Yes, this is all true. What I tried to stress is that: it doesn't matter
what
muslim sect you're in, what language you speak, or whether you live in
indonesia or in syria .. if your perception of the world is that muslims are
ill-treated and that the west is bulling the rest of the world, you don't
need
to have strong feelings about the depiction taboo, nor be a religious
fanatic
in order to fell that the cartoons are a final insult to the general group
of
people ("civilization") you feel you belong to, and another instance of
"western arrogance". Yes, some will feel this less, some more, but
everybody will feel it to some extent (given they view the world in
this way).
r.
On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 3:40 PM, Dan Rosenthal <swatjester(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I appreciate your comparison you're drawing
Robert, but the instant
case has significant differences.
First of all, not all muslims are in third world countries, by far.
Second, muslims speak dozens of different languages from arabic, to
farsi, to (british) english, to (american) english, french, various
indian and pakistani languages, various indonesian and malaysian
languages, etc. Each of these muslims regions have their own
literature, dress, movies, schools, and culture. They're all
interconnected by the broader Muslim Ummah, but individually they are
all different. Even within their own religion there are Sunni, Shia,
Sufi, Wahabi, etc. It's very difficult to say that third-world
countries are stirring up this controversy. When I was in Iraq, I met
many muslims who were so far from devout they could care less whether
Muhammed was in a cartoon, they were drinking and eating during
ramadan, etc. I've also met the exact opposite, muslims who are
extremely devout, and would be horribly offended by any breach of
their religion, however slight.
And therein lies the problem: people trying to speak for a fractious,
heterogenous group of peoples with widely divergent customs and
beliefs. It is, in my opinion, not possible for people to say "Muslims
believe X". Which muslims? Which sect? In which country? The clerics?
What about the population at large? Is there opposition? No, it's
impossible to speak for all Muslims on this issue, and to do so is
frankly absurd. It's one of the reasons that the petition to remove
the images is receiving so much opposition.
-Dan
On Feb 21, 2008, at 9:13 AM, Robert Stojnic wrote:
Not long ago when I was randomly browsing through
a mosque's library
in middle east, I found a children's book about Islam, and I remember
seeing people in it.. E.g. when Muhammad was leaving Mecca there
was a picture of *some guy* on a donkey followed by people.. There
wasn't exactly an arrow point to him saying Muhammad, but it was
pretty
clear from context..
So, my impression is that the pictures are not huge taboo unless
they are
misused. Now, how can a single pictures stir some much controversy?
Well, for that to understand you need to try to put yourself in a
third-world
position. So, imagine, that western culture is not dominant in the
world,
imagine it's chinese. And, all your kids read chinese literature,
dress
chinese way, write in chinese script (since roman is no longer cool),
watch chinese movies, learn chinese in school, look at chinese
websites,
etc... And imagine that only thing that keeps you as community is your
religion considered by china as barbaric, and you as possible
terrorist and second-class citizen... and that somewhere in
well-off china, someone posts cartoons of baby jesus being pissed
on by buddha and confucius... Would you be offended? Would it be
by the picture itself, or by it representing a symbol of humiliation
and
power of the first-world to desecrate even the things you find most
sacred and all in the name of free-speech?
I'm not trying to advocate anything, just to draw a picture of how
I've
seen people feel - which not might be fully representative, but might
give some insight ..
r.
On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 1:16 AM, Dan Rosenthal
<swatjester(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Nada,
I'm not sure you're representing the position accurately of Shiite
muslims. Far from all muslims take offense. Many, but not all Sunnis
do, and some, but not nearly as many Shiite's do. Furthermore, I'm
not
sure I believe you are in a position to state that there will be no
demonstrations. There have already been demonstrations, as reported
in
the news. You cannot predict the future, and is both folly and
dangerous to give assurances that you have no ability to uphold.
Finally, I would appreciate that the conference organizers not
dismiss
something that potentially could affect the safety of conference
goers, and not assume that skepticism and criticism equates to poor
knowledge of Islamic belief, or uncivilized behavior. That was
dangerously prevelant within the Alexandria bid team during the
Wikimania bids, it's dangerously prevalent in Egypt's demonstrations
(and official state action, no less) today, and it seems borderline
prevalent in the tone of your post.
When the government of the country that we are hosting a major
conference in, completely bans the sale of foreign newspapers for
displaying pictures of Muhammed, and chastises the ambassadors from
other countries for doing so, we have every right to be concerned
about the status and safety of Wikimania. And we have every right to
express our dismay in the heavy-handed censorship displayed by the
Egyptian government, censorship which is fundamentally opposed to
Wikimedia principles.
-Dan
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