
> > > > unusual
> > > > > but
> > > > > >> not unheard of.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I did send email to Fram earlier today asking if they
had any
> > public
> > > > > >> comment, no reply as yet.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> --
> > > > > >> -george william herbert
> > > > > >> george.herbert(a)gmail.com
> > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > >> WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > > > >> WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > > > > >>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > > > > >
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> > >
> > > --
> > > Amir (he/him)
> > > _______________________________________________
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