On May 18, 2020, at 5:04 PM, Gnangarra
<gnangarra(a)gmail.com> wrote:
it all comes back to "Who is our audience" and "How do we need/want to
engage with them"
If you start on the mainpage, follow the about link, then follow to scope
there is no clear just a vague anyone...
I think we need to be honest in the assessment of our true audience, thats
basically the WMF projects therefore our purpose is "to make freely
licensed media accessible across all movement projects"
Like the movement strategy process we need to dissect what we are trying to
achieve and how we can get there, and then come up with a solution to
address what we already have so its all consistent. At the moment we are
developing differing concepts, tools, policies in isolation .
On Mon, 18 May 2020 at 23:34, Alessandro
Marchetti via Wikimedia-l <
wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
Yes, structured data are far from perfect. I am sorry about it because I
know their potential but they need to grow on a difficult soil and this
slows down. We expected that, unfortunately. You can't just use them
top-down, they need a bottom-up approach but we lack the right mentality of
engaged users to make it grow.
If you want to change and improve something right now with metadata, try
galleries before categories. They are quite useless at the moment, I see
some users are updating them but they are really poor. It was very frequent
to finf low resolution files still there, they are not standardized as
well. Since they have limited structural role, working on that should be
easier.
Il lunedì 18 maggio 2020, 17:20:31 CEST, Phil Nash via Wikimedia-l <
wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> ha scritto:
The search has to be done before the category structure is addressed,
even if that needs to be done. How else would you compartmentalise, what 32
million images?
And structured data has to be fixed before either. The reason is that
structured data does not have unique names, and I don't think people relate
to the Q numbers as well as names of things they know already. It's
actually very much worse than that because these automated "Depicts"
suggestions do not appear to know about Commons categories such that they
suggest an obvious statement.
We all know it's maybe broken, but I don't see this as a fix, even if we
run two systems in parallel until the structured data is (a) mature (b)
sensible and (c) throughly reliable.
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----- Original Message -----
From: Gnangarra <gnangarra(a)gmail.com>
Reply-To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: 18/05/2020 15:53:35
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Commons
________________________________________________________________________________
I think we could start to make the category structure obsolete and focus
on structured data, there's already bots running basic structured data that
could be ramped up. and Having Wikidata game(
https://tools.wmflabs.org/wikidata-game/) thats instead focused on whats
in
a file & its description, that would capture more structured data including
licensing. It'd help teach people more about including structured data
62million files is a lot to process so it'll take time but we can run
competitions like 1lib1ref, encourage affiliates to focus on doing Commons
structured data game as outreach events, this will teach people about
licensing, and about what makes a good photograph because everyone knows a
30px by 30px photo is crap we can have structured data items less than
100,200,500px on the long edge.
Next step would be to look at the search function, add in an advance option
with a few optional fields to fill in that searches the structured data.
The advance search option could then sort by pixel size giving the biggest
images first.
On Mon, 18 May 2020 at 22:28, Samuel Klein
<meta.sj(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Commons needs iterative workflows that tag problems and modify what
reuses
/ transfusions are supported, rather than making
everything a crude
delete/keep decision. Else it will always struggle w scaling to these
uses.
🌍🌏🌎🌑
On Mon., May 18, 2020, 9:48 a.m. Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l, <
wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
in the past "99% unproblematic" was
true, because most of the things
were
obvious and standard (panorama of towns, ancient
portraits), it's not
nowadays.
You can upload tons of unproblematic pictures because they are easy to
find, but you don't need them really. So they mostly clutter the
workflow.
There are a lot of images of kittens that we can
upload, good luck
categorizing them. Of course, you can switch to very specific projects
like
> "documenting all small rivers" but the core issue are also high-quality
> upload. And everything is potentially problematic there: the right of
an
important
person to privacy, the right of the manufacturer of an
instruments, how creative is the lighting of an object? if I upload an
image of a town it's probably a very nice one, taken by a competent
photographer who clearly show them on line as well. You are in a
dimension
where you need to study, learn, ask around, find
a balance. Instead we
have
> people acting randomly and superficially, because they do not care
about
the
long-term effect of their actions.
