Yes, this is all true. What I tried to stress is that: it doesn't matter what muslim sect you're in, what language you speak, or whether you live in indonesia or in syria .. if your perception of the world is that muslims are ill-treated and that the west is bulling the rest of the world, you don't need to have strong feelings about the depiction taboo, nor be a religious fanatic in order to fell that the cartoons are a final insult to the general group of people ("civilization") you feel you belong to, and another instance of "western arrogance". Yes, some will feel this less, some more, but everybody will feel it to some extent (given they view the world in this way).
r.
On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 3:40 PM, Dan Rosenthal swatjester@gmail.com wrote:
I appreciate your comparison you're drawing Robert, but the instant case has significant differences.
First of all, not all muslims are in third world countries, by far. Second, muslims speak dozens of different languages from arabic, to farsi, to (british) english, to (american) english, french, various indian and pakistani languages, various indonesian and malaysian languages, etc. Each of these muslims regions have their own literature, dress, movies, schools, and culture. They're all interconnected by the broader Muslim Ummah, but individually they are all different. Even within their own religion there are Sunni, Shia, Sufi, Wahabi, etc. It's very difficult to say that third-world countries are stirring up this controversy. When I was in Iraq, I met many muslims who were so far from devout they could care less whether Muhammed was in a cartoon, they were drinking and eating during ramadan, etc. I've also met the exact opposite, muslims who are extremely devout, and would be horribly offended by any breach of their religion, however slight.
And therein lies the problem: people trying to speak for a fractious, heterogenous group of peoples with widely divergent customs and beliefs. It is, in my opinion, not possible for people to say "Muslims believe X". Which muslims? Which sect? In which country? The clerics? What about the population at large? Is there opposition? No, it's impossible to speak for all Muslims on this issue, and to do so is frankly absurd. It's one of the reasons that the petition to remove the images is receiving so much opposition.
-Dan
On Feb 21, 2008, at 9:13 AM, Robert Stojnic wrote:
Not long ago when I was randomly browsing through a mosque's library in middle east, I found a children's book about Islam, and I remember seeing people in it.. E.g. when Muhammad was leaving Mecca there was a picture of *some guy* on a donkey followed by people.. There wasn't exactly an arrow point to him saying Muhammad, but it was pretty clear from context.. So, my impression is that the pictures are not huge taboo unless they are misused. Now, how can a single pictures stir some much controversy? Well, for that to understand you need to try to put yourself in a third-world position. So, imagine, that western culture is not dominant in the world, imagine it's chinese. And, all your kids read chinese literature, dress chinese way, write in chinese script (since roman is no longer cool), watch chinese movies, learn chinese in school, look at chinese websites, etc... And imagine that only thing that keeps you as community is your religion considered by china as barbaric, and you as possible terrorist and second-class citizen... and that somewhere in well-off china, someone posts cartoons of baby jesus being pissed on by buddha and confucius... Would you be offended? Would it be by the picture itself, or by it representing a symbol of humiliation and power of the first-world to desecrate even the things you find most sacred and all in the name of free-speech? I'm not trying to advocate anything, just to draw a picture of how I've seen people feel - which not might be fully representative, but might give some insight ..
r.
On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 1:16 AM, Dan Rosenthal swatjester@gmail.com wrote:
Nada,
I'm not sure you're representing the position accurately of Shiite muslims. Far from all muslims take offense. Many, but not all Sunnis do, and some, but not nearly as many Shiite's do. Furthermore, I'm not sure I believe you are in a position to state that there will be no demonstrations. There have already been demonstrations, as reported in the news. You cannot predict the future, and is both folly and dangerous to give assurances that you have no ability to uphold.
Finally, I would appreciate that the conference organizers not dismiss something that potentially could affect the safety of conference goers, and not assume that skepticism and criticism equates to poor knowledge of Islamic belief, or uncivilized behavior. That was dangerously prevelant within the Alexandria bid team during the Wikimania bids, it's dangerously prevalent in Egypt's demonstrations (and official state action, no less) today, and it seems borderline prevalent in the tone of your post.
When the government of the country that we are hosting a major conference in, completely bans the sale of foreign newspapers for displaying pictures of Muhammed, and chastises the ambassadors from other countries for doing so, we have every right to be concerned about the status and safety of Wikimania. And we have every right to express our dismay in the heavy-handed censorship displayed by the Egyptian government, censorship which is fundamentally opposed to Wikimedia principles.
-Dan
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