Gerard, Katherine and Wikimedians,
Am wondering if the Wikimedia Foundation is in Google for NonProfits which
is holding an online training for managing volunteers on September 10th -
On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 10:48 PM Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Hoi,
Research on the acquisition of new volunteers shows that most new people
drop out because of perceived hostility. This excercise of formulating a
strategy for 2030 aims to address this among other objectives. It follows
that when new volunteers that stick is an important objective, the status
quo cannot be maintained. When people threaten to leave because the status
quo, their power base is threatened, they are welcome to take a leave of
absence and as Jan-Bart said in them days we hope they will reconsider.
Mind you, I am not a fan-boy of the new strategy. I was in Stockholm and I
made several points where I think the strategy fails.
The problem that I have with "advocates for the community" is that like
lawyers they do not necessarily self include and certainly take no
responsiblity. Their point would be more clear when they say "I will leave
our community because... ". Our community will be better off when some bad
apples but "pillars of the community" leave. Our community would be better
off when we argue in stead of state opinions. Let's be on point and to the
point.
Thanks,
GerardM
On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 22:39, Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Gerard
A good point. The "community" in one sense is simply the collection of
all
those people who happen over any given time
period to be working for the
WMF for free. In another sense, it is the structures and cultures found
on
the various projects. I think my question could
best have been phrased
in
terms of the first meaning -- that is, does the
WMF Board expect that
after
these recommendations are enacted, and, as we may
reasonably predict, a
large proportion of the current volunteers cease their invlvement, that
there will be a sufficient number of continuing and new volunteers to
sustain the projects in the way the WMF desires. It seems odd that the
Board would not have even begun to consider this question, but it is of
course for them and not for us to decide.
Jeff
On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 7:10 PM Gerard Meijssen <
gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com
wrote:
> Hoi,
> Your notion of community is what I question. It is in your refusal of
> accepting that English Wikipedia is not a safe place, in your notion
that
> the WMF failed, you fail to accept that it
is the WMF that is the
arbiter
> of last resort. You also fail to appreciate
that the Wikimedia
Foundation
is not a
democracy. Only some of the board members are elected by the
community. The notion that elected officials are beholden to the
electorate
> has been spectacularly put on display in the United States so no they
are
not
beholden to you nor me.
"We" do not consider facts, we hide behind opinions. The result is that
our
> projects could do so much better once opinions are left for what they
are
> in the face of proven facts. We claim our
references are important but
> references to our behaviour have been reduced to who said what, where
and
when.
Maybe the recommendations of working groups are not better in your
opinion
nor mine. In the end it does not matter because
there is so much that
needs
an overhaul that defensive postures are exactly
the behaviour that is
best
to be disregarded. What is needed is accepting
the need for change,
consider what the recommendations are and consider them along the lines
of
how we could improve upon them.
Thanks
GerardM
On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 19:20, Peter Southwood <
peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net>
wrote:
> Gerard,
> It is not clear who you are addressing here, but I am going to assume
it
> is Benjamin, who made the original claim. It
is a fair question, and
some
> clarification would be welcome.
> English Wikipedia may have failed to provide a safe environment, but
the
WMF has
failed possibly even more "spectacularly", and the
recommendations
> of the Working Group do not appear to be likely to be any better or
more
> > effective.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org]
On
> > Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> > Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2019 6:29 PM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations
are
> > here!
> >
> > Hoi,
> > May I ask what you mean with "the" community? If anything the
Wikimedia
> > community exists in some 300 parts and
every parts has as many
distinct
> > opinions. There are essential conflicts
of interest, by some there
is a
> > sense of entitlement, either based on
possession or based on promises
> made.
> >
> > In many ways, what Jan-Bart wrote at the time makes as much sense
then
as
> > it made now. The model of self governance within a project works up
to
a
point but
when it is then pointed out to it where it fails to meet
expectations, like it does when it is tasked to provide a safe
environment,
> it fails spectacularly. There is plenty of evidence showing how the
well
fortified
positions the English Wikipedia community among others has
taken,
> fails our readers in providing the best possible quality.
>
> So what community and why should we bother when it is not even that
great
> as an abstraction.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 17:48, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Benjamin,
> > Has the board or any member of the board made any statement
suggesting
> > that the board might overrule the
community in this matter?
