While I would (and have) strongly opposed both threats and actual contacting of employerst of volunteers, I think the situation here is somewhat different.
Firstly WMF employees are not subject to community sanction insofar as their paid roles go. Secondly it is perfectlying normal to have an escalation path in case of difficulty in anthe public faxing role.
I am aware that the US has a culture far more prone to fire people first and ask questions later, than the UK, but I would hope that the WMF does not work like that.
On 25 Aug 2017 19:23, "Andrew Lih" andrew.lih@gmail.com wrote:
I'd like to second what Rob has expressed here. This list already suffers a very poor reputation within our community, even as it is positioned as an important part of our communications ecosystem.
Allowing participants to intimidate others and exact "in real life" consequences should be dealt with in the most severe manner. If we do not meatball:DefendEachOther, and deliver the basic safety needs of the list membership, how can we in good conscience keep this list running and encourage participation?
-Andrew
On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 12:12 PM, Robert Fernandez <wikigamaliel@gmail.com
wrote:
I am grateful that the moderators have taken some action, but I am disappointed that contacting a person's employer is not yet seen as an uncrossable line here.
Out of respect to your call for civility I will refrain from directly responding to the person in question despite his allegations against me. It is a mistake to frame this as a free speech issue. It is of course in the interests of a person engaging in bullying and harassing behavior to claim people are trying to suppress their powerful truths, but there is
no
reason we have to accept this duplicitous framing. The content of the message is immaterial, the behavior is the issue. Some people may see
this
as a grey area given that it was a Foundation employee, but I see it as a slippery slope. Seddon's job is almost certainly safe, but this might
not
be the case for the next victim. Will the poster in question decide
that I
am "bullying and harassing" him and attempt to contact my employer next?
Most of my fellow board members of my chapter are the employees of US government agencies or connected to the Foundation as an employee or a grant recipient. Given the unusual political climate in the US I worry that the former group are particularly vulnerable to harassment targeting their employment. (Media outlets favored by the current US presidential administration have targeted individual Wikimedia editors, including myself, in the past.) If participants on this list are allowed to engage in this sort of harassment without real consequence, I will advise that
my
chapter and its board members and volunteers no longer participate on
this
list due to the risk to their livelihoods.
On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 5:45 AM, Shani Evenstein shani.even@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Wikimedia-l,
Rogol has been placed under moderation, but at this point no decision
has
been made to ban him from the list. As long as his messages are
reasonable,
respectful and on point, his messages will go through. We agreed that
it
is
important to allow a diversity of voices to be heard, including those
of
"frequent flyers" in the list, especially as we work collaboratively on next steps towards a healthier community atmosphere.
In addition, we are asking everyone to refrain from focusing on
specific
individuals posting to the list, put any personal issues aside and stay
on
problem. We want as many people as possible to productively and
objectively
participate in the discussion, till we draft clearer guidelines for
posting
to the list. We are aware that these guidelines will not automagically
fix
all of our issues as a global community, but we believe they will help reduce the noise substantially. Do keep on debating. We are trying to intervene as little as possible at this point and let the debate run
its
course.
Best, Shani Evenstein, on behalf of the Wikimedia-l Admins.
On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 8:52 PM, James Salsman jsalsman@gmail.com
wrote:
Why are we having this RFC prior to the survey which was discussed at length less than a year ago?
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:James_Salsman#Peri odic_survey_prototype
On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Robert Fernandez wikigamaliel@gmail.com wrote:
Since Rogol has followed through on his threat he should be banned
from
the
list, or we should have a public statement from the moderators
regarding
why they will not do so.
I can't imagine many actions that would have a more chilling effect
on
participation here than one of this list's most frequent posters
contacting
your employer because he disagrees with what you have to say.
On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 7:57 AM, Joseph Seddon <
jseddon@wikimedia.org
wrote:
Since you kindly emailed my line manage Rogol, I wanted to confirm
that my
choice of words were very carefully chosen.
And I stand by them.
Seddon
On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 8:25 PM, Rogol Domedonfors <
domedonfors@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Joseph > > I chose my wording quite carefully, and suggest that you do so
too.
I
said > that the proposal "involves", not "is equal to" real-life
identity
To
the > extent that real-life identities are involved, it is reasonable
to
ask
how > that personal information is going to be handled. For some
reason,
you
> seem keen to derail that part of the discussion by elevating a
quibble
over > your hasty misunderstanding of my wording into an accusation,
which I
> reject, of generalised misconduct. If you have some comment to
make
about > the handling of personal information, please do so. > > May I suggest that you withdraw your original posting, apologise
to
the
> membership of this list for the unconstructive nature of your
posting,
and > to me for its aggressive, insulting and incorrect content. Alternatively, > perhaps you would prefer me to ask your line manager whether this
is
the
> sort of behaviour that she expects you to exhibit in a public
forum.
> > Reginald > > On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 8:07 PM, Joseph Seddon <
jseddon@wikimedia.org>
> wrote: > > > Real identity does not equal real-life identity. You can mask
your
> > pseudonymous identity and pose as a third party similarly
pseudonymous
> > individual. > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet) > > > > Seddon > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma
ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsu
bscribe>
> > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma
ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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unsubscribe>
>
-- Seddon
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