This impacts the maintenance of course, because very specific issues
requires sophisticated categories, processes and metadata. The effort
there
is quite high, you are always the first one to
arrive. the first one to
clean up,the first one to explain to a third party. If you add on that
more
> unnecessary stress than required, people reduce this job as much as
they
can as a
necessary balance. But that job has an important effect in the
overall maintenance, so at a certain point you start to see the effect
when
> it is not there.
>
> It's not a big surprise, we tried to explain this fact for years, but
the
> community is designed to ignore these aspects
and encourage other work
> attitudes. It's just like that.
>
>
> Il lunedì 18 maggio 2020, 15:28:51 CEST, Yaroslav Blanter <
> ymbalt(a)gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
> To be fair, in most cases to use Commons for uploading files is
totally
> unproblematic as soon as one has basic
understanding of copyright. I am
> pretty sure 99% of my uploads can not be deleted (I had my files
> mass-nominated for deletion, once with the claim they are not mine, and
> once with the claim they are holiday photos and out of scope, but both
> cases admins were reasonably enough to speedy close the nominations).
Of
> course there are always potentially
problematic cases, for example I
can
> imagine for one could start requiring
"publication" dates for painting,
> which is copyright paranoia but some people take it seriously etc. But
if
> one uploads something sufficiently far from
the grey area it normally
> should be ok.
>
> (I am still a Commons admin, but I reduced my admin activity to a
minimum
and I am
not planning to increase the activity level).
Best
Yaroslav
On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 3:12 PM Ziko van Dijk <zvandijk(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Hello Alessandro,
> Thank you for your post and its insight. I recognized the same with
me: I
only make
use of Wikimedia Commons in lessons if I have enough time.
Also I
would introduce it only to students with a solid
knowledge of English.
Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
schrieb am Mo. 18. Mai 2020 um 13:08:
> In the end, it's more like inducing order from other projects than
caring
> about the order on Commons because there
clearly can't be with people
> acting the way they do.
This is a great observation! And this phenomenon contributes to the
on-going chaos, to the work-around-culture you need to adapt to if you
want
> to make use of Wikimedia Commons. :-(
>
> Kind regards
> Ziko
>
>
>
>
> They are also not caring for it: if you spend your time starting
>> unnecessary deletion procedures instead of cleaning up categories or
>> description, you obviously have your priority, so we also have ours.
>>
>
>> About the main page, we need to focus more on media files IMHO, and
of
>> course search is complicated but I am
sure metadata can improve it.
>>
>> A.
>> Il lunedì 18 maggio 2020, 11:33:46 CEST, Robert Myers <
>> robert.myers(a)wikimedia.org.au> ha scritto:
>>
>> Well some people do, but it is when they get trolled by other
> contributors
>> and/or overzealous Admin comes along and deletes the file. They
quickly
> lose
interest, in turn telling other people not to bother.
>
> I just had another lot of photographs tagged by a troll, in which an
Admin
> deletes (
>
>
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=File:R…
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=File:A…
>> ).
>> These have been on Commons for two + years, using the same camera
gear
I
> have used over the years. If it is enough for
me to give up on the
project,
> it would be the same for any other user but for a newbie it is
something
> that would make me run for the hills (depart
quickly as possible)!
>
> On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 1:07 PM Benjamin Ikuta <
benjaminikuta(a)gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anecdotally, it seems people sometimes don't upload their photos to
>>> Commons because they don't realize that the scope of Commons is
much
>>
broader than that of Wikipedia.
>>
>> Has there been, or should there be, any research into this, or why
people
>> don't contribute more broadly?
>>
>> ~Benjamin
>>
>>
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