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org]
On
> > Behalf Of Benjamin Ikuta
> > Sent: 24 August 2019 07:12
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations
are
> > here!
> >
> >
> >
> > It is disturbing that you would even consider overriding the
community
> in
> > > such a massive way.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Aug 23, 2019, at 9:44 PM, James Heilman <jmh649(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> > >
> > > > The board will be discussing this of course. We do not have a
group
> >
> position at this point in time.
> > >
> > > J
> > >
> > > On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:47 PM Jeff Hawke <
geoffey.hawke(a)gmail.com
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> James
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks for that. As a member of the Board, would you clarify
the
> >
Board's
> > >> position on whether it is prepared to see the final
Recommendations
> > > >> implemented irrespective of any disagreement from the community?
> > > >>
> > > >> Jeff
> > > >>
> > > >> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:05 PM James Heilman <
jmh649(a)gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> I for one do not agree with Jan-Bart's prior position.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> James
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:40 AM Jeff Hawke <
> geoffey.hawke(a)gmail.com>
> > > >>> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> Paulo,
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the
Wikimedia
> > > community
> > > >>>> does not approve some of the recommendations". You
may recall
> that
> > > >> just
> > > >>>> five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF
Board,
> >>> expressed
> >>>> the opinion
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)&a…
> >
>>>> over
> > >>>> a much less dramatic change.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> All of this is going to require change, change that might
not
be
> > > >>>> acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be
a
part
> of
> > > >> this
> > > >>>> next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you
decide
to
> > >> take a
> > >>>> wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so,
you
> have
> > >> to
> > >>>> let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that
next
> step
> > >>> when
> > >>>> needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that
you
> > > will
> > > >>>> return when the time is right.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position
today.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Jeff
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
<
> > > >>>> paulosperneta(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> If I've well understood the timeline, all input
from the
> Wikimedia
> > > >>>>> community ceases in mid September. Then it's all
defined by
the
> WGs
> > > >>> 8and
> > > >>>>> their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the
BoT
around
> >
>>> December.
> > >>>>> Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia
community
will
> > > >> only
> > > >>> be
> > > >>>>> dealing with those recommendations again when they
are
already
in
> the
> > >>>>> process of implementation.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> It's quite easy to predict that things will not get
pretty if
the
> > >>>> Wikimedia
> > >>>>> community does not approve some of the recommendations
that
pass
> all
> > >>> the
> > >>>>> way till implementation phase.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Paulo
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Nicole Ebber <nicole.ebber(a)wikimedia.de> escreveu no
dia
quinta,
> > >>>>> 22/08/2019
> > >>>>> à(s) 11:58:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Dear all,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been
great
seeing
> so
> > > >>> much
> > > >>>>>> attention on movement strategy and collaborative
efforts for
> > > >> building
> > > >>>> our
> > > >>>>>> future. Here are a couple of follow up responses
and
> > > >> clarifications.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> DRAFTS
> > > >>>>>> As pointed out in my previous email, the
documents we
recently
> >
>> shared
> > >>>> are
> > >>>>>> recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not
complete,
but
> > > >>>> working
> > > >>>>>> documents that are currently being refined by the
working
> groups.
> > > >>> Some
> > > >>>>>> answers still read like stubs that are longing
for further
> > > >>> development,
> > > >>>>>> others are very detailed and will become more
focused over
the
> > next
> > > >>> few
> > > >>>>>> weeks. We still decided to publish everything at
once, to
give
> >
>>>> everyone a
> > >>>>>> full picture of the variety of topics and offer an
insight
into
> > >>>> multiple
> > >>>>>> progress levels.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I would also like to reiterate that movement values,
priorities
> > and
> > > >>>>>> community conversation processes are high on our
radar. A
> > > >>>> recommendation
> > > >>>>> to
> > > >>>>>> change the existing license model, for example,
will not
just
go
> > > >>>> through
> > > >>>>> a
> > > >>>>>> quick approval process, but lead to a deeper
exploration
into
the
> > >>>>> reasoning
> > >>>>>> behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and
what
could
> be
> > >>>> ways
> > >>>>> to
> > >>>>>> mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather
suggest
to
> > > >> look
> > > >>>> into
> > > >>>>>> different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge
is
included
in
> > > >> the
> > > >>>>>> Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further
consultation,
> > > >>> instead
> > > >>>> of
> > > >>>>>> rushing to a quick fix.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> INTEGRATION
> > > >>>>>> The working groups are taking input that they
gathered at
> > Wikimania
> > > >>> and
> > > >>>>> via
> > > >>>>>> different movement channels and incorporating it
into the
next
> > > >>>> iteration
> > > >>>>> of
> > > >>>>>> their recommendations. These documents will then
serve as a
> basis
> > > >> for
> > > >>>>>> harmonization across working groups.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> The input that we are gathering comes in on
different
levels.
> Some
> > > >> of
> > > >>>> it
> > > >>>>>> targets structural level changes or emphasizes
specific
> principles
> > > >> or
> > > >>>>>> values, while other feedback is more on the
programmatic
side
or
> > >>>> already
> > >>>>>> addressing implementation. Structural input will
continue to
be
> > > >>>>> considered
> > > >>>>>> in forthcoming iterations of the recommendations.
Programmatic
> > > >> input
> > > >>>> will
> > > >>>>>> be documented and taken forward to inform the
implementation.
> >
>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> TIMELINE
> > >>>>>> We wanted to get the English drafts out as soon as
possible
and
> the
> > >>>>>> translations on a rolling basis, so that Wikimania
participants
> > > >> could
> > > >>>>> read
> > > >>>>>> and prepare to engage in person. Over the next
few weeks, we
> will
> > > >> do
> > > >>>>>> targeted, public outreach to online project
communities in
> > multiple
> > > >>>>>> languages. We are soliciting feedback to shape
the overall
> > > >> direction
> > > >>> of
> > > >>>>> the
> > > >>>>>> recommendations through mid-September. Working
Groups are
> already
> > > >>>> working
> > > >>>>>> on identifying gaps and overlaps with other
groups to
prepare
for
> > >>>>>> harmonization.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> At the harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22
September, we
will
> > >>> bring
> > >>>> 3
> > >>>>>> representatives from each Working Group together to
work to
> > >> develop a
> > >>>>> more
> > >>>>>> coherent set of recommendations. The group will be
supported
by
> > > >>>>>> facilitators and external advice, as well as the
core team.
We
> > have
> > > >>>> also
> > > >>>>>> invited María Sefidari, Katherine Maher, Ryan
Merkley,
Valerie
> >
>>> D’Costa
> > >>>>>> (Wikimedia Foundation) and Abraham Taherivand
(Wikimedia
> > >> Deutschland)
> > >>>> to
> > >>>>>> the sprint. They contribute expertise and experience
from
their
> > >> work
> > >>>> and
> > >>>>>> leadership in the movement and beyond. They will be
active
> > >> listeners
> > >>>> and
> > >>>>>> can challenge recommendations by pointing out risks
and
> > >> consequences
> > >>> on
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>>>> organizational and movement level. They also
participate as
the
> > > >>>>>> representatives of organizations that may be
impacted by the
> > > >>>>>> recommendations. Involving them early is
important so they
can
> >
>>>> anticipate
> > >>>>>> any possible changes for their staff and programs, and
plan
for
> > >>>>>>
implementation.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Our aim is to release recommendations in November
2019, and
> present
> > >>>> them
> > >>>>> to
> > >>>>>> the Board of Trustees for approval in December. We
will need
the
> > > >>> legal
> > > >>>>>> authority of the board for some of the
recommendations,
while
> > > >> others
> > > >>>> will
> > > >>>>>> then be further delegated to other community
mechanisms and
> > > >>> structures
> > > >>>>> for
> > > >>>>>> approval or further consultation.[1] There will
be
additional
> > > >> public
> > > >>>>>> consultation activities around implementation
that will be
> > > >> discussed
> > > >>>> and
> > > >>>>>> owned across the movement.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> WORKING GROUPS
> > > >>>>>> We have chosen the working group model to ensure
that the
> process
> > > >>> that
> > > >>>>>> embarks to make significant changes to our
movement
structures
> is
> > > >>> owned
> > > >>>>> by
> > > >>>>>> the community. Members of the nine working group
were
selected
> by
> > a
> > > >>>>>> steering committee and the groups were
established in July
> > 2019.[2]
> > > >>>> Group
> > > >>>>>> members come from different parts of the
movement, e.g. from
> > > >>> different
> > > >>>>>> regions and languages, from individual
contributors and
> organized
> > > >>>> groups,
> > > >>>>>> and with different volunteer and staff roles,
incl.
Wikimedia
> >
>>>> Foundation
> > >>>>>> staff and board.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> The groups are doing an amazing job. With many of them
being
> > >>>> volunteers,
> > >>>>> or
> > >>>>>> doing this work on top of their regular jobs, creating
the
draft
>
>>>>>> recommendations is a huge achievement. They first needed to
form,
> > >>> storm
> > >>>>> and
> > >>>>>> norm as a group and figure out how to best work
together
across
> > > >> time
> > > >>>>> zones,
> > > >>>>>> languages, and contexts. They then took a deep
dive into the
> > > >>> substance
> > > >>>>> and
> > > >>>>>> identified the scope of their work and the
specific
questions
to
> > > >>> tackle
> > > >>>>> for
> > > >>>>>> us as a movement to advance in our strategic
direction. The
> > > >>> development
> > > >>>>> of
> > > >>>>>> recommendations has started in spring this year,
and – aside
> from
> > > >>> many
> > > >>>>>> online calls, asynchronous work and scarce
in-person
meetings
–
> > > >>>> included
> > > >>>>>> incorporating community conversations and
external
expertise.
It
> > is
> > > >>>> only
> > > >>>>> to
> > > >>>>>> the hard work of these groups that we finally
have something
> > > >> tangible
> > > >>>> in
> > > >>>>>> front of us that we can all react to and help
further
improve
to
>
>>> build
> >>>>> our
> >>>>>> future together.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Please join us in thanking, celebrating and supporting
them,
rather
> >>>> than
> >>>>>> rushing to conclusions or arguing over details. Please
contribute
> >> in
> >>>>> good
> >>>>>> faith, and in a constructive way.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Let me know if you have further questions.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Best wishes,
> >>>>>> Nicole
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> [1]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/July…
> >>>>>> [2]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working…
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 at 13:13, Yaroslav Blanter
<
> ymbalt(a)gmail.com>
> > > >>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> And this is the core problem of the whole
process (which
has
> been
> > > >>>>> pointed
> > > >>>>>>> out by multiple people from the very
beginning)
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Cheers
> > > >>>>>>> Yaroslav
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 12:27 PM Jeff Hawke
<
> > > >>> geoffey.hawke(a)gmail.com
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Andy
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy
Mabbett <
> > > >>>>>> andy(a)pigsonthewing.org.uk>
> > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff
Hawke <
> > > >>>> geoffey.hawke(a)gmail.com>
> > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> the WG then collate them and
decide the final form of
the
> >
>>>>>>>>>> recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> This seems to be missing a rather crucial
intermediate
step;
> > >>> the
> > >>>>> one
> > >>>>>>>>> where the recommendations are accepted, or
not, by the
wider
>
>>>>>> Wikimedia
> >>>>>>>>> community.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> That step is not mentioned at
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequen…
> >
>>>>>>>> ?
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Jeff
> > >>>>>>>>
_______________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > >>>>>>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > >>>>>>>>
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> > > >>>>>>>> New messages to:
Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > > >>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
> > > >>>>>
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> > > >>>>>>>>
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> > > >>>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >>>>>>>
_______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> >
>>>>>>>
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> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> --
> > >>>>>> Nicole Ebber
> > >>>>>> Adviser International Relations
> > >>>>>> Program Manager Wikimedia 2030 Movement Strategy
> > >>>>>> Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 |
10963
> Berlin
> > >>>>>> Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
> > >>>>>>
https://wikimedia.de
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Unsere Vision ist eine Welt, in der alle Menschen am
Wissen
der
> > > >>>>> Menschheit
> > > >>>>>> teilhaben, es nutzen und mehren können. Helfen
Sie uns
dabei!
> > > >>>>>>
https://spenden.wikimedia.de
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Wikimedia Deutschland — Gesellschaft zur
Förderung Freien
> Wissens
> > > >> e.
> > > >>> V.
> > > >>>>>> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
> > > >> Berlin-Charlottenburg
> > > >>>>> unter
> > > >>>>>> der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt
durch das
> Finanzamt
> > > >>> für
> > > >>>>>> Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer
27/029/42207.
> > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> --
> > > >>> James Heilman
> > > >>> